The creator of heaven and earth

[Matthias]

“I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.”

The Apostles’ Creed | The Church of England

The Apostles’ Creed is a short summary of the Christian faith that has been handed down generations of Christians.

www.churchofengland.org

I was raised in a church that didn’t recite creeds. The first time I learned about creeds was in a Bible Study given by my pastor. The very first creed that I heard about was the Apostles’ Creed. And it troubled me. The pastor soon moved on to discuss other creeds, but I found my mind returning over and over again to this one. It was the first line of the creed that I kept returning to. It drew my mind like a magnet.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth.

That’s not what they taught me in Sunday School. That’s not what my pastor preached from the pulpit. That’s not what I believed.

Like a drum beat, it thundered in my brain.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth. The FATHER is the creator of heaven and earth. The FATHER is the creator of heaven and earth.

Why didn’t the creed say that Jesus is the creator of heaven and earth? My Sunday School teachers did. My pastor did. My grandparents did. My friends at church did. I did.

The creed doesn’t. What a curious thing that was to me.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth.

A seed had been planted in my mind.

 

[Fred]

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth.

Equally true is the fact that:
The Lord Jesus is the Creator of heaven and earth (Hebrews 1:10).

 

[Matthias]

Dr. Sagan was raised Jewish but became agnostic.

From the Hebrew Bible that he turned away from:

”By the word of Yahweh the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.”

(Psalm 33:6, LEB)

 

[civic]

I believe the Bible not creeds. The Bible is inspired by God not any creed. The Bible says the Son is the Creator and existed before anything was created. He is before all things and in HIM all things have their existence. His Deity is undeniable in Scripture as the Creator of all things.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made


Acts 17:24-25
He is the God who made the world and everything in it. Since He is Lord of heaven and earth, He does not live in man-made temples,
and human hands can not serve His needs--for He has no needs. He Himself gives life and breath to everything, and He satisfies every need there is.

Col 1:16-17
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Heb 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.


Heb 1:10
He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Matthias]

The Apostles’ Creed is right. The creed was written by trinitarians. It was written by unitarians.

It was Yahweh alone - the God and Father of Jesus of Nazareth - who created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.

P.S.

For interested readers, there is another thread where John‘s prologue in his Gospel is currently being discussed. I would direct your attention to that thread, and to translations like that of William Tyndale.

 

[Lily]

According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit was also involved in creation.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Genesis 1:1–2

As was Jesus: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1–3

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Colossians 1:15–16

Creation was God's plan... His idea. And each member of the trinity were involved.

The Book of Genesis: Introduction to God’s Plan

The book of Genesis reveals the foundations of what God is doing. It reveals the beginning of His creation and introduces His plan. What can we learn from it?

lifehopeandtruth.com

 

[Matthias]

What Jesus said to a fellow Jew,

“Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning male and female”

(Matthew 19:4)

What the trinitarian hears,

”Have you not read that I who made them from the beginning male and female”

Or, alternatively,

”Have you not read that we who made them from the beginning male and female”

Jesus and his fellow Jew both believed that it is their God, the Father, the God of the Jews, who made them from the beginning male and female.

 

[Dizerner]

Jesus and his fellow Jew both believed that it is their God, the Father, the God of the Jews, who made them from the beginning male and female.

"Let US make MAN in OUR image."

Who besides the Father do you think is being referenced.

 

[Fred]

What Jesus said to a fellow Jew,

“Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning male and female”

(Matthew 19:4)

What the trinitarian hears,

”Have you not read that I who made them from the beginning male and female”

Or, alternatively,

”Have you not read that we who made them from the beginning male and female”

Jesus can use "God" in reference to Himself because Jesus in equality with the Father fully knows the hearts of all (Luke 16:15; cf. John 2:24-25; Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23)

 

[Matthias]

"Let US make MAN in OUR image."

I heard a sermon a long time ago, over forty years ago now, that was titled “The Hinting God”.

This immediately caused me to ask, Why would God be hInting? If he is three, why not just come out and say so from the very beginning?

There are thounds of singular nouns and pronouns used in scripture in reference to God. Why does this verse carry more weight than do those thousands?

“The hinting God” isn’t the Messiah’s God.

Who besides the Father do you think is being referenced.

I agree with the NET commentary. (See 47sn.)

Genesis 1

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

Tertullian incidentally thought the image was Christ and NOT the Father, which you would never learn from Tuggy.

I would put Tertullian at or near the top of my list of Ante-Nicene Fathers. I highly recommend reading his works to all, trinitarians and non-trinitarian alike.

 

[Dizerner]

This immediately caused me to ask, Why would God be hInting? If he is three, why not just come out and say so from the very beginning?

Types and shadows, and we have strong Biblical assertions God uses those.

This is very poor logic.

"If God were going to send a Messiah who was going to die for sins, why did he wait until Isaiah 53? Why doesn't Genesis 1 contain John 3:16?"

If God EVER says it—we do not need to question WHY he said it WHEN.

There are thounds of singular nouns and pronouns used in scripture in reference to God. Why does this verse carry more weight than do those thousands?

Because it cannot be ignored.

It's not a "slip up" like some typo in a news article.

If it's there, it's there for a purpose.

I agree with the NET commentary. (See 47sn.)

More "God-sharing."

So humans are a copy of a copy then... and we are made in the angel's image.

I don't accept that at all.

I would put Tertullian at or near the top of my list of Ante-Nicene Fathers. I highly recommend reading his works to all, trinitarians and non-trinitarian alike.

For sure seems like a deep sincere Christian thinker.

 

[Matthias]

Types and shadows, and we have strong Biblical assertions God uses those.

Yes, but not for God himself. The Messiah is very clear in his mind about who his God and the God of his disciples is.

This is very poor logic.

"If God were going to send a Messiah who was going to die for sins, why did he wait until Isaiah 53? Why doesn't Genesis 1 contain John 3:16?"

It’s one thing for God to unveil what he has in mind over time. It’s quite another thing for God to reveal that he is really three persons, not one person.

I may be mistaken but I think it was you who mentioned progressive revelation to me. Anyway, when I was a trinitarian I believed in progressive revelation. “Moses the Trinitarian” is a fiction. It wasn’t until the NT, so I thought at the time, that God revealed that he is three persons. Church history dispelled me of that belief.

I was speaking to another trinitarian online about ten years ago. He said that he believed that God, who is three persons, could one day reveal that he is actually a million persons. I objected, but not a single trinitarian member of that forum did. The logic which the trinitarian members of that forum took was that we cannot limit God.

I called it “progressive revelation on steroids.”

If God EVER says it—we do not need to question WHY he said it WHEN.

I agree.

Because it cannot be ignored.

Again, I agree.

It's not a "slip up" like some typo in a news article.

If it's there, it's there for a purpose.

And I agree. That reminds me of a radio program from Michael Brown’s radio call-in program Line of Fire. It’s related to what we’re speaking about, so I’ll find it and post it here.

More "God-sharing."

So humans are a copy of a copy then... and we are made in the angel's image.

I don't accept that at all.

God has a heavenly court. I think it’s more than plausible that God discussed what he was planning to do with the court before he did it.

Scripture doesn’t say that man is made in the image of angels. Are angels made in the image of God? A strong case can be made for it.

For sure seems like a deep sincere Christian thinker.

 

[Matthias]

That reminds me of a radio program from Michael Brown’s radio call-in program Line of Fire. It’s related to what we’re speaking about, so I’ll find it and post it here.

Here it is @dizerner. Dr. Brown (a trinitarian, as you probably know) is asked a question by a caller (I don’t know if the caller is trinitarian or not, and it really doesn’t matter one way or the other) concerning Hebrew plural verbs. The segment is only 8 minutes and 44 seconds long. It‘s entirely between Dr. Brown and the person who called him. Dr. Brown’s response to the caller‘s question is impeccable.

video>>

 

[Fred]

I heard a sermon a long time ago, over forty years ago now, that was titled “The Hinting God”.

This immediately caused me to ask, Why would God be hInting? If he is three, why not just come out and say so from the very beginning?

There are thounds of singular nouns and pronouns used in scripture in reference to God. Why does this verse carry more weight than do those thousands?

One truth does not contradict another truth. They are both true.
God is not a Unitarian god.

 

[e v e]

“I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.”

The Apostles’ Creed | The Church of England

The Apostles’ Creed is a short summary of the Christian faith that has been handed down generations of Christians.

www.churchofengland.org

I was raised in a church that didn’t recite creeds. The first time I learned about creeds was in a Bible Study given by my pastor. The very first creed that I heard about was the Apostles’ Creed. And it troubled me. The pastor soon moved on to discuss other creeds, but I found my mind returning over and over again to this one. It was the first line of the creed that I kept returning to. It drew my mind like a magnet.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth.

That’s not what they taught me in Sunday School. That’s not what my pastor preached from the pulpit. That’s not what I believed.

Like a drum beat, it thundered in my brain.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth. The FATHER is the creator of heaven and earth. The FATHER is the creator of heaven and earth.

Why didn’t the creed say that Jesus is the creator of heaven and earth? My Sunday School teachers did. My pastor did. My grandparents did. My friends at church did. I did.

The creed doesn’t. What a curious thing that was to me.

The Father is the creator of heaven and earth.

A seed had been planted in my mind.

it matters not since His Spirit and Christ execute His Will...

humbly offered

 

[Matthias]

it matters not since His Spirit and Christ execute His Will...

humbly offered

I like your gentle nature. I may or may not be able to agree with what you say, but you’ve got my attention. Whether I respond or not, I want you to know that I’m listening.

 

[e v e]

I like your gentle nature. I may or may not be able to agree with what you say, but you’ve got my attention. Whether I respond or not, I want you to know that I’m listening.

thank you so much

i felt that

 

[DavP]

So this thread has turned into a JEW debate trying to say that Lord Jesus is not GOD?

John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto Him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."

9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'"
KJV

One of Lord Jesus' titles is "Immanuel", which means 'God with us', i.e., God having come in the flesh as Jesus The Christ (see Matthew 1:24).


Those in Christ Jesus can rest assured that Lord Jesus, God The Son, and God The Father, and God The Holy Spirit were EACH responsible for the creation of ALL things.

I truly am amazed at some who 'claim' to be a Christian but think Lord Jesus Christ was just a flesh man only, like the unbelieving Jews think. The Old Testament Scripture reveal the existence of Lord Jesus Christ even back in Old Testament times, even having appeared to Abraham and spoke with him, and blessed Abraham (Jesus as the Melchizedek).

At the end of John 8, Jesus proclaimed that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad. Then the unbelieving Jews there asked Him if He had seen Abraham, and Jesus said, "Verify, before Abraham was, I AM." The "I AM" is one of GOD's sacred names! Then those unbelieving Jews took up stones and tried to stone Lord Jesus for saying that.

 

[e v e]

Christ is not a flesh man


Christ and His father have the same Eden paradise nature

which signature is on all His creation
which is how to distinguish this world
as not His.

Christ said He is not from here

 

[DavP]

The Apostles’ Creed is right. The creed was written by trinitarians. It was written by unitarians.

It was Yahweh alone - the God and Father of Jesus of Nazareth - who created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them.

P.S.

For interested readers, there is another thread where John‘s prologue in his Gospel is currently being discussed. I would direct your attention to that thread, and to translations like that of William Tyndale.

Believing that The Father ONLY created the heavens and the earth omits The Christ as God The Son. God's Holy Writ does not omit Immanuel (God with us) Jesus Christ from The Triune Godhead.

In Hebrews 7, Apostle Paul explains that the Melchisedec that met Abraham, and offered Abraham "bread and wine", and blessed Abraham, was Lord Jesus Christ in Old Testament times. And Abraham gave tithes to Melchisedec even before the sons of Levi were born.


Apostle John clearly explained it, though many don't understand what he was saying below:

2 John 7
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
KJV


The idea that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the flesh is not John's point, for even the blind scribes and Pharisees knew that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the flesh through woman's womb. John's point is about GOD... having been born in flesh as Jesus The Christ. Those who refuse to believe that Jesus as The Christ was born in the flesh, John says are "a deceiver and an antichrist".

Many of my Christian brethren do not realize that the Title of 'The Christ' is a Name that is part of The Godhead. It points to GOD The Son. Even though we are used to hearing it attached to Lord Jesus' name, it still points to the Heavenly Title of The Son of God, The Christ. That is why when Jesus asked Peter who He was, Peter said the following...

Matt 16:15-17
15 He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven."
KJV

And if one researches even the name 'Jesus', you will discover it originates from Hebrew Yehoshua, which means 'Yehovah is Salvation'. So truly, it is impossible to separate even the name 'Jesus Christ' from The Godhead of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.


Furthermore, for those who refuse to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh, then His death and resurrection would mean nothing, and did not accomplish its main purpose that He was sent into this world for by The Father to die on the cross to defeat death and the devil for those who believe on Him...

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
KJV

That means of course, if you do not believe Jesus The Christ is God come in the flesh, then it means you have NO SALVATION and are still DEAD IN YOUR SINS. It's as simple as that. And just who... would be behind pushing that false idea that Jesus The Christ is not God come in the flesh? The Orthodox unbelieving 'false' Jews of the "synagogue of Satan", those of the pagan nations that crept in among the Jews in their early history (Rev.2:9; Rev.3:9; Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9; Matt.13; Jude 4).