The death of Jesus was a sacrifice

[civic]

Yes, PSA is a heresy coming from the reformation and quite honestly, the reformers should have left the doctrine of Anselm with the RCC and sought to establish a biblical doctrine of the atonement. Instead they brought the heresy along and enhanced it further into error.

God Bless

Ditto

 

[Logikos]

The article does an excellent job of demonstrating a monstrous error with the doctrine of PSA. That is all it does. It is not a platform for one to build his theological approach to the bible. It is written poetically to express the worldliness within PSA.

I could respond to your comments, but it will do no good until you realize the poetry within it. And only then will you understand what the author of the article is saying. Do I agree with all of it? No, but it speaks to the heart of PSA that God's wrath must be appeased.

You may find it ironic about punishment and wrath mentioned in the bible and the doctrine of PSA.

• The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
• The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
• The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
• The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Of all these instances, not one time are any of these words used towards the Lord. And by thinking God punished His own Son, we misunderstand the wisdom and power of God in Christ that put an end to sin, made permanent reconciliation, and brought in everlasting righteousness (ref: Dan 9:24). It had nothing to do with pouring out wrath upon Christ instead of us. We know innately it is wrong to punish the righteous and let the wicked go. And God tells us, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

I could go on, but enough has been said. I hope you begin to understand what is being conveyed (not taught) in the article.

God Bless

Okay, so first of all, Jesus' life was not taken from Him, He laid it down of His own accord and by His own power (John 10:14-18) and so your argument concerning punishing the righteous and letting the wicked go isn't valid. No one took Jesus and led Him to where He did not want to go. On the contrary, that cross was the purpose for which He was sent by the Father (John 12:23:32 & Luke 22:42) and He went willingly and on purpose. He allowed Himself to be beaten, spat upon, whipped and otherwise mistreated and then tortured by being hung on a tree for hours and finally killed as a payment for sin. He then spent three full days in what Jesus called "Paradise", otherwise known as Abraham's bosom, which was the place where the righteous dead remained until the atoning sacrifice could be made. Thus, Jesus died both physically when His spirit left His physical body and spiritually when He was separated from the Father.

In short, the wages (i.e. the just consequence) of sin is death (separation from God) and Jesus suffered that death in our stead.

That's the gospel. Deny it, even poetically, at your own eternal peril.

 

[Logikos]

Yes, PSA is a heresy coming from the reformation and quite honestly, the reformers should have left the doctrine of Anselm with the RCC and sought to establish a biblical doctrine of the atonement. Instead they brought the heresy along and enhanced it further into error.

God Bless

Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[Joe]

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Did God the Father pour wrath out upon His Son? Or did God the Father send His Son into the world for Him to sacrifice His sinless life to atone for our sins, no wrath or punishing the Son from God directly or indirectly was involved?

 

[civic]

See what I mean!!

You fools are so predictable!

Calling someone a name IS NOT what "ad hominem" means, by the way!

I made no argument because, as I explained, it would be a waste of time as you have already demonstrated in other threads where I've repeatedly tried to get you to engage and you refuse. You're a fool who thinks he's figure out something "special". You're a worthless waste of time and bandwidth.

Now, I thought I'd done this once already by I must not have clicked the right button. I won't make the same mistake again.

Welcome to my ignore list!

Good bye!

Here listen to Jesus.

Matthew 5:22- But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Did God the Father pour wrath out upon His Son? Or did God the Father send His Son into the world for Him to sacrifice His sinless life to atone for our sins, no wrath or punishing the Son from God directly or indirectly was involved?

Get ready for the dodge.

 

[Logikos]

Did God the Father pour wrath out upon His Son? Or did God the Father send His Son into the world for Him to sacrifice His sinless life to atone for our sins, no wrath or punishing the Son from God directly or indirectly was involved?

This question makes no sense. It's like you're asking me to describe the color green without employing the concept of light.
Jesus' death WAS the wrath of God against sin! It's not like Jesus was humanely euthanized like someone beloved elderly pet. He was tortured to death and spent three days separated from the Father!

