The Elect

[praise_yeshua]

Make up your mind lol it’s flip flopping

It that 1+1 math that children us to try and get their way.

You know the "you said I could have ice cream" while leaving out there is more to the story.....

 

[synergy]

Have you compared these verses?

Matthew 11:28 (ESV): "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

That's an invitation. Where do you see "Irresistible Grace" here?

Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

In Matthew 5, I don't see any conditions. Jesus doesn't say, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven if they choose to believe".

The condition is that they have to "come to me". Without that happening, nothing is going to happen.

So, the question would be, who are the poor in spirit, who are those who mourn, the gentle, and those who hunger and thirst for righteousness -- and how did they get that way?

A whole assortment of ways. Each Believer has a testimony of his own of how he came to believe in Christ. Nevertheless, one has to "come to me". It ain't going to happen any other way.

 

[civic]

That's an invitation. Where do you see "Irresistible Grace" here?

The condition is that they have to "come to me". Without that happening, nothing is going to happen.

A whole assortment of ways. Each Believer has a testimony of his own of how he came to believe in Christ. Nevertheless, one has to "come to me". It ain't going to happen any other way.

Exactly

 

[TomL]

I've seen on here someone who says Jesus is the elect, not believers. 1 Thessalonians says otherwise:

NKJV
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

NIV
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you

Election is in Christ

Outside of Christ there is no election to salvation

 

[civic]

Election is in Christ

Outside of Christ there is no election to salvation

Yep they are elected outside of Christ since they are the worthy sinners

 

[Rockson]

John 3:19-20 (ESV): "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

That means one who chooses to retain doing wicked things. All can choose to come into the light without a concept of irresistible grace.

 

[synergy]

Yep they are elected outside of Christ since they are the worthy sinners

Come to think of it, Calvinism has incorporated several foundational elements of Hinduism. Calvinists believe that God maintains a caste system, elect verses non-elect in their case. Also, enlightenment is a strong element of their beliefs.

 

[civic]

Come to think of it, Calvinism has incorporated several foundational elements of Hinduism. Calvinists believe that God maintains a caste system, elect verses non-elect in their case. Also, enlightenment is a strong element of their beliefs.

ie regeneration which is mystical like in Hinduism

 

[Johann]

That means one who chooses to retain doing wicked things. All can choose to come into the light without a concept of irresistible grace.

I agree-but the natural inclination of the man is to NOT come to the Light so that his/their evil deeds may be exposed. Correct @Rockson?
I am not a Calvinist, I follow Christ Jesus so I don't hold to "irresistible" grace-but what stands written.
I enjoy your spirit brother-you seem to be open and approachable and like a Berean-this is why I use the cross referencing tool.
I don't know if you have noticed, but Scripture seem to be paradoxical-some clear, some"grey" and the Jewish Sages calls it a Sod or a Pardesh, D'rash etc.
I am still learning and don't have it neatly tucked.
Johann.
Just call me if I could be of assistance, more than willing to do so.

 

[Rockson]

Matthew 5:3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

In Matthew 5, I don't see any conditions. Jesus doesn't say, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven if they choose to believe".

This is nonsense. Jesus doesn't have to put in such conditions for he's expecting his listeners not to run away playing a silly game with words that don't make sense. Does Jesus have to put out an amplified, amplified, amplified version for ever statement he makes?

We'll have some fun here. Let's make up a blessed statement and then make up one you would insist upon seeing,

Blessed are those who show up on time for they are the ones who'll get a paycheck.

Now here's what you'd insist to have to see,

Blessed are those who show up at work on time, who get out of bed, get dressed, get in their car, drive down this street and that, for they are the ones who'll get the paycheck.

Because all those statements weren't made in the first line such doesn't mean they had to be. God did not have to say if they choose to believe in order for it all to be true. So let's not be silly!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree-but the natural inclination of the man is to NOT come to the Light so that his/their evil deeds may be exposed. Correct @Rockson?
I am not a Calvinist, I follow Christ Jesus so I don't hold to "irresistible" grace-but what stands written.
I enjoy your spirit brother-you seem to be open and approachable and like a Berean-this is why I use the cross referencing tool.
I don't know if you have noticed, but Scripture seem to be paradoxical-some clear, some"grey" and the Jewish Sages calls it a Sod or a Pardesh, D'rash etc.
I am still learning and don't have it neatly tucked.
Johann.
Just call me if I could be of assistance, more than willing to do so.

