The difference between knowing God and knowing about God

Do you know God personally and how can you prove you know Him personally or do you just know facts about Him from what you read in the bible or what a preacher has told you about God ?

Christ said there comes days that real believers are murdered by those who think they know and serve God.

You cannot "prove" to someone you know God if they have hardened their heart—only God himself can witness to that.

But we can "examine ourselves" as Scripture says, and look for the Spirit "bearing witness."

That said, there are ways to examine ourselves:

1. The degrees we admitted our impurity and allow convicting of our sinfulness.
2. Our willingness to accept truths we do not like and put God above our personal preferences.
3. The sincerity with which we seek God in the amount of effort in putting him first.
4. The faithfulness over time and past endurance and trust we have shown.
5. The extent we honor the Holy Scriptures and seek to know God within them.
6. The genuineness of our willingness to love unlovable people and sacrifice for them.
7. The personal expressions of God's paramount worth to our hearts.
8. Those unique times God specially and supernaturally manifests his character and glory.
9. A constant and earnest prayer for guidance, humility and wisdom.
10. Looking back at the faithfulness of God over our past.


Ultimately, we must seek God until we are sure beyond a doubt we have found him and know him.
 
You are no different than every other religion like the Catholics who work their way into heaven or like the Pharisees Jesus always rebukes for their self righteous and pious works based salvation.

Your anger towards others who believe in God's Word more than this world's religious philosophies you are promoting, is nothing new and has been going on since Cain and Abel. And your resentment towards the Word of God is also shown by "your works", since even now you relegate God's Judgments and Commandments as no different than man-made Catholic Traditions.

And your insistence that the Pharisees were trying to please God by obeying Him is an insidious lie, shown to you over and over again by the very Words of the Christ you claim to love. And yet you are still promoting it. Why?

And Jesus NEVER rebuked the Pharisees for obedience or respect or honor towards His God and Father, or His Instruction in righteousness. In fact, the only spirit in the entire scriptures, that rebuked, belittled, persecuted or ridiculed a person who "Yielded themselves" a servant to obey God, was the prince of this world, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." The Pharisees were not trying to earn their way into heaven, by following God's Instruction on how to enter heaven. That is just another in the vast ocean of falsehoods promoted by this world's religious system that you have adopted, and are now promoting to others.

The Jesus "of the Bible" rebuked men who "professed to know God", but were disobedient to Him. I can't make you believe this undeniable Biblical truth, I can't make you engage in an honest discussion about them. I can only point them out and suffer your ridicule for doing so. It is an honor for me to be belittled for simply believing the Word of God, over the doctrines, traditions and philosophies promoted by this world's religions.

You don’t understand faith and how the just shall live by faith

Perhaps you are right, if so, then if I am "Thinking I Stand, I should "Take Heed" lest I fall. How can I know for sure that I know God, and not just know about Him? I posted HIS Answer to that very question, and you couldn't find it in your heart to even acknowledge the Words existed, much less examine them. Given this and other "fruits" that you offer, why should I listen to you, or "got,questions" or the BBS, over what God's Word actually says?

But I DO KNOW that Jesus never rebuked any person, ever, not when HE was the Spirit of Christ, the Holy One of Israel feeding Abraham, Caleb and David, Zacharias and Simeon, and not after HE became flesh and blood in the person of the Jesus "of the Bible". The teaching you promote almost every day on this forum, that the Pharisees were rebuked and rejected by the Lord's Christ "BECAUSE" they were striving to obey God's Laws is an insidious and wicked falsehood Civic.

I really wish you would stop peddling it to other peoples children.


Your faith is in your works not the One who works in men via the Holy Spirit who produces the good fruit , works.

Again, this is not true. My Faith is in the Works of the Christ "of the Bible", through whom His Father created the worlds. If I had faith in the works of men, I would adopt your religion, and help finance it, and promote your philosophy and you would like me, and say nice things about me.

According to what is actually written in Scriptures, God is a Spirit, a Holy Spirit. If God says, "Keep My Commandments", and I turn from my ways, and "Yield Myself" a servant to obey Him, then it is no longer my works that I live by, but His Works, via His Spirit that dwells in me. Paul tells you that you are a servant to "whom you yield yourself a servant to obey", but you don't believe him. If you did, you would understand that a man that yields himself a servant to obey Armenian doctrine, or a man that "yield himself" a servant to obey Catholic doctrine, or a man that yields himself to obey Calvinist doctrine, are servants to those religions. They support financially, those religions, they promote to others the philosophies and traditions of those religions, in the exact same way that a man who "yielded himself" a servant to obey the Pharisees religion, lived by and promoted the traditions and philosophies of the Pharisees religion.