 

[civic]

This question makes no sense. It's like you're asking me to describe the color green without employing the concept of light.
Jesus' death WAS the wrath of God against sin! It's not like Jesus was humanely euthanized like someone beloved elderly pet. He was tortured to death and spent three days separated from the Father!

WRONG.

NOT a single verse in the entire NT associates Gods wrath with Jesus death.

Its pure MYTH and has pagan origins.

Jesus is the one who dishes out Gods wrath and never the One who is the recipient of wrath.

end of discussion as all you have is an argument from silence, eisegesis and poor hermeneutics.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

God is Love.
Loving God is always connected to loving others. If you cannot or do not love others then you do not love God and are deceived. The greatest commandment Jesus answered was to love God with all you mind, heart, soul and strength and your neighbor. Jesus connected the love of God with loving others. He said the whole world will know you are My disciples by how you love one another. John takes it a step further and says if you don't love others then you don't love God either.

Gos is love within His own Being/Nature, not wrath. We love because God is love and we are to be imitators of Christ/God. Jesus died for the ungodly, the sinner , those who were by nature children of wrath. Tahts why Jesus said to love your enemies. While we were yet enemies Christ died for us. Love trumps all. Faith, hope and love. The greatest and eternal is love. 1 Cor 13. The others will all fade away, but Love is eternal because its who God is as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


James 2:8
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

John 13:34-35
34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 15:13
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

John 15:17
17 "This I command you, that you love one another

Matt 22:37-40
And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

1 John 2:3-6
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

1 John 3:14-19
14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.


1 John 4:7-14
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

1 John 4:16-21
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.



What biblical love looks like in the mirror. Paul defines love below and what it should look like in the Christians life

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Galatians 5:22-25

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.



James 2
My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.



1 Peter 1- Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.

1 Peter 2:8- Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.

2 Peter 1- For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

In the above we can see Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and James are all saying the same thing in unison.

 

[civic]

Some believe in the god of paganism rather than the God of Scripture. They are defending a false god , a false christ and teach false doctrines.

 

[TomL]

Notice the condescending tone of his opening sentence. I haven't yet read one syllable past this and I can already tell you that he isn't going to address a word I said. He'll repeat his doctrine - nothing more.


Not if you agree with that hideous article, you don't!


If God did not die for YOUR sins, you will die for your sins.


Nonsense! They didn't realize that they were committing Deicide! They thought they were killing just another religious nut and didn't know that they were killing God Himself, a sin that only God Himself could forgive.


It was precisely for justice's sake that Jesus, God the Son, laid down His life for!


It was justice that demanded Christ's death!

You deity deniers blow my mind with the pretzels that you will twist yourself into to deny the simplest truths that any child can understand intuitively!

God is just, Joe! If all you did was to get that single idea firmly planted into your mind, 90% of your errors would vanish in an instant! God love us and desires greatly to have a genuine relationship with not only us by with the whole of His creation but there is this sin problem that is in the way. If God were to simply pretend like that sin didn't happen or come up with some totally arbitrary manner of "dealing" with it then He would not be just. God desires to be merciful but is not willing to become unrighteous (i.e. unjust - same thing) to do so. Therefore, He provides a propitiation that satisfies the demands of justice and thereby provides the opportunity for mercy.

Now, THAT is THE gospel! Deny it at your own peril.


It was both. Who taught you how to think?


Stupidity that has exactly zero to do with scripture or the Christian faith.


Blasphemy.


The cross was not some sort of plan to change anyone's mind about anything.

Serious, what lunatic taught you this nonsense?


It was the "payment and punishment" that made the forgiveness possible! Again, God is just! Get that through your head! God cannot do any old arbitrary thing at all and remain just.


And you as you well - according to your actions.

A couple of questions

Where do you see any deny Christ died for man's sin, and where did you see any you are replying deny the deity of Christ?

 

[TomL]

Okay, so first of all, Jesus' life was not taken from Him, He laid it down of His own accord and by His own power (John 10:14-18) and so your argument concerning punishing the righteous and letting the wicked go isn't valid. No one took Jesus and led Him to where He did not want to go. On the contrary, that cross was the purpose for which He was sent by the Father (John 12:23:32 & Luke 22:42) and He went willingly and on purpose. He allowed Himself to be beaten, spat upon, whipped and otherwise mistreated and then tortured by being hung on a tree for hours and finally killed as a payment for sin. He then spent three full days in what Jesus called "Paradise", otherwise known as Abraham's bosom, which was the place where the righteous dead remained until the atoning sacrifice could be made. Thus, Jesus died both physically when His spirit left His physical body and spiritually when He was separated from the Father.

In short, the wages (i.e. the just consequence) of sin is death (separation from God) and Jesus suffered that death in our stead.

That's the gospel. Deny it, even poetically, at your own eternal peril.

So do you deny the deity of Christ?

How could deity die spiritually?

How could God be separated from God without destroying the doctrine of the trinity

or do you hold The divine and the human side, the hypostatic union was fractured?

 

[Logikos]

So do you deny the deity of Christ?

Certainly not!

Jesus was the Creator God become flesh and He died in every way that any other righteous person has ever died.

How could deity die spiritually?

As I've already said elsewhere, death does not mean that one ceases to exist. Death is a spiritual separation. If you soul/spirit separates from your physical body, you are physically dead. If your soul/spirit is separated from God then you are spiritually dead.

Jesus, being God Himself, implies your obvious question but so long as you acknowledge that God is a Trinity, the question is easily answered. Jesus was separated, not from Himself, but from the Father, whom Jesus repeatedly referred to as His God.

​

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”​

​

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

​

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”​

How could God be separated from God without destroying the doctrine of the trinity

That would depend on just what your doctrine is, wouldn't it?

It is precisely the Trinity doctrine that makes it possible!

or do you hold The divine and the human side, the hypostatic union was fractured?

My eyes glaze over anytime someone says the words "hypostatic union". Jesus was God in the flesh - period. He died and rose from the dead - period. All the fancy terminology in the world only serves, in my view, to muddy the water.

"I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." - Jesus (Revelation 1:17-18)​

 

[TomL]

Certainly not!

Jesus was the Creator God become flesh and He died in every way that any other righteous person has ever died.

Physically only

As I've already said elsewhere, death does not mean that one ceases to exist. Death is a spiritual separation. If you soul/spirit separates from your physical body, you are physically dead. If your soul/spirit is separated from God then you are spiritually dead.

So how can you separate Jesus God the son from God the Father and

How can God the father punish God the son without fracturing the trinity


How can god the son be counted as a sinner

Jesus, being God Himself, implies your obvious question but so long as you acknowledge that God is a Trinity, the question is easily answered. Jesus was separated, not from Himself, but from the Father, whom Jesus repeatedly referred to as His God.

so you fracture the trinity and posit some form of Tritheism

​

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”​

run the reference

That is a quote from the old testament

Psalm 22:1–24 (ESV) — 1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? 2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. 3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. 4 In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. 5 To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. 6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads; 8 “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” 9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts. 10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God. 11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help. 12 Many bulls encompass me; strong bulls of Bashan surround me; 13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet— 17 I can count all my bones— they stare and gloat over me; 18 they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. 19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid! 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen! 22 I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.

​

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,​

Yes jesus suffered but that does not necessitate penal substitutionary atonement

​

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”​

And still no proof for PSA

That would depend on just what your doctrine is, wouldn't it?

It is precisely the Trinity doctrine that makes it possible!

Actually the trinity doctrine make it impossible for it would fracture the trinity if true

My eyes glaze over anytime someone says the words "hypostatic union". Jesus was God in the flesh - period. He died and rose from the dead - period. All the fancy terminology in the world only serves, in my view, to muddy the water.

"I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." - Jesus (Revelation 1:17-18)​

 

[civic]

So do you deny the deity of Christ?

How could deity die spiritually?

How could God be separated from God without destroying the doctrine of the trinity

or do you hold The divine and the human side, the hypostatic union was fractured?

Definitely has an unbiblical view of Jesus death.

 

[TomL]

Definitely has an unbiblical view of Jesus death.

Yep Jesus could not die spiritually

 

[civic]

Yep Jesus could not die spiritually

It’s absurd

 

[TomL]

It’s absurd

It certainly is

 

[Logikos]

Physically only

The bible teaches otherwise, as I demonstrated. Your personal opinion doesn't count as a rebuttal.

So how can you separate Jesus God the son from God the Father and

How can God the father punish God the son without fracturing the trinity

I do not know HOW. I don't need to know HOW.

How did God become a man? Do you know? I don't!

How did God created the universe from nothing? I don't know that either!

How can god the son be counted as a sinner

What are you talking about? The fact that He wasn't a sinner along with the fact the He is God is what qualifies Him to be the sacrificial Lamb of God. You know, the One without spot or blemish.

so you fracture the trinity and posit some form of Tritheism

I've fractured nothing. Jesus never stopped being God and my doctrine is not predicated on your theology anyway.

run the reference

That is a quote from the old testament

Yes, I know that.

Yes jesus suffered but that does not necessitate penal substitutionary atonement

Yes, it does.

See! I can state my doctrine naked of any arguments too!

Convinced?

And still no proof for PSA

That depends on your definition of the term I suppose. I suspect that you'd except nothing at all as such proof. You'd likely redefine the entire English dictionary to coincide with your doctrine before ever being convinced you were wrong about anything.

Actually the trinity doctrine make it impossible for it would fracture the trinity if true

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You don't know enough about the nature of the Trinity to even make the first statement about what it would even mean to fracture it. This is nothing but you characterizing my doctrine in terms that you think will move others on an emotional level! You're hoping mindless people will say, "OH! I wouldn't want to be associated with "fracturing the Trinity!" That's sounds awful! Let me run away from that, whether it's true or not!"

That sort of thing doesn't work on me.

 

[TomL]

The bible teaches otherwise, as I demonstrated. Your personal opinion doesn't count as a rebuttal.

sorry, you have not shown Jesus died spiritually

You claimed it ignoring its effect on the Trinity

I do not know HOW. I don't need to know HOW.

How did God become a man? Do you know? I don't!

How did God created the universe from nothing? I don't know that either!

not quite the same as your view fracturing the trinity and setting God the son and God the father at odds

What are you talking about? The fact that He wasn't a sinner along with the fact the He is God is what qualifies Him to be the sacrificial Lamb of God. You know, the One without spot or blemish.

Yes but imputing the sinless lamb a sinner is another matter

PSA holds to an exchange - Christ is imputed with all the sins of the world and man is imputed with righteousness

I've fractured nothing. Jesus never stopped being God and my doctrine is not predicated on your theology anyway.

of course, you did

You held that God the son was separated from God the father and died spiritually

Yes, I know that.


Yes, it does.

See! I can state my doctrine naked of any arguments too!

Except you appear to be unaware there are multiple theories of atonement and there has never been one which was accepted by all parties Even one which hold to a substitutionary atonement

Convinced?

No see above

That depends on your definition of the term I suppose. I suspect that you'd except nothing at all as such proof. You'd likely redefine the entire English dictionary to coincide with your doctrine before ever being convinced you were wrong about anything.

That appears totally gratuitous.

You have not shown anything I have stated is untrue of PSA

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You don't know enough about the nature of the Trinity to even make the first statement about what it would even mean to fracture it. This is nothing but you characterizing my doctrine in terms that you think will move others on an emotional level! You're hoping mindless people will say, "OH! I wouldn't want to be associated with "fracturing the Trinity!" That's sounds awful! Let me run away from that, whether it's true or not!"

That sort of thing doesn't work on me.