The Eternal Son

[praise_yeshua]

If a couple adopts an infant and raises the boy to manhood … do they, or do they not have a father/son relationship?

The relationship transcends mere origin.

The Spirit of Adoption.... "Abba Father". Glorious.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? (Prov. 30:4 NKJ)

This was clearly before the Incarnation.

Just FYI. Bad manuscript.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would read that as, no one Jesus is currently addressing.

It's quite apparent people have heard the Father's voice many times in Scripture.

How are such voices different.

If you've heard the Father, you heard the Son. If you've heard the Father, you've heard the Spirit.

There is no division in their voice. They speak the same things. Their words are identical to one another. The paradox exists only in the natural.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Holy Spirit also is generated from the Father timelessly in eternity.

Just like Eve was taken from Adam's side.

Wisdom the first of all his works.

If you would remove this "timelessly" nonsense from your theology it would help you tremendously.

Eternal isn't the absence of time.

The KJV uses a more fitting expression.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Others expresses the same words as "ever and ever".

 

[civic]

IMO there always was a Trinity. But I refuse to hint that those who do or don't believe The Son was from eternity past
would in anyway somehow not be Trinitarians.

I will admit to believing that the Father and Son existed in eternity past but I bet my reasons are different from yours @civic

The Old Testament tells is God was referred to as Father... but only scant references to a son.

Many Christians believe that calling the Creator of Heaven and Earth, with the title “Father” is only seen in the New Testament. Some believe and teach that God Almighty was distant to His people in the Old Testament, but came into a ‘Father-Son’ relationship only after the appearance of Yeshua (Jesus’ true name). Are these claims true? Was calling God by the title “Father” a new teaching?

Let’s look at the eye-opening evidence in the Scriptures, and what they point to.


Not only is God Almighty known as the “Father”, He calls His people as “Children”


Conclusion
Calling God as “Our Father”, is not a new idea only seen in the New Testament. It is a recurring depiction of the close relationship between the Creator and His people, commonly seen in the Old Testament. Yeshua and the New Testament writers did not invent this idea. Rather they built upon the thought of having such a loving Creator, who was willing to call His creation “His Children”. Our Heavenly Father has, and will not change. He has always seen the ones who love Him as Children, and His people have also understood their Creator to be a loving Father from ancient times. I hope you are empowered with Scripture, to show the truth to people who say, that God has changed and that He came into a “Father – Son” relationship only in the New Testament.

Added on 25th July 2016
As there has been some objections raised against the view that “Our Father” was used before and after Yeshua’s Ministry on earth (even by Jews who did not believe in Yeshua as Messiah) – I present the following references. The reason for such is not to demean the ministry or teachings of Yeshua, but to remove the misconception that the Jewish people have never viewed or spoken of God as their Father.

“Our Father” is common place in the Jewish Extra-biblical writings. (references are also provided)


1. Babylonian Talmud written in 3rd to 5th Centuries AD, Ta’anit 25b it says “Our Father, our King, we have no king but you! Our Father, our King, on your own account have mercy on us!”. This prayer was recited on the 10 days of Awe (leading to the Day of Atonement).


2. The Mishnah which contains the teachings of the early rabbis, relates that before the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70AD Jews used to pray “Upon whom shall we depend? Upon Our Father who is in heaven”. (Mishnah Sotah 9:15)

3. Another Jewish Prayer says “May it be the will of our Father in Heaven” (Midrash Psalms 25:13 – Buber edition Page 214)

4. The Jewish sage Ben Sira, 200 years before Yeshua, prayed “O Lord, Father and Master of my life… O Lord, Father and God of my life” (Ben Sira 23:1,4). Also “Lord you are my Father; do not forsake me in the days of trouble, when there is no help against the proud” (Ben Sira 51:10)

5. In a fragment of The Dead Sea Scrolls (written hundreds of years before Yeshua) was found the title “Our Father” (4Q511 fragment 127 line 1)

So, I will close for now with the comment that I can see and understand why, with the love God showed in the old testament and calling them HIs children and they called Him Father that that most likely had to have been with everything in eternity past.

Even to the point of God calling the Word his Son before the incarnation of Jesus.

I will accept this, until I find differently.

Certainly this explains why Jesus referred to the Father as the Father so often, because it appears to have been the
thing to do and he was carrying the idea forward to the Gentiles as they were being incorporated with the Jews.

The Trinity is eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is no getting around that biblical and historical fact.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Remember in Hebrews 1 it’s the Son who is declared to be before all things and created the world. See also Hebrews 1:8-10.