Since, by the Grace of God, I have "come out of" this world's religious system, I can see this, just as Paul could see, once he left the mainstream religious system of the world God placed him in, just as Caleb could see, Abraham could see, Zacharias could see. And what did I do to receive your rebuke this time? I let the Same Holy Spirit answer your question for me.

1 John 2: 3 And "hereby we do know" that we know him, "if we keep his commandments". 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth "is not in him". 5 But whoso keepeth his word, "in him" verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know" we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And why does this make you so angry?

John 15: 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, "because" they know not him "that sent me".
 
Your anger towards others who believe in God's Word more than this world's religious philosophies you are promoting, is nothing new and has been going on since Cain and Abel. And your resentment towards the Word of God is also shown by "your works", since even now you relegate God's Judgments and Commandments as no different than man-made Catholic Traditions.

And your insistence that the Pharisees were trying to please God by obeying Him is an insidious lie, shown to you over and over again by the very Words of the Christ you claim to love. And yet you are still promoting it. Why?

And Jesus NEVER rebuked the Pharisees for obedience or respect or honor towards His God and Father, or His Instruction in righteousness. In fact, the only spirit in the entire scriptures, that rebuked, belittled, persecuted or ridiculed a person who "Yielded themselves" a servant to obey God, was the prince of this world, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." The Pharisees were not trying to earn their way into heaven, by following God's Instruction on how to enter heaven. That is just another in the vast ocean of falsehoods promoted by this world's religious system that you have adopted, and are now promoting to others.

The Jesus "of the Bible" rebuked men who "professed to know God", but were disobedient to Him. I can't make you believe this undeniable Biblical truth, I can't make you engage in an honest discussion about them. I can only point them out and suffer your ridicule for doing so. It is an honor for me to be belittled for simply believing the Word of God, over the doctrines, traditions and philosophies promoted by this world's religions.



Perhaps you are right, if so, then if I am "Thinking I Stand, I should "Take Heed" lest I fall. How can I know for sure that I know God, and not just know about Him? I posted HIS Answer to that very question, and you couldn't find it in your heart to even acknowledge the Words existed, much less examine them. Given this and other "fruits" that you offer, why should I listen to you, or "got,questions" or the BBS, over what God's Word actually says?

But I DO KNOW that Jesus never rebuked any person, ever, not when HE was the Spirit of Christ, the Holy One of Israel feeding Abraham, Caleb and David, Zacharias and Simeon, and not after HE became flesh and blood in the person of the Jesus "of the Bible". The teaching you promote almost every day on this forum, that the Pharisees were rebuked and rejected by the Lord's Christ "BECAUSE" they were striving to obey God's Laws is an insidious and wicked falsehood Civic.

I really wish you would stop peddling it to other peoples children.




Again, this is not true. My Faith is in the Works of the Christ "of the Bible", through whom His Father created the worlds. If I had faith in the works of men, I would adopt your religion, and help finance it, and promote your philosophy and you would like me, and say nice things about me.

According to what is actually written in Scriptures, God is a Spirit, a Holy Spirit. If God says, "Keep My Commandments", and I turn from my ways, and "Yield Myself" a servant to obey Him, then it is no longer my works that I live by, but His Works, via His Spirit that dwells in me. Paul tells you that you are a servant to "whom you yield yourself a servant to obey", but you don't believe him. If you did, you would understand that a man that yields himself a servant to obey Armenian doctrine, or a man that "yield himself" a servant to obey Catholic doctrine, or a man that yields himself to obey Calvinist doctrine, are servants to those religions. They support financially, those religions, they promote to others the philosophies and traditions of those religions, in the exact same way that a man who "yielded himself" a servant to obey the Pharisees religion, lived by and promoted the traditions and philosophies of the Pharisees religion.

Since, by the Grace of God, I have "come out of" this world's religious system, I can see this, just as Paul could see, once he left the mainstream religious system of the world God placed him in, just as Caleb could see, Abraham could see, Zacharias could see. And what did I do to receive your rebuke this time? I let the Same Holy Spirit answer your question for me.