Quote "natural inclination" anywhere from the Scriptures.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree-but the natural inclination of the man is to NOT come to the Light so that his/their evil deeds may be exposed. Correct @Rockson?
I am not a Calvinist, I follow Christ Jesus so I don't hold to "irresistible" grace-but what stands written.
I enjoy your spirit brother-you seem to be open and approachable and like a Berean-this is why I use the cross referencing tool.
I don't know if you have noticed, but Scripture seem to be paradoxical-some clear, some"grey" and the Jewish Sages calls it a Sod or a Pardesh, D'rash etc.
I am still learning and don't have it neatly tucked.
Johann.
Just call me if I could be of assistance, more than willing to do so.

Just to be clear..... Read all of what Jesus said.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[TomL]

Yep they are elected outside of Christ since they are the worthy sinners

Born better than others

 

[civic]

Born better than others

Filled with pride at birth

 

[charismaticlady]

1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

the natural man
*Jud 1:19 These are those who cause divisions and are sensual, not having the Spirit.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:46 However, that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.

Jas 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, sensual, and demonic.

receiveth
*Mt 13:11-17 [11] He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them. [12] For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he has. [13] Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand. [14] In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive; [15] for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again, and I would heal them.’ [16] “But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. [17] For most certainly I tell you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which you see, and didn’t see them; and to hear the things which you hear, and didn’t hear them.

*Ro 8:5-8 [5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [6] For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; [7] because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. [8] Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

Mt 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.”

Jn 3:3-6 [3] Jesus answered him, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.” [4] Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” [5] Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jn 8:43 Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.

Jn 10:26-27 [26] But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Jn 12:37 But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they didn’t believe in him,


How is it the natural man CAN understand and respond to the gospel when Scriptures says -not so?

The natural man can understand the Ten Commandments and all the other laws of the Old Covenant. They can also understand that the perfection that is demanded is impossible for them to achieve. The law shows us how sinful we were when we cried out to Jesus to save us from ourselves. And now we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit and are clean. Our nature has been cleansed and all desire to commit sins unto death have been taken away from us. Now all that is left is maturing in all the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Johann]

The natural man can understand the Ten Commandments and all the other laws of the Old Covenant. They can also understand that the perfection that is demanded is impossible for them to achieve. The law shows us how sinful we were when we cried out to Jesus to save us from ourselves. And now we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit and are clean. Our nature has been cleansed and all desire to commit sins unto death have been taken away from us. Now all that is left is maturing in all the fruit of the Spirit.

With God anything is possible.

 

[TomL]

1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

the natural man
*Jud 1:19 These are those who cause divisions and are sensual, not having the Spirit.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.

1Co 15:46 However, that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.

Jas 3:15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, sensual, and demonic.

receiveth
*Mt 13:11-17 [11] He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them. [12] For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he has. [13] Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand. [14] In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive; [15] for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again, and I would heal them.’ [16] “But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. [17] For most certainly I tell you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things which you see, and didn’t see them; and to hear the things which you hear, and didn’t hear them.

*Ro 8:5-8 [5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [6] For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; [7] because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. [8] Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

Mt 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.”

Jn 3:3-6 [3] Jesus answered him, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can’t see God’s Kingdom.” [4] Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” [5] Jesus answered, “Most certainly I tell you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he can’t enter into God’s Kingdom. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jn 8:43 Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.

Jn 10:26-27 [26] But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Jn 12:37 But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they didn’t believe in him,


How is it the natural man CAN understand and respond to the gospel when Scriptures says -not so?

It is not talking about revealed data, but data hidden in the mind of God. The aposdtles had the mind of christ so they could reveal this data and communicate it to us

Scripture never states man cannot understand the gospel

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Behold]

Incorrect-
Next--

Its not incorrect.
I read exactly what you wrote and took note of it, because i always hope you'll stop following whatever man you follow next, which is always reflected by how you try to get people on forums to "take a look at what this one teaches".. "take a look at what this next one says'..

Ive seen you do this for over 2 yrs.. @Johann

np.
help yourself.

 

[civic]

It is not talking about revealed data, but data hidden in the mind of God. The aposdtles had the mind of christ so they could reveal this data and communicate it to us

Scripture never states man cannot understand the gospel

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes the 4 soils taught by Jesus makes it clear anyone can understand the gospel.

 

[TomL]

Yes the 4 soils taught by Jesus makes it clear anyone can understand the gospel.

As does many other passages