The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[mikesw]

It was not a little argument.
It was an key concept repeated over, and over, and over throughout the Psalm, in the most explicit terms (blot out, cleanse, wash)
A concept that you have repeated to yourself, to your family and congregation several times.
A concept that tears your heart and breaks your bones.

Regarding the context, how am I destroying it?
Murder and adultery in a single act. Sheer violation to God's Law.
And still, hope not just for forgiveness, but for restoration and salvation.

let me try this again. David made this request to God. David has a special relationship with God and God forgave him. This has become an example of the forgiveness we have through faith toward God through Christ. This was not a universal principle to everyone apart from being in Christ.

 

[synergy]

We are not hostile to any religion. We believe Christians who follow Christ are saved. In contrast, many Christians, even in this Forum, believe it is OK that we burn forever in hell. So tell me, my friend, which group is hostile to which group?

He doesn't speak for me. Nevertheless, the video never once promoted Christian Trinitarianism and as such is hostile to Christianity. You possess the freedom to personally deny trinitarianism but the fact remains that Christianity is based on Trinitarianism and any and all remarks against that is hostile to Biblical Christianity.

We don't deny the cross

What exactly did the Bab say about the Cross and Christ's descent into Hades?

Tahirih, yes. And what are the implications here?

Baha'i's most stunning revelation. It pales in light of the revelation of Christ's Divine Transfiguration.

Sure. Christ promised to return, and he also warned about false prophets.

Has there ever been a true Prophet from Persia?

Yes.

Israel had also a long history of producing true and false prophets. Do you agree?
In regard to Zoroaster, peace and glory be to Him. He had a tremendous influence on the religions you and I profess, as currently recognized in academic circles.

Do you know of anyone who follows the beliefs of Zoroaster?

By the grace of God, bestowed upon those who choose to follow the Gospel taught by Christ. Christ is the Word manifested in flesh. So, Christ conquers death because of His Word, His Message, His Gospel. Jesus Himself taught that.

Where in the video is there any mention of the Christian Gospel and how it aligns with all other religions such as Islam?

 

[synergy]

We are not hostile to any religion.

Permit me to explain what I mean by being hostile to a religion.

You can tell me whatever the Baha'i faith believes, with support from its writings, from its history, and from its original language sources, and I'll believe your facts. I will not necessarily believe your religion because my religion will be based on facts of its own and most importantly
I would not superimpose my foreign beliefs against the facts of your local religion. I would respect whatever facts that you present to support your religion which will not necessarily cause me to abandon my religion since I have facts that support my religion.

I can ask questions and inquire about your religion and about the facts behind your religion 'but it's the superimposing of one's foreign beliefs against the facts of another religion that I call being hostile.

This is all assuming that the facts presented on both sides are verifiably true. In the case of the Baha'i faith and the Christian faith, there was very little historical interaction between the two from what I understand so far. So facts presented on both sides should rarely if ever clash. Beliefs will clash but facts should not

If you repeatedly proved to me that the Baha'i faith believes something based on its Holy Writings, on Historical facts, and on its Original Language sources and I continuously disregard those facts then I am behaving in a hostile manner. I should never immediately dismiss presented facts based solely on my preconceived presuppositions. That's what cults are continuously guilty of.

The same things goes for those who continuously disregard Biblical, Historical, Grammatical (English and Greek) facts, and Original Language sources that factually prove that Christianity is Trinitarian. I don't say you do that but many cultists immediately blurt out their preconceived beliefs without ever verifying the facts presented.and In that way they are behaving in a hostile manner.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

let me try this again. David made this request to God. David has a special relationship with God and God forgave him. This has become an example of the forgiveness we have through faith toward God through Christ. This was not a universal principle to everyone apart from being in Christ.

The idea of a easier salvation or a shortcut for salvation based on a “special relationship” has no grounds on Bible or reason.
David had sinned and needed repentance and redemption just as you, me or any man.
In any case, his “special relationship” or position before God made his sin even worse.
That’s what prophet Nathan explained to King David with the parable of the wealthy man who stole the ony sheep of the poor man.