1 John 2: 3 And "hereby we do know" that we know him, "if we keep his commandments". 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth "is not in him". 5 But whoso keepeth his word, "in him" verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know" we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And why does this make you so angry?

John 15: 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, "because" they know not him "that sent me".
projecting again as I'm not angry at all, I'm just exposing your self righteous works that are suppose to save you.
 
My Faith is in the Works of the Christ "of the Bible", through whom His Father created the worlds.

Do you trust in Christ to suffer what your sins deserve?

Have you put your faith solely in his atonement to save you?
 
projecting again as I'm not angry at all, I'm just exposing your self righteous works that are suppose to save you.

What else would the spirit in you say Civic? You can't speak to the Answer the Christ "of the Bible" gave to your question because you don't believe Him. Just as Paul teaches, "you are a servant to whom you yield yourself to obey". You can't yield yourself a servant to obey God, because your friends, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, will call you self righteous. And those who seek the praise of God, are demeaned by your adopted religion, as trying to earn salvation.

What else can you say?
 
Do you trust in Christ to suffer what your sins deserve?

I believe ALL of the Word's of the Christ "of the bible". Luke 13: 3, I tell you, Nay: but, "except ye repent", ye shall all likewise perish.


Have you put your faith solely in his atonement to save you?

I put my Faith in the Word of God, which is Spirit and Life, to save me. But how can God's Word save me if I don't know God? And how can I know, if I know God, or just know about God?

Shall I ask Civic, who will just ask "got.questions" or google BBS? Or should I actually go to the Word of God? I chose the Word of God, and here is what the Word of God told me.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know "that we know him",

Ok Dizerner, this is it. This is the God's answer to the question asked on this thread, as to "How I can know" if I know God or not?

"if we keep his commandments".

There it is. That is God's Answer to the question

But everyone professes they know God. The Pharisees professed to know God. The Pope, the promoters of Armenian religious philosophy, the promoters of the Calvinist religion, the JW religion, the SDA religion, that Baptists, Mormons, Sadducees Bahi'i, Islam, the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

What does the Spirit of the Christ say about that?

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby "know we" that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as he walked.

So there you have it. Even a child can understand this. But if I believe this, and "Yield myself" to this God, as Paul teaches, I am called by the promoters of this world's religious system, "Self Righteous", a "Legalizer", and "Judaizer", a Unitarian, and I am demeaned and belittled for simply "Yielding myself" to this God, and my body "as instruments of righteousness unto God".

I am accused of not believing in the "atonement" of God, or it is implied that I don't believe the Christ's Suffered for the remission of my sins.

And why is this? I asked the Christ this question as well.

John 15: 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, "because" "they know not him" that sent me.

Shall a man not believe these Words?
 
I am accused of not believing in the "atonement" of God, or it is implied that I don't believe the Christ's Suffered for the remission of my sins.

And why is this? I asked the Christ this question as well.

Why can't you answer a simple yes or no?

The question is straight forward.

We obey his commandments the best we can out of a gift of his grace not to merit heaven or our salvation.

Have you trusted solely and only in Christ suffering what your sins deserved to get to heaven, or not?

We cannot be saved by our own self-righteousness.
 
What else would the spirit in you say Civic? You can't speak to the Answer the Christ "of the Bible" gave to your question because you don't believe Him. Just as Paul teaches, "you are a servant to whom you yield yourself to obey". You can't yield yourself a servant to obey God, because your friends, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, will call you self righteous. And those who seek the praise of God, are demeaned by your adopted religion, as trying to earn salvation.

What else can you say?
The Christ of the Bible is YHWH. You deny an essential belief that is salvific. So you are not fooling anyone.
 
The Christ of the Bible is YHWH. You deny an essential belief that is salvific. So you are not fooling anyone.
Yes, it was the Spirit of Christ who spoke to Abraham, Moses, Noah.

I have never denied that.

If you can't be honest, just don't respond
 
Yes, it was the Spirit of Christ who spoke to Abraham, Moses, Noah.

I have never denied that.

If you can't be honest, just don't respond
You are not being honest . Christ is God/ YHWH. The Creator, the great I Am. The One who appeared to Moses , the One who appeared to Abraham.
 
Why can't you answer a simple yes or no?

It's not a yes or no question.
The question is straight forward.
My answer was straight forward
We obey his commandments the best we can out of a gift of his grace not to merit heaven or our salvation.