Brother, the reason why is simple, because he was before all things! Jesus Christ in his divine nature, is the everlasting Father of all things.

Colossians 1:16​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Jesus Christ is the God of Genesis 1:1, without any qualifications whatsoever, in his eternal divine nature, the mighty God of the holy scriptures. If Jessu Christ in his divine nature was before all things and he was, then NO one is before him according to his divine nature as God.

 

[DavidTree]

The Trinity is eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is no getting around that biblical and historical fact.

There is no getting around that biblical and historical fact.

That's just it = we have been given Biblical and Historical facts as to when the Word that was God became flesh/Son.

Please post the OT Scripture that declares a Son begotten from Eternity.

This is the same as 'pre-trib' rapture = no such thing ever came Out of God's Mouth

@praise_yeshua and @civic you know that we are not against each other but rather seeking "It is written"

 

[civic]

@civic

Brother, the reason why is simple, because he was before all things! Jesus Christ in his divine nature, is the everlasting Father of all things.

Colossians 1:16​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Jesus Christ is the God of Genesis 1:1, without any qualifications whatsoever, in his eternal divine nature, the mighty God of the holy scriptures. If Jessu Christ in his divine nature was before all things and he was, then NO one is before him according to his divine nature as God.

There was no Jesus or Messiah prior to the Incarnation since both of those descriptions are human , His humanity which did not exist prior to the conception in Mary’s womb. The One who existed prior is not human and identified as the Son who created all things. Theology 101. Christianity 101, Christology 101, Trinity 101, sound doctrine 101.

I can quote many resound Calvinist theologians in your camp that support me 100%.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist
Greetings ~ @FreeInChrist

Romans 3:28 KJV 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

It is true legally. Only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is our "only" legally means of free justification before the law of of God.

James 2:24 KJV 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I just made a posit on this scripture last week, let me see if I can find it after I have a couple of meetings.

There's thread addressing these two scriptures. Later....RB

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's just it = we have been given Biblical and Historical facts as to when the Word that was God became flesh/Son.

Please post the OT Scripture that declares a Son begotten from Eternity.

This is the same as 'pre-trib' rapture = no such thing ever came Out of God's Mouth

@praise_yeshua and @civic you know that we are not against each other but rather seeking "It is written"

I believe you're conflating a little here.

@civic mentioned Dan 3:25.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Daniel is complicated in the Greek edition. Historically, there are varying collections. Chapter 3 is much different across collections. However, this verse is unique it is often found in collections in verse 91 or 92. In such, it speaks of a "divine angel"? A title relative to the Divinity of Christ.

"begotten" is a little of a "loaded" word when it comes to theology. How do you see the word "begotten" or μονογενής

μονογενής speaks of the "sole heir"

 

[praise_yeshua]

There was no Jesus or Messiah prior to the Incarnation since both of those descriptions are human , His humanity which did not exist prior to the conception in Mary’s womb. The One who existed prior is not human and identified as the Son who created all things. Theology 101. Christianity 101, Christology 101, Trinity 101, sound doctrine 101.

I can quote many resound Calvinist theologians in your camp that support me 100%.

hope this helps !!!

Oh what a wonderous humbling of the Servant.

 

[civic]

I believe you're conflating a little here.

@civic mentioned Dan 3:25.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Daniel is complicated in the Greek edition. Historically, there are varying collections. Chapter 3 is much different across collections. However, this verse is unique it is often found in collections in verse 91 or 92. In such, it speaks of a "divine angel"? A title relative to the Divinity of Christ.

"begotten" is a little of a "loaded" word when it comes to theology. How do you see the word "begotten" or μονογενής

μονογενής speaks of the "sole heir"

Yes I have a really good thread with sources for monogenes

 

[civic]

Oh what a wonderous humbling of the Servant.

Amen

 

[civic]

I believe you're conflating a little here.

@civic mentioned Dan 3:25.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Daniel is complicated in the Greek edition. Historically, there are varying collections. Chapter 3 is much different across collections. However, this verse is unique it is often found in collections in verse 91 or 92. In such, it speaks of a "divine angel"? A title relative to the Divinity of Christ.

"begotten" is a little of a "loaded" word when it comes to theology. How do you see the word "begotten" or μονογενής

μονογενής speaks of the "sole heir"

Here is the thread

Thread 'Monogenes the real biblical,theological and lexical meaning.'