If David could expect his horrible sin to be cleansed by the mercy and compassion of God, you and I can expect the same.
That is the whole point of God having inspired the Psalm that has come to our hands.
The principle taught in the Psalm is universal, not special.

 

[Gloria]

I bought the digital version of the book of this remarkable man. Thank you, Gloria!

Let me share some thoughts about this:

1. The book does not tell the story of a deathbed conversion that I could comment on. Probably your sister did not consider important or appropriate to include it in the book. She says that Lloyd remained "ruthless and fun" to the last day. She says Lloyd believed in an afterlife, and told her not to worry. Then she presents his death as this: "At midnight, on New Year's Eve with the deep sky ablaze with fireworks, air filled with horns, voices cheering with celebration, Lloyd died". That's it.

2. As a Baha'i, if I were asked in my deathbed if I believe in Jesus, or if I love Him, of if I believe Jesus is my Savior, I would answer "yes", as I would answer Yes now. I believe that Jesus is the Word manifested in flesh. It is that Word that give us eternal life, when followed. To be certain of my conversion to Christianity, the person taking care of my on my deathbed should start asking several complex questions on Theology. But it is very unlikely that such person would make them, or that I would be in the mood or capacity to answer them. So, that person, after my death, could go out and tell others that I had a "deathbed conversion" to Christianity, when in reality, I always believed in Jesus as a Baha'i.

3. The only way that you could say a Baha'i has converted to other religion is to hear or read a confession that he does not believe anymore in Bahá'u'lláh a Messenger from God. So, "conversion" from Baha'i Faith to Christianism is not as much about what he thinks of Jesus Christ, but about what he thinks of Bah'au'lláh. If the person at his deathbed didn't ask specifically whether he rejected Baha'u'lláh, or heard such a declaration, it is hard to tell if he abandoned the Baha'i Faith.

4. We can read and watch on the Internet hundreds or thousands of testimonies of people converting from one religion to another. From Christians to Muslims and viceversa,, from Catholics to Protestants and viceversa, even from Christians to Jewish and viceversa. To me, this means that those people had a need of God that was not satisfied within their religious practice, and God led them to a place where they could quench their thirst. To me, it is a powerful testimony that God saves people beyond the borders of formal religion.

The story of his conversion was not in the book as you're right my sister did think it was an appropriate. But here's how it went. Carolyn and Lloyd spent new year's eve day together and during the course of the day Lloyd said to my sister that he "thought he would give this Jesus a try". They discussed it and said the sinners prayer together and he became a Christian. That night the inoperable lung tumor that Lloyd had burst and he went to be with the Lord.

My sister was also the major influence in my becoming a Christian. The point I wanted to make with my prior post was that I'm convinced that the Baha'i faith was a major influence on Lloyd being who he was as a human being. I'm very proud to have known him and been related to him.

And the good news is I'll see him in heaven.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Bob and friends all:

There is no difference between forgiveness and cleansing from sin.

Then what was the Old Testament blood sacrifices, and the necessity for Jesus' sacrifice all about if all we had to do was "forgive" one another???

Read Hebrews 9 for some insight into the necessity for BLOOD SACRIFICE.

If you eliminate the BLOOD, then you eliminate any possibility of personal salvation.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you believe that Muslims who choose to die as Muslims, or Jews who choose to die as Jews, or Baha'is like me who choose to die as Baha'i, deserve to be tortured forever or destroy forever?

YES. Muslims, Jews, Baha'is Confutionists, Athiests, and agnostics alike, if they are NOT BORN AGAIN by FAITH in the SIN OFFEING of Jesus on the cross, remain under gods's condemnation, and will wind up in HELL when they die. God has provided the means of escape.

Other than that, what I believe concerning God's justice doesn't matter at all. Shall the thing made say to Him that hade it: "Why hast thou made me thus??" (Rom 9:20)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Permit me to explain what I mean by being hostile to a religion...

...
I can ask questions and inquire about your religion and about the facts behind your religion 'but it's the superimposing of one's foreign beliefs against the facts of another religion that I call being hostile...