Good, then you believe the Spirit of the Christ's Answer to the question of this thread.

Have you trusted solely and only in Christ suffering what your sins deserved to get to heaven, or not?

I already answered your question. According to HIM, if I don't repent of my trespasses and sins, then I am still dead in them. If I am still dead in them, then His Suffering wasn't for me. You guys keep forgetting what the Scriptures actually teach.

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 "Wherein in time past" ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh "in the children of disobedience":

If I adopted a religion who promotes traditions, judgments and commandments of men, while full well rejecting the Commandments of God, then I am dead in trespasses and Sins. If I repent, this would mean separating myself from this religion and their doctrines, traditions and philosophies, and "Yielding myself" instead, to God and become servants of "God's Righteousness", which would show us freedom from Sin. This would mean no longer going about to establish my own righteousness, like the mainstream religions of this world has always done.

We cannot be saved by our own self-righteousness.

This is true. This is why Paul taught the Body of Christ to "Yield themselves" to God, and their members, (eyes, feet, hands) as instruments of Righteousness unto God.

This world's religious system is ignorant of God's Righteousness, and had gone about establishing their own righteousness. This is called "Self-righteous". These religious men reject God's Righteousness and refuses to "Summit to His Righteousness". If you would like to see Paul's teaching on this, I am glad to show you. If I want to see God's righteousness in action, I need look no further than the Jesus "of the Bible". This is confirmed by John who taught the Body of Christ to :"walk" even as HE walked. Surely you understand that ?Jesus Walked in the Judgments, statutes and commandments of God, Yes?

The deceiver would have us believe that "Submitting to God's Righteousness" is pious "self-righteous", and he has his "ministers of righteousness" to demean, belittle and persecute anyone who would yield themselves unto God in this manner.

But the Jesus "of the Bible" saw this coming, and prepared me for it.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, "let no man deceive you": he that doeth righteousness is righteous, "even as" he is righteous.

Paul said the Holy Scriptures is a place that I can trust "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And the Jesus "of the Bible" told me; "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and "his righteousness"; and all these things shall be added unto you. (What to eat, what to drink, etc)

And given what Peter says:

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them "that obey not the gospel of God"? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God"commit the keeping of their souls" to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

So it's not about Merit at all, which is a falsehood to begin with, because the mainstream religion of Jesus time were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Commandments. This is an insidious lie that has led many men astray.

No Diszerner, obedience to God from the heart, is about Love and respect and submission. At least this is what Paul teaches.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present your bodies" a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

The problem is, people are so invested in their religion, the praise of men, their own righteousness, that they are not willing to put them before God.

So there can really be no honest discussion or examination of the Word's God had written specifically for "our sakes no doubt".

Nevertheless, it is good to speak to them anyway.
 
I was posting what the Christ "of the bible" inspired to be written, concerning the exact question you asked.

To know Him is to be joined to Him; being one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


Jesus said this -

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath


Paul says the same thing this way -


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8
 
So it's not about Merit at all, which is a falsehood to begin with, because the mainstream religion of Jesus time were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God's Commandments. This is an insidious lie that has led many men astray.

No, God's holiness demands perfect merit.

He says, if we fail one part of the Law, we are guilt of failing all of it.

You, nor I, can reach this perfection needed to merit heaven.

Therefore all our obedience must be sanctified and atoned for through the merits of Christ as our best still falls short.l

No Diszerner, obedience to God from the heart, is about Love and respect and submission. At least this is what Paul teaches.

Of course, but this is a gift of new life that comes within us naturally, not our self-earned merit.

By the works of the Law NO FLESH shall be justified.

We are not justified through our works.

Cling to the Cross today.
 
You are not being honest . Christ is God/ YHWH. The Creator, the great I Am. The One who appeared to Moses , the One who appeared to Abraham.

Of course, His Father sent Him into this world. "Let there be Light". By Him was everything created, at the Will of His father.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, "hath sent me". 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD "thy God" which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the "way" that thou shouldest go.

The same "way of the Lord" that you reject, and demean and belittle anyone who would strive to Obey Him. The Same "way" you preach to the world, that anyone who strives to enter, is a pious, self-righteous, Legalist, trying to earn salvation by his works.