Sep 25, 2023

Mono-genes Kittle
"only-begotten [Mono-genes]

Usage outside the New Testament: In compounds like [Greek] suggests derivation [Greek] rather than birth. Nouns as the first part of the compound give the source, e.g., from Zeus, the earth. Adverbs describe the nature of the derivation, e.g., noble or common. Mono-genes is to be explained along the lines [Greek], rather than [Greek]. The genes does not denote the source (footnote: "Deriving from one alone" would be meaningless) but the nature of derivation. Hence Mono-genes, means "of sole descent," i.e., without brothers or sisters. This gives...

• civic
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Christology

• 
• 

 

[FreeInChrist]

What is His name, and what is His Son's name, If you know? (Prov. 30:4 NKJ)

This was clearly before the Incarnation.

3 Nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended?

 

[FreeInChrist]

@civic

Brother, the reason why is simple, because he was before all things! Jesus Christ in his divine nature, is the everlasting Father of all things.

Doesn't that deny the Trinity? If "Jesus Christ in his divine nature, is the everlasting Father of all things." That means they are a single spirit. Therefore at the very best you can have a twosome in the Godhead?

Colossians 1:16​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

Jesus Christ is the God of Genesis 1:1, without any qualifications whatsoever, in his eternal divine nature, the mighty God of the holy scriptures. If Jessu Christ in his divine nature was before all things and he was, then NO one is before him according to his divine nature as God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Doesn't that deny the Trinity? If "Jesus Christ in his divine nature, is the everlasting Father of all things." That means they are a single spirit. Therefore at the very best you can have a twosome in the Godhead?

Probably a version of "Oneness" of some sort.

 

[DavidTree]

I believe you're conflating a little here.

@civic mentioned Dan 3:25.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Daniel is complicated in the Greek edition. Historically, there are varying collections. Chapter 3 is much different across collections. However, this verse is unique it is often found in collections in verse 91 or 92. In such, it speaks of a "divine angel"? A title relative to the Divinity of Christ.

"begotten" is a little of a "loaded" word when it comes to theology. How do you see the word "begotten" or μονογενής

μονογενής speaks of the "sole heir"

Daniel 3:25

This is a scripture passage that we are looking for concerning this topic - Thank You @civic

What are we looking at here in this passage???

Is it a definitive "eternal begotten Son" or are we seeing Prophecy???

ty @praise_yeshua

 

[civic]

That's just it = we have been given Biblical and Historical facts as to when the Word that was God became flesh/Son.

Please post the OT Scripture that declares a Son begotten from Eternity.

This is the same as 'pre-trib' rapture = no such thing ever came Out of God's Mouth

@praise_yeshua and @civic you know that we are not against each other but rather seeking "It is written"

He became a son via the Incarnation when the Eternal Son who is also known as the Word, YHWH, the Angel of the Lord and several other names, descriptions and titles. But the definition of the Trinity- the Eternal God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit- 3 Divine Persons who have always existed, created all things and are the Eternal Godhead. God never became the Eternal Father, He always was, the Son never became the Eternal Son, He always was-has been.

There is no escaping the many scriptures I have referenced identifying the Sons preexistence before the Incarnation. I have provided well over 2 dozen from both Testaments proclaiming both the Father/Sons eternality.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavidTree]

He became a son via the Incarnation when the Eternal Son who is also known as the Word, YHWH, the Angel of the Lord and several other names, descriptions and titles. But the definition of the Trinity- the Eternal God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit- 3 Divine Persons who have always existed, created all things and are the Eternal Godhead. God never became the Eternal Father, He always was, the Son never became the Eternal Son, He always was-has been.

There is no escaping the many scriptures I have referenced identifying the Sons preexistence before the Incarnation. I have provided well over 2 dozen from both Testaments proclaiming both the Father/Sons eternality.

hope this helps !!!

The scriptures declaring Elohim as Father/Son/Holy Spirit are for mankind and for the angels to SEE/Learn

This is the only way in which Elohim can communicate at our level hear on earth, as part of His Creation.

A.) The Scripture only begins with the Creation
B.) The scripture does not begin with Eternity
C.) The Scripture declares a Eternal Elohim who is the Creator at the point of Elohim creating.
D.) Pre-Creation = No scriptures exist or inform us of Who Elohim actually is apart from Spirit/Eternal/Creator/Plural of 3

There is no escaping the many scriptures I have referenced identifying the Sons preexistence before the Incarnation.

Please expedite this for me: please list the post #s so that i can quickly review = ty Brother