Rowan
Active member
LoL I'm totally against Calvinism. I'll try to be more specific in my posts.
The connection between Gnosticism and the Reformers
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Are you serious ?
Will you believe the Bible when it specifically states who killed Jesus ?
civic
Well-known member
Members and guests. Who does the Bible below said killed Jesus ?
Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him
Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him
1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him
Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him
1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
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makesends
Well-known member
Your last sentence is correct. Thus, God caused that sin be.
In the closer analysis, God does not sin in causing that sin be. Sin by definition is rebellion against God. God cannot (logically) rebel against himself. But he can set up every particular necessary for each rebellious deed, and all rebellion against himself, to occur, by his creatures that he has created for his purposes. The sin is when they do it.
If a criminal is caught in a crime, his excuses and reasons may figure into his punishment, but the crime was not committed by those causes. The crime was only committed as a result of those (and other) causes.
makesends
Well-known member
atpollard said:
Who killed Jesus - God or Men?
It is not "double speak", it is biblical reality illustrated in scripture and vital to understanding what God does and how God does it.
Read Romans 1:18-32 and see what part God played in their increasing sin and what part they played.
Who killed Jesus - God or Men?
It is not "double speak", it is biblical reality illustrated in scripture and vital to understanding what God does and how God does it.
Read Romans 1:18-32 and see what part God played in their increasing sin and what part they played.
Yet you yourself said:
If, "ultimately, all events including the fall of Adam must be traced back to God, who renders them certain", then God caused all events, whether directly or indirectly. And it is more than obvious that God does indeed work through means, to accomplish his ends. Even the free-will arguments are rendered moot through this fact, in that God's decree is accomplished in part by the choices of men.
atpollard
Well-known member
Does YOUR Bible have this paragraph?
- John 10:11-18 [NASB] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters [the flock.] 13 "[He flees] because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father."
What about this paragraph?
- Isaiah 53:10-12 [NASB] 10 But the LORD desired To crush Him, causing [Him] grief; If He renders Himself [as] a guilt offering, He will see [His] offspring, He will prolong [His] days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see [it and] be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, For He will bear their wrongdoings. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the plunder with the strong, Because He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the wrongdoers.
And this paragraph?
- John 19:8-12 [NASB] 8 Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was [even] more afraid; 9 and he entered the Praetorium again and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to Him, "Are you not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over Me at all, if it had not been given to you from above; for this reason the one who handed Me over to you has [the] greater sin." 12 As a result of this, Pilate made efforts to release Him; but the Jews shouted, saying, "If you release this Man, you are not a friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself [out to be] a king opposes Caesar!"
Perhaps when you attempted to "school" me ...
... you only provided HALF the answer.
atpollard
Well-known member
I am a Particular Baptist, so perhaps you could quote for me from the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (aka London Confession) where we Calvinists put that "spin" on it.
civic
Well-known member
Gods foreknowledge does not make Him responsible. God predestining the crucifixion does not make Him responsible.Does YOUR Bible have this paragraph?
- John 10:11-18 [NASB] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters [the flock.] 13 "[He flees] because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, 15 just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, [with] one shepherd. 17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. 18 "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father."
What about this paragraph?
- Isaiah 53:10-12 [NASB] 10 But the LORD desired To crush Him, causing [Him] grief; If He renders Himself [as] a guilt offering, He will see [His] offspring, He will prolong [His] days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see [it and] be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, For He will bear their wrongdoings. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the plunder with the strong, Because He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the wrongdoers.
And this paragraph?
- John 19:8-12 [NASB] 8 Therefore when Pilate heard this statement, he was [even] more afraid; 9 and he entered the Praetorium again and said to Jesus, "Where are You from?" But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate said to Him, "Are you not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" 11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over Me at all, if it had not been given to you from above; for this reason the one who handed Me over to you has [the] greater sin." 12 As a result of this, Pilate made efforts to release Him; but the Jews shouted, saying, "If you release this Man, you are not a friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself [out to be] a king opposes Caesar!"
Perhaps when you attempted to "school" me ...
... you only provided HALF the answer.
atpollard
Well-known member
Does the FATHER commanding the SON to lay down his life and take it back up make Him responsible?
Does the LORD desiring to crush the Son make Him responsible?
Did you even bother to READ what the scripture I posted and underlined actually says?
[Merriam-Webster] predestine (transitive verb) : to destine, decree, determine, appoint, or settle beforehand
God predestining something, does make Him responsible ... you are redefining predestine.
God foreknowing something (omniscience) does not make Him responsible ... of course the Bible only speaks of God "foreknowing" ("proginōskō" G4267) people [Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2], so you are sloppy with your handling of that term.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus said He lays down His life and no one takes it from Him. He lays down His life for the sheep and He takes up His life. You divide the Tri-Unity of God where I dismantle your argument here in full. Here I take apart the teaching on PSA. All your objections and questions are torn apart here with the God of the Bible and exposing the calvinsts god as unbiblical.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
"moot"? Then why did it transpire at all? You can't pretend that secondary cause isn't "CAUSE" itself.
Do you see that word "cause" after "secondary". There is a HUGE difference in direct and indirect cause.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Do you see the "chance".... in the words of Solomon?
Blaming God for the foolish actions of others is utter preposterous.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Conflating nonsense. Why do we even have the English word "lay down" if you're going to treat it as "God killing His Son"?
There nuisances to every statement being made. It was BOTH. Jesus laid down His life but those who crucified Him sought to MURDER HIM. They were culpable in the death of Jesus Christ.
This 1 + 1 "math" that Calvinism uses is very childish. We are adults. Why are you using such rudimentary carnal mathematics. God asked Job if He understood what He had done in Creation and Job had to say he didn't. He was forced to recognize the complexity of God.
Yet.... here you are trying to say 1 + 1 = God.
civic
Well-known member
1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)What about this paragraph?
- Isaiah 53:10-12 [NASB] 10 But the LORD desired To crush Him, causing [Him] grief; If He renders Himself [as] a guilt offering, He will see [His] offspring, He will prolong [His] days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see [it and] be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, For He will bear their wrongdoings. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the plunder with the strong, Because He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the wrongdoers.
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT
Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.
The above facts in the Bible are Indisputable. Why someone would attempt to argue against the facts above from Gods word is beyond me.
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from.
At best PSA is a doctrine based upon an argument from silence in the New Testament.
conclusion; the verse quoted above in 53:10 is never quoted in the N.T. and misused and abused by PSA proponents to divide the Tri-Unity of God. Isaiah 53 verses are quoted numerous times in the NT but not once is 53:10 for good reason.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
ditto
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I've often used the illustration of "running a stop sign". If you "run a stop sign", don't ask God why you got hit by another INNOCENT person. God didn't have anything to do with it.
civic
Well-known member
More facts @atpollard
The N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement.
There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.
Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins as He declared was a ransom.
And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).
It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
hope this helps !!!
The N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement.
There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.
Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins as He declared was a ransom.
And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).
It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
PSA proponents who misunderstand the sin issue in relation to the Tri- Unity of God.
The issue is the connection with sin and unbelief.
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18).
Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father receiving His anger, wrath, vengeance or retribution.
Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. They remained in perfect unity, harmony, oneness of purpose, fellowship while making atonement for sin a reality and the forgiveness of that sin through His death, burial and resurrection from the dead.
hope this helps !!!
The issue is the connection with sin and unbelief.
Sin is the transgression of the law- 1 John 3:4. Sin is known thorough/by the law- Romans 7:7. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ- Galatians 3:24-25. Where there is no law there is no transgression of the law- Romans 4:14. Sin is not counted against anyone when there is no law. Romans 5:13.
In Colossians 2:13-15 we read the following: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:14-15: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
So, we see from the above scriptures it’s not sin per se that keeps the sinner from God it is unbelief. Faith is the issue. In Romans 5:1-2 we read the following: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God
Its unbelief that keeps one from salvation and places them under condemnation. This is taught throughout the N.T. gospels and epistles. Here we see what Jesus and Paul declared below.
John 3:18: Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John 3:36: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them
Romans 11:20: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Hebrews 3:19: So, we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. Cf Heb 4:6- unbelief
Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18).
Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)
The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father receiving His anger, wrath, vengeance or retribution.
Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. They remained in perfect unity, harmony, oneness of purpose, fellowship while making atonement for sin a reality and the forgiveness of that sin through His death, burial and resurrection from the dead.
hope this helps !!!
makesends
Well-known member
Then how does God's foreknowledge and predestining of all things make him responsible?
civic
Well-known member
Predestining or determining an event like the crucifixion does not make God the responsible one for the evil and sinful acts done by men. The same with Jospephs brothers. God can turn the evil acts of men to work out for His good as with Joseph. What you meant for evil, God meant for good. God turned their sinful acts to work out His good through them. God did not cause them to act evil. He used their evil acts for His good.
makesends
Well-known member
I don't pretend that secondary cause isn't also itself "cause". Almost all causes are secondary.
Of course there is. What's your point?
Do you see the frame of the whole book of Ecclesiastes? Solomon is speaking about the vanity of the human perspective.
I don't blame God for anything. I credit him for his wisdom, forbearance and love, in which he created us and this universe, in every detail.
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