18 O that thou hadst hearkened "to my commandments"! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Where you go off the deep end, is rejecting the Christ's sayings. And rejecting that this same Christ became a mortal human, in the person of Jesus. And that HE overcame Sin and Temptation, by accessing powers that HE withheld from all other humans, then gave Himself glory for doing what any GOD could do, then made Himself out to be the first human to be raised from the dead, when you preach HE was God and couldn't die in the first place.

John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will "of him that sent me".

When did HE come down from Heaven Civic? Will you answer?

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have "the light of life".

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

Is this not the Same "Light" that spoke to Abraham, to Moses?

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

40 And this is the will "of him that sent me", that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes? Didn't Abraham "See the Son" and believe?

Who gave His Father's Laws to Noah? To Abraham" To Moses? Who created the Temporary Priesthood Law that was to be in place until the man Jesus should come?

Whose Feasts did Jesus Promote, if not His Own.


How I wish you would become renewed in the spirit of your mind, and ask yourself, whose voice "say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you".
 
Of course, His Father sent Him into this world. "Let there be Light". By Him was everything created, at the Will of His father.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, "hath sent me". 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD "thy God" which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the "way" that thou shouldest go.

The same "way of the Lord" that you reject, and demean and belittle anyone who would strive to Obey Him. The Same "way" you preach to the world, that anyone who strives to enter, is a pious, self-righteous, Legalist, trying to earn salvation by his works.

18 O that thou hadst hearkened "to my commandments"! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Where you go off the deep end, is rejecting the Christ's sayings. And rejecting that this same Christ became a mortal human, in the person of Jesus. And that HE overcame Sin and Temptation, by accessing powers that HE withheld from all other humans, then gave Himself glory for doing what any GOD could do, then made Himself out to be the first human to be raised from the dead, when you preach HE was God and couldn't die in the first place.

John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will "of him that sent me".

When did HE come down from Heaven Civic? Will you answer?

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have "the light of life".

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

Is this not the Same "Light" that spoke to Abraham, to Moses?

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes?

40 And this is the will "of him that sent me", that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Meshack., etc., Yes? Didn't Abraham "See the Son" and believe?

Who gave His Father's Laws to Noah? To Abraham" To Moses? Who created the Temporary Priesthood Law that was to be in place until the man Jesus should come?

Whose Feasts did Jesus Promote, if not His Own.


How I wish you would become renewed in the spirit of your mind, and ask yourself, whose voice "say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you".
Where did He come from you ask ?

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15
John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the worldto judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5

“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22
:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

So the eternal Son was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Yes indeed and I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites from the above scriptures.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

Conclusion: one cannot know God apart from the Son. The Son reveals the Father. They are One. The Son is the visible God, the Father the invisible God whom know man has seen according to Jesus. That means it was not the Father seen and heard in the OT, it was the Son who is YHWH.


hope this helps !!!
 
No, God's holiness demands perfect merit.

Yes, That is the Prize of the High Calling of God that was in Christ Jesus, "Be Ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

How can a man be a "Doer" of the Sayings of this Christ, unless he strives for it, presses toward it, even though he is not yet perfect?

1 Cor. 9: 24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If Jesus was this God who became Flesh, and I believe in Him, shall I not also run, and also Press towards the Prize, the perfection that is in Christ Jesus, even though I am not yet perfect?

Or shall I "Yield myself" to "another voice" in the garden God placed me in, like Civic, who tells me that if I run, if I press towards the perfection that was in Christ Jesus, I am a pious self-righteous Judaizer trying to earn salvation?

He says, if we fail one part of the Law, we are guilt of failing all of it.

Yes HE does. Therefore, I should not become "Partial in the Law" should I, like the rebellious Jews in the examples this same Christ had written for my admonition, for my sake no doubt. Or like the religious system of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but transgress God's commandments by their own religious traditions.

I should then, as Peter teaches, "be diligent that I "may be found of him" in peace, without spot, and blameless".

I should then, as Paul teaches, "labour, that, whether present or absent, I "may be accepted of him". For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I should then, as Paul also teaches, "present my body a living sacrifice, holy, "acceptable unto God", which is simply my reasonable service. And be not conformed to the religions of this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that I may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God".

Shall I follow the "other voices" in the garden God placed me in, that teach "Studyman, you shall surely not die" for rejecting God's Judgments and Commandments?

Or should I believe in the Lord's Christ who inspired this "instruction in righteousness", "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" ?

I choose to believe in Him Dizerner. Does that make me a pious self-righteous legalist in your religion too?