Good morning, synergy
Thanks for the clarification.
Now I understand what you mean by being "hostile". Still, I am worried that the term makes reference to an irrelevant battle... the battle between doctrines that make no difference on the life of people.

The real battle is that of good vs evil; the life of the spirit vs the life of the flesh. The lifestyle of "sheep-on-the-right" vs that of the "goats-on-the-left". The Message of the Bible revolves around this battle.

Even in those few passages in which the apostles speak about heresies and false teachers, they don't spend ink and time refuting heresies theologically, but pointing out to the moral life of those false teachers. That was their concern.
By the same token, when the Bible highlights the importance of truth, it does it in the context of the transformation of life that follows that truth.

So, if I find a religion or church that is calling people to abandon their families and communities to leave in camps, or allow the religious leader to abuse believers, or keep the haves and the haves-not separate, things like that, then I would call it hostile to the Gospel.

 

[civic]

Do you believe that Muslims who choose to die as Muslims, or Jews who choose to die as Jews, or Baha'is like me who choose to die as Baha'i, deserve to be tortured forever or destroy forever?
I think you don't, because that would be a perverse idea, and you are a noble man, created in the image of God.

I want to call the attention from our @Administrator to this matter.
According to the UN Office of Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (please click the link)

"genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:​

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Spreading through an Internet forum the idea that about 2000 million human beings deserve to be tortured forever unless they abandon their religion looks to me as an activity that provides intellectual support to genocide.
I want to be very serious on this matter, dear @Administrator.

I am Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, a 57-year-old man, citizen of Mexico, married, Baha'i, Medical Doctor who lives in Mexico City. My profile photo is my real photo and I participate in this Forum under the nickname "Pancho Frijoles".
I believe that all my Christian fellows will enjoy the presence of God in paradise, regardless of the church or creed in which they choose to live and die. I firmly and publicly reject any attempt, open or hidden, to regard as just the torture or destruction of human beings based on their creed, either in this life or in the afterlife. I oppose that idea because I consider it absurd, devoid of biblical support, and immoral.

And I’m glad you are here interacting with all of us at Berean forum. And I’m happy to see the dialogue taking place with respect from all parties here. It’s a breath of fresh air. We are learning about your beliefs and we appreciate your patience with us explaining and clarifying your beliefs .

Personally I have never interacted with anyone who is Bahai so I’m learning as I read the Q/A. Much appreciated my friend

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So you're closer to Christianity than I thought, although I remember thinking that a long time ago too. Did you know that we can be born again so that we can shed the sin nature and have a clean nature instead?

Hi Charimaticlady

I prefer to think in terms of change of governance.
We are born into a new life because we change of Master.
In the past our master was the flesh and sin: our own desires, fears, vices. In our new life we our Master is God through Jesus Christ.

Certainly, all of these are words or terms we use to try to describe what cannot be so easily described ("be born again", "clean nature", "Master").
Perhaps the only way to describe it is through the fruits of the Spirit.

I understand what you mean about "clean nature", but I don't like the term because many people can get frustrated when they notice that they are in a long-term process where they fail once and once again.
I prefer to say: "You are still human, feeble, fallible. But you have a new Master, which is All Powerful. Trust Him, and He will keep you safe".

 

[mikesw]

The idea of a easier salvation or a shortcut for salvation based on a “special relationship” has no grounds on Bible or reason.
David had sinned and needed repentance and redemption just as you, me or any man.
In any case, his “special relationship” or position before God made his sin even worse.
That’s what prophet Nathan explained to King David with the parable of the wealthy man who stole the ony sheep of the poor man.

If David could expect his horrible sin to be cleansed by the mercy and compassion of God, you and I can expect the same.
That is the whole point of God having inspired the Psalm that has come to our hands.
The principle taught in the Psalm is universal, not special.

I'm just sharing what the broad situation is and no Christian has learned that there is a shortcut to justification other than faith toward God which is through Christ Jesus now. If you do not trust that message of faith alone through Christ alone, that is a hopeless situation. And people often recognize that they are in that hopeless state, especially in religions like Islam.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Is God obligated to your conception of genocide or does God have the right to destroy those who hate him?

