The connection between Gnosticism and the Reformers

[makesends]

Why should God predestinating Jesus to go to the cross make him responsible for the evil act? The participants all still acted by their free will. He didn't make them do it. They did it for their own selfish reasons.

I'm not arguing that it makes God responsible for the evil act. My point, in the end, is that he is not responsible for it, in the sense that relieves the sinner from guilt, though he caused that it be. So also for all fact, in every particular.

 

[Rockson]

The whole primary and secondary cause and the active and passive will are strawman arguments attempting to get God off the hook for sin and evil and being the responsible party. Compatibilism does the same thing its what I call the inconsistent calvinist. The hyper calvinist is consistent with his doctrines and faces the music about them and defends them taking full responsibility for his beliefs without trying to get God off the hook. That person knows his beliefs lead to God as the responsible party and the author of evil.

I agree. Those into compatibilism are people sitting on the fence. I consider that they don't really want to be Calvinists but they're afraid to think that sovereignty just might not mean that God controls everything. Would God be mad at them for not thinking that way? I can assure them he wouldn't so don't be worried about getting on the right side of the fence.

 

[civic]

I agree. Those into compatibilism are people sitting on the fence. I consider that they don't really want to be Calvinists but they're afraid to think that sovereignty just might not mean that God controls everything. Would God be mad at them for not thinking that way? I can assure them he wouldn't so don't be worried about getting on the right side of the fence.

Ditto

 

[atpollard]

Those into compatibilism are people sitting on the fence. I consider that they don't really want to be Calvinists but they're afraid to think that sovereignty just might not mean that God controls everything.

Could you please explain “God’s will” the following two paragraphs, because it seems to me to describe “sovereignty” and I want to understand His ‘not sovereign’ will.

Ephesians 1:3-14 [ESV]
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. ​

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.​

 

[Rockson]

Could you please explain “God’s will” the following two paragraphs, because it seems to me to describe “sovereignty” and I want to understand His ‘not sovereign’ will.

OK....."as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will "

Here's the key to understanding this. God did not choose these people, US, or group of Christians to believe. Those who would choose to believe he chose the destination that such ones would go into and that is to become holy and blameless before him in love. The same ones who would believe they would be

predestinated for adoption.....So it had nothing to do with who each one personally would be but rather what would happen to the group of those who believe. About your other paragraphs it's the same principle involved.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

OK....."as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will "

Here's the key to understanding this. God did not choose these people, US, or group of Christians to believe. Those who would choose to believe he chose the destination that such ones would go into and that is to become holy and blameless before him in love. The same ones who would believe they would be

predestinated for adoption.....So it had nothing to do with who each one personally would be but rather what would happen to the group of those who believe. About your other paragraphs it's the same principle involved.

So what you're saying is God chooses according to his foresight of what people choose. I'd love to see a scripture to support this. And I'm not talking about foreknowledge, because that's entirely different. "Those he foreknew" is not the same thing as "those about whom he had foresight into their future decisions".

 

[Rockson]

So what you're saying is God chooses according to his foresight of what people choose.

No I don't believe that's what I'm saying. I'm saying God chose how redemption would work. It's the IN HIM way he chose to do things. With Christians choosing to believe it was his choice they would meet certain destinations, holy, and being blameless before him in love. (and other things too)

 

[makesends]

OK....."as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will "

Here's the key to understanding this. God did not choose these people, US, or group of Christians to believe. Those who would choose to believe he chose the destination that such ones would go into and that is to become holy and blameless before him in love. The same ones who would believe they would be

predestinated for adoption.....So it had nothing to do with who each one personally would be but rather what would happen to the group of those who believe. About your other paragraphs it's the same principle involved.

Can you explain how your arrangement of words does not imply that man is not the hinge upon which his eternity turns? Are you telling us that God only predestined that some unknown-to-God group of people, who would choose him, would become holy and blameless in him in love? Or would you correct that to say that they were known to God because he can look down the corridors of time to see who they would be, and then predestined them to be holy and blameless in love? And does that not then imply that something, perhaps fate or chance, controls what God does not?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your reasoning is at fault here. You are vainly trying to defend God's virtue by placing responsibility for sinful acts on some other cause as if God is not sovereign over all things.

So God isn't virtuous? God can't lie. Do you believe God can lie? There are things that God can not do that He has allowed men to do. To claim that God purposed the bad choices of men is to establish culpability of God in the actions of men.

Do you blame flat tires on God's Sovereignty?

God didn't create tires. We did. Man did. Stop pretending what we have done is the same as what God has done.

But God is God, and God does all things as he pleases and for His own glory. It pleased God for Joseph's brothers to send Joseph into slavery because God MEANT to use it for good. Could God have prevented the brothers' action? Of course He could.

God values uncoerced choice above all. That is why you don't see God actively operating openly in humanity. He has charged men with their own governance.

Not even Satan can do anything without God's permission.

You're looking at this the wrong way. God was protecting Job in this world controlled by Satan and man. Again. You're pretending that God predestined all things and He didn't. He doesn't. He sets boundaries and established limits. He takes targeted actions. He has angels and ministers that operate within the free secondary cause of men to control and limit society. There is balance maintained to establish the opportunity that pleases Him.

Did God force his brothers to do it? No, the brothers did it of their own fallen will. But God made sure that it would happen because it was part of His plan.

You're really missing this. You're missing this because of what you've been told by others and what you prefer for yourself. You desire to see yourself as being "chosen". That is what you desire. I've desired it myself. Such isn't true. God chose Himself in His Son. Not you. Not me. His Son.

God could have caused Joseph to conquer Egypt many different ways. You need to ask yourself, why this way? Why did it have to happen this way? The answer is.... IT DIDN'T.

The reason it happened this is because of the power granted every men to chose. Include the brothers of Joseph. It also revealed the choices of Joseph.

You prefer to see God as directly involved in everything. That way, you're not really culpable. You actually are establishing the lack of your own culpability. You are establishing Grace for yourself while denying Grace to others.

It does not follow (non-sequitur) that if God makes sure that sin happens that God is evil and controlling the sinners like robots. But nothing occurs apart from God's will. Nothing.

Sure it does. That is a false narrative that Satan has feed many. Including myself. The Scriptures prove you wrong.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

We know God does all things according to His good pleasure whether or not we happen to like the actions. This is the heart of FAITH. When we see atrocities occur, it is FAITH that sustains us because His purposes in ordaining these things to occur are unsearchable by we mere men. Have FAITH in God and stop trying defend God as if he needs such defense.

Stop blaming God. He doesn't need you to defend Him..... See how easy that was? Consider the opposing argument. I believe what the Scriptures teach. You know a few that others repeat to you. I stopped listening to them a long time ago. Now, show me how what you say is true in context with what Jesus Christ said in Luke 13:34.

What happened was not according to the will of God. Prove, through the Scripture that Luke 13:34 doesn't really mean what Jesus Christ clearly stated.

 

[praise_yeshua]

civic said:
Gods foreknowledge does not make Him responsible. God predestining the crucifixion does not make Him responsible.

makesends said:
Then how does God's foreknowledge and predestining of all things make him responsible?

@civic said that God's foreknowledge does not make Him responsible and that God predestining the crucifixion does not make Him responsible. If that is true, then how would God's foreknowledge and predestining of anything (or everything) else make him responsible?

God's action in the events you describe establish the value of The Atonement. However, this does not establish that your bowel movements are predestined according the "Good pleasure of His will". Feel free to use the bathroom any time you like. You can hold it for a while...... or let it go when you feel the first discomfort. You seem to think God takes pleasure in determining such nonsense.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A.W. Pink made my point better than I can.

"But let it be said very emphatically that the heart can only rest upon and enjoy the blessed truth of the absolute Sovereignty of God as faith is in exercise. Faith is ever occupied with God. That is the character of it; that is what differentiates it from intellectual theology. Faith endures "as seeing Him who is invisible" (Heb. 11:27): endures the disappointments, the hardships, and the heartaches of life by recognizing that all comes from the hand of Him who is too wise to err and too loving to be unkind. But so long as we are occupied with any other object than God Himself there will be neither rest for the heart nor peace for the mind. But when we receive all that enters our lives as from His hand, then, no matter what may be our circumstances or surroundings-whether in a hovel, a prison-dungeon, or a martyr's stake-we shall be enabled to say, "The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places" (Psa. 16:6). But that is the language of faith, not of sight or of sense.

But if instead of bowing to the testimony of Holy Writ, if instead of walking by faith, we follow the evidence of our eyes, and reason therefrom, we shall fall into a quagmire of virtual atheism. Or, if we are regulated by the opinions and views of others, peace will be at an end. Granted that there is much in this world of sin and suffering which appalls and saddens us; granted that there is much in the providential dealings of God which startle and stagger us; that is no reason why we should unite with the unbelieving worldling who says, "If I were God, I would not allow this or tolerate that," etc. Better far, in the presence of bewildering mystery, to say with one of old, "I was dumb, I opened not my mouth: because Thou didst it" (Psa. 39:9). Scripture tells us that God's judgments are "unsearchable," and His ways "past finding out" (Rom. 11:33). It must be so if faith is to be tested, confidence in His wisdom and righteousness strengthened, and submission to His holy will fostered."

Then why are you and Pink insisting that you know them????

This is why I hate most commentary. They usually all self serving......

I mean seriously, you appeal to ambiguity for yourself and then go to great lengths to deny it others. If you don't know, then you don't know. If His ways are so past finding out, then don't pretend what you said is the solution.

Again.... This nothing more than claiming Grace for yourself while denying it to others. I can understand this just as good as you can. You have no gift that I do not have myself. We are all equal in Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If they use the words, "responsible", what do they mean by it?

Culpable. Have you not seen that word used in this thread?

 

[praise_yeshua]

OK....."as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will "

Here's the key to understanding this. God did not choose these people, US, or group of Christians to believe. Those who would choose to believe he chose the destination that such ones would go into and that is to become holy and blameless before him in love. The same ones who would believe they would be

predestinated for adoption.....So it had nothing to do with who each one personally would be but rather what would happen to the group of those who believe. About your other paragraphs it's the same principle involved.

Correct. Corporate Election. Calvinists hate it.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So God isn't virtuous? God can't lie. Do you believe God can lie? There are things that God can not do that He has allowed men to do. To claim that God purposed the bad choices of men is to establish culpability of God in the actions of men.

Do you blame flat tires on God's Sovereignty?

You're being silly here.

God values uncoerced choice above all.

I'd like to see some scriptural support for this with respect to salvation. I only see it in verses like "God loves a cheerful giver".

You're looking at this the wrong way. God was protecting Job in this world controlled by Satan and man. Again. You're pretending that God predestined all things and He didn't. He doesn't. He sets boundaries and established limits. He takes targeted actions. He has angels and ministers that operate within the free secondary cause of men to control and limit society. There is balance maintained to establish the opportunity that pleases Him.

No, I'm referring to scripture. Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.

As for Job, God put limits on what Satan could do. Satan couldn't do anything without God's permission.

You're really missing this. You're missing this because of what you've been told by others and what you prefer for yourself. You desire to see yourself as being "chosen". That is what you desire. I've desired it myself. Such isn't true. God chose Himself in His Son. Not you. Not me. His Son.

That's really bizarre thinking, and couldn't be more unscriptural.

Sure it does. That is a false narrative that Satan has feed many. Including myself. The Scriptures prove you wrong.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Funny how you free-willers take things like John 6, Romans 8, 9, Ephesians, etc., and say it's about Israel. Here you actually have a verse in a large context that is specifically about Israel, and you want to use it to prove free will.

Stop blaming God. He doesn't need you to defend Him..... See how easy that was?

I never blame God. I know that whatever happens, it is according to the good counsel of His will. As I said, this is the heart of FAITH, that you can rest in the fact that God is sovereign over ALL things.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Can you explain how your arrangement of words does not imply that man is not the hinge upon which his eternity turns?

You have a poor understand of what a "Hinge" does. Even if what you describe is a viable description of what happens, which actually has value?

1. The Door (Jesus Christ)
2. The one who opens the Door (Jesus Christ)
3. What Door was chosen (Jesus Christ)

.... or the helpless person crying on the other side for help?

There is no power in the HELPLESS cry of another to God.

Are you telling us that God only predestined that some unknown-to-God group of people, who would choose him, would become holy and blameless in him in love? Or would you correct that to say that they were known to God because he can look down the corridors of time to see who they would be, and then predestined them to be holy and blameless in love? And does that not then imply that something, perhaps fate or chance, controls what God does not?

I'm telling you that God didn't choose you. God chose His Son. God didn't choose me. God chose His Son.

The "choice" of God to which you're appealing is God's choice in Himself. Predestination doesn't include YOU. Those in Christ are being conformed.

The Target of Jesus Christ was chosen. Not you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're being silly here.
I'd like to see some scriptural support for this with respect to salvation. I only see it in verses like "God loves a cheerful giver".

How am I being silly? I'm giving you detailed examples and you're living in ambiguity.

Show me something that says that God predetermined flat tires? Or something similar......

We are creators ourselves. Well... mostly fabricators. We have to live with what we create/fabricate ourselves.

Making a gun doesn't make the manufacturer of that gun responsible for what the person who made it.... DOES....

I used automobiles for a reason. How many people have died from a flat tire? Do you really believe God predestined them to die from something we created?

Brother, Calvinism is overly simplistic and silly.

No, I'm referring to scripture. Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.

As for Job, God put limits on what Satan could do. Satan couldn't do anything without God's permission.

Once again, you're looking at this wrong. I'm asking you to see the limits themselves and not just claim that God predestined everything.

That's really bizarre thinking, and couldn't be more unscriptural. .

Really? Bizarre because it leaves all of us out of Salvation? I actually thought that is what your view of Election does. I guess I was wrong < sarcasm.....

Why are you rejecting the exaltation I give Jesus Christ in election? I've said for a very long time that Calvinism is self centered. Not Christ Centered. This is one of the very real proofs that this is true.

Funny how you free-willers take things like John 6, Romans 8, 9, Ephesians, etc., and say it's about Israel. Here you actually have a verse in a large context that is specifically about Israel, and you want to use it to prove free will.

How does it being about Israel change anything? Please elaborate.

I never blame God. I know that whatever happens, it is according to the good counsel of His will. As I said, this is the heart of FAITH, that you can rest in the fact that God is sovereign over ALL things.

Even flat tires?

You're taking the "easy way out". Attributing evil as a predestined means of good.....isn't a good thing.

 

[makesends]

God's action in the events you describe establish the value of The Atonement. However, this does not establish that your bowel movements are predestined according the "Good pleasure of His will". Feel free to use the bathroom any time you like. You can hold it for a while...... or let it go when you feel the first discomfort. You seem to think God takes pleasure in determining such nonsense.

You think "according to the good pleasure of his will" means pleasure, such as humans feel? That's not what it means. It's a figure of speech, meaning, 'according to whatever HE chooses to do'.

Again, it is simply logical, that since God knows all things, yet created anyway, that he intended all things to turn out as they do, to include your every decision. Everything that happens, does so as a result of his having created.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

How am I being silly? I'm giving you detailed examples and you're living in ambiguity.

You're trying to prove God is virtuous because he's not responsible for a flat tire. I call that ridiculous. Not only that, but could God have prevented the flat tire? If so, why didn't he? If not, why is it that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God, but a tire goes flat apart from His will?

How detailed is God's control? Even the hairs on your head are numbered. In my case, that's not much of a feat, but even so...

How does it being about Israel change anything? Please elaborate.

Because this isn't about will, it is an introduction to God's temporary rejection of Israel (except for a remnant) and opening up to the gentiles. If anything, it reinforces predestination because this move was prophesied in the OT.

 

[makesends]

civic said:
Calvinist theologians including Calvin teach God is responsible for those evil and sinful acts

makesends said:
If they use the words, "responsible", what do they mean by it?

Culpable. Have you not seen that word used in this thread?

What's with the smartmouthing attitude?

No, they do not mean God is culpable, and that is my point.

 

[makesends]

You have a poor understand of what a "Hinge" does. Even if what you describe is a viable description of what happens, which actually has value?

1. The Door (Jesus Christ)
2. The one who opens the Door (Jesus Christ)
3. What Door was chosen (Jesus Christ)

.... or the helpless person crying on the other side for help?

There is no power in the HELPLESS cry of another to God.

Poetic, at least, I'll give you that. But inaccurate. The dead in sins do not cry out to God; they don't even know they are dead. At best, they know they are unhappy, and that their consciences bother them.

They don't even know who God is to cry out to him. They suppose some great power beyond theirs, and add whatever garbage they have heard to that. It takes faith, generated by the Spirit of God, who knows God as he knows himself, before the cry has any substance to it.

I'm telling you that God didn't choose you. God chose His Son. God didn't choose me. God chose His Son.

The "choice" of God to which you're appealing is God's choice in Himself. Predestination doesn't include YOU. Those in Christ are being conformed.

The Target of Jesus Christ was chosen. Not you.

You're reiterating only. No support. Argumentative.