You, nor I, can reach this perfection needed to merit heaven.

Paul doesn't teach this, Jesus didn't teach this, His Father didn't teach this, the Prophets didn't teach this. You and civic and other promoters of this world's religious system teaches this. But Paul teaches us to Run, in faith. Therefore I run, even if you guys mock me for doing so.

Certainly a man cannot reach the Perfection that was in Christ Jesus, if he has been convinced by the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in, that God's Word cannot be trusted.

Therefore all our obedience must be sanctified and atoned for through the merits of Christ as our best still falls short.l

How can you win a race you were commanded to run, if you are convinced by another voice that Jesus didn't know what HE was talking about, when HE gave the commandment?

How is that a man's "best effort"?

Of course, but this is a gift of new life that comes within us naturally, not our self-earned merit.

Again, I'm not interested in this world's religious philosophy, I posted God's Word concerning how a man can know if they know God, or simply know about God.

It seems like you and Civic are preaching that I must reject God's Commandments, that if Today, I hear His Voice, I must then harden my heart, and I must refuse to Submit myself to the Sayings of the Lord's Christ, because If I obey the Instruction, I am "trying to earn salvation".

Don't you know that the "Word of God" is Spiritual? Therefore, if the Word of God dwells within me, that means God's Spirit is in me. Therefore if I am obedient to HIS instruction, I am walking in His Spirit. That it is no longer "me" that guides my footsteps, but the "Word of God" that dwells in me.

This whole "The Pharisees were trying to please god by obeying His Laws, is a huge and insidious lie, and it leads to such foolish doctrines like, "If you strive to obey God's Laws, I am trying to earn salvation".

I hope you might actually think about this, and consider, not what "got.questions" teach, or the BBS, but what is actually written in scriptures.

By the works of the Law NO FLESH shall be justified.

This is true, as shown in Isaiah1, if you are interested in knowing what Paul was dealing with, you could read it.

What you will find is that there were Jews who rejected God's Laws, despised His Judgments, Isaiah put's it like this.

Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

This is the same mindset that was in the Pharisees, anyone who hears Jesus describe them with understand.

And yet these "children of the devil" would show up every week with the blood of an unblemished, innocent being to justify their wicked flesh. (According to the Law) That is not how God's Forgiveness works.

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

A man cannot live in willful rejection of God's Judgments and commandments, and then show up once a week, and offer a sacrifice, "as per the Law", to justify his sin.

No flesh is justified by these "Works of the Law". A man is justified by Faith, that is, belief that if he repents from the heart, and brings forth "works" worthy of repentance, that God will forgive his sin.

In like manner, today there is a massive religious system which exists this world the Christ placed us in. They outright reject Christ's Judgments and have created their own, they transgress Christ's Commandments by their own traditions, the reject God's Sabbaths and have created their own. They create images of God in the likeness of a random, long haired handsome man, and they create high days in worship of this image, while they despise and reject the Feasts of the Lord's Christ.

Yet every week they gather together and offer to God the blood of the Christ, "As per the Law", to justify their wicked flesh.

So yes, No Flesh is justified by "works of the law".

We are not justified through our works.
True, we are justified by God's Works, created beforehand by Him, that we should walk in them.

Cling to the Cross today.

It is His Life in men that Saves them. His Death reconciled them to God, but it's His Life in them, that saves them.
 
This is true

If we all fall short of the glory of God, and the Law stops every mouth as guilty, then perfection is not possible.

To accept salvation by your own perfection, is to reject the book of Romans.

We must seriously consider and accept the declaration, "By the works of the Law SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."

If we are trusting in our own good works how are we trusting only in the grace of the Cross?

Denying trust in the atonement, and clinging to self-righteousness, will lead a person to hell.
 
If we all fall short of the glory of God, and the Law stops every mouth as guilty, then perfection is not possible.

I know you will probably not answer, but for those reading along, I will ask anyway in hope that you might.

When the Christ told me to "Be Perfect as His Father is perfect", do you think HE knew I had already sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God? Or did HE not know that I had already sinned when HE gave the Commandment?

When the Same Spirit of Christ told Abraham to be perfect, does your religion teach that the Christ already knew that Abraham had sinned and fell short of the Glory of God? Or was this knowledge unknown to Him and only revealed to you?

This is an important question, I hope you might answer it.

To accept salvation by your own perfection, is to reject the book of Romans.
Where did I say anything that led you to imply that I believe this? Can you quote me, show me some evidence of this? And if you can't, then why would you say such a thing?

We must seriously consider and accept the declaration, "By the works of the Law SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED."
What about the declaration from the same Apostle, inspired by the same Spirit? "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, "but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Or this declaration from the same apostle, by the Same Spirit of Christ, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, "that ye present your bodies" a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Or this declaration from the same Apostle, by the Same spirit, "against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them "who by patient continuance in well doing" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Why is it that this world's religious system, that you have adopted and are now promoting, only "seriously consider and accept the declaration" of only One sentence that Jesus Spoke though Paul, while refusing to "seriously consider and accept the declaration" of the Christ's other teaching though Paul?

And I will ask another question, that you, like other preachers on this forum, will probably not answer, but I will ask anyway in hope that you will.

Why did the Jews Paul was speaking of need Justification? Was it because they were "doers" of the Law, or transgressors of the Law?

And in the old priesthood that the Jews were still promoting in Paul's time, what "works" were required before Forgiveness/justification could be provided for? The Spirit of the Christ "of the Bible" details this in Lev. 4 if you are interested in the "Works of the Law" the Pharisees were promoting for remission of sins, AKA, "Justification".

If we are trusting in our own good works how are we trusting only in the grace of the Cross?

I'm not trusting on "your good works". I'm trusting in the Word of God which dwells in me.


"For we (Those who have "Yielded themselves" to God, and their bodies as a living sacrifice to God, Holy and Acceptable to God) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God (Not you or the Pope, or got.questions, or the BBS "good works", but Works which God) "hath before ordained" that "we should" walk in them.

Shall I not Trust God's Works, over yours?

Denying trust in the atonement, and clinging to self-righteousness, will lead a person to hell.

I agree, that is why I left this world religious system. Because although they call Jesus Lord, Lord, and come in His Name, they are "ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". In other words, they are Self-Righteous, refusing to trust the Atonement promoted by the Christ of the Bible.
 
does your religion teach that the Christ already knew that Abraham had sinned and fell short of the Glory of God?

Christ knows all things, he is divine. Nothing is hidden before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


The point of this verse was not that people could achieve this self-merit, but that one would have to actually do it.

The Law stops every mouth and holds all the world accountable to God.

We must place our fundamental faith firmly in the atonement of Christ.
 
Christ knows all things, he is divine. Nothing is hidden before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Perfect, I agree. So when He Commanded Abraham, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. He knew that Abraham had sinned and fell short of the Glory of God, and yet Still commanded him to "Press towards the prize of High Calling of God, that is, "Perfection", the perfection which was in Christ Jesus.

And the Same Christ, after HE became a man, commanded me to do the exact same thing, knowing that I had sinned and fell short of the Glory of the Lord, yet still commanded me to "Press towards the prize of High Calling of God, that is, "Perfection", the perfection which was in Christ Jesus".

So what if another voice in the garden God placed me in, came along and told me it is impossible to "do" what the Christ told Abraham, Caleb, Paul and me to do? What if that voice tried to convince me that believing in the Christ, and being a "doer" of His Sayings, make me a "Pious Self-Righteous" sinner, trying to earn salvation by my works, even though they are not "my" works? Should I listen to this voice? What if the voice professes to know God, and teaches in Christ's Name, shall i listen to him then? What if he quotes a sentence from the Bible? Shall I listen to him then?

No Dizerner, I have learned my lesson about listening to men who tell me it's impossible to "do" what the Christ instructs me to do.

The point of this verse was not that people could achieve this self-merit, but that one would have to actually do it.

Again, that is your adopted religious philosophy. The Christ, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Malachi, Paul, Peter, James, John and all the rest, didn't ever, even one time imply, that Submitting to God, "Yielding oneself to God, Becoming a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, is "Self-merit".

You preach this, but the Spirit of Christ never did. That is why we don't agree.

The Law stops every mouth and holds all the world accountable to God.

Yes, as Paul teaches, all men are to repent, turn to God, and bring forth works worthy of repentance. What would those works be? Traditions of this world's religions, or the Good works God created beforehand that His People should walk in them?
We must place our fundamental faith firmly in the atonement of Christ.

If I am not a "doer" of His Sayings, but a hearer only, then I am not placing my fundamental faith firmly in the atonement of Christ.
 
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