.

This is a very important question and I would like to answer it for you but also for @Bob Carabbio and all friends reading the thread.

We follow a moral God. A good God. Otherwise, we should not follow Him.
For example, Why don't we follow Moloch?
Well, because Moloch demands to sacrifice children, and to take care of statues as if they had intrinsic powers. Do you agree?
We couldn't say "I don't follow Moloch because the Bible forbids me to follow Moloch", since Moloch's worshipper could come to us saying "Well, I don't follow YHWH because Moloch's prophets/priests forbid me to follow YHWH".
We follow a moral God. A good God. Otherwise, we would not follow Him.

Now, let's see how this apply in a real-life scenario.

If the building where an Evangelical congregation is praying collapses, and you know that good Christians were killed, you don't think that God murdered those fellows out of hate or revenge. You think that God is Good, and has prepared paradise for them. Furthermore, you think that someday, perhaps in the afterlife, everyone will recognize Good was good because the outcome for those killed fellows will be good.

So, when we say that we don't understand God's ways, we mean that we don't understand how he accomplishes his purposes of love and justice. We don't mean that our God can be evil and unfair as he pleases. That would be the pagan conception of their gods.

We believe that Hitler's murderous acts against Jews were bad. Why did God allow that evil?
Because He had a better plan towards those Jews that will end up in their happiness. We don't believe that God is torturing those Jews in a gas chamber right now. That would justify Hitler's action.

 

[synergy]

Good morning, synergy
Thanks for the clarification.
Now I understand what you mean by being "hostile". Still, I am worried that the term makes reference to an irrelevant battle... the battle between doctrines that make no difference on the life of people.

The real battle is that of good vs evil; the life of the spirit vs the life of the flesh. The lifestyle of "sheep-on-the-right" vs that of the "goats-on-the-left". The Message of the Bible revolves around this battle.

Even in those few passages in which the apostles speak about heresies and false teachers, they don't spend ink and time refuting heresies theologically, but pointing out to the moral life of those false teachers. That was their concern.
By the same token, when the Bible highlights the importance of truth, it does it in the context of the transformation of life that follows that truth.

So, if I find a religion or church that is calling people to abandon their families and communities to leave in camps, or allow the religious leader to abuse believers, or keep the haves and the haves-not separate, things like that, then I would call it hostile to the Gospel.

What do courts do when they want to establish who is right and who is wrong? They always hunt for the facts of the case. Only after that do they pass judgment against whoever was in the wrong. That's why facts must come before judgment is rendered. I'm not discounting morality. I'm just saying that the facts must be presented first and only then can morality be allowed to manifest its judgments.

So if I disregard the facts of your religion and superimpose my foreign contradictory beliefs against the facts of your religion then that is a form of hostility. If you want to call that act anything else other than hostility then you are free to do so. I'm open to calling it something else as long as it does not water down the ramifications that accompany such actions.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What do courts do when they want to establish who is right and who is wrong? They always hunt for the facts of the case.

Absolutely.
Certainly, I think that most of Forum members, including you and me, want to be honest with factual information.
At the same time, we all come from preconceived ideas. We are all biased.
Even scientists, who are trained to be as objective as possible, often fail to recognize their own errors until much later, due to their personal biases.

Finally, we must admit that faith is supported partially by facts, but does not derive from facts. Otherwise it would not be faith, but science.

I am totally convinced, for example, that there is no objective support for the doctrine of the Trinity, nor a substitutionary blood atonement as a prerequisite for God's mercy. Based on what I consider robust arguments, I debate.
For you or others, I might be superimposing my personal bias onto factual information. For me, you might be superimposing your personal bias onto factual information.
Both positions cannot be true at the same time in the same context/manner. That's why we debate.
But then, although only one position may be right, "being right" will not necessarily save us, nor "being wrong" will necessarily condemn us.

Bah'a'u'lláh warn us that if such debates are the source of anger and division, both parties are wrong, including the "orthodox" side.

 

[synergy]

Absolutely.
Certainly, I think that most of Forum members, including you and me, want to be honest with factual information.
At the same time, we all come from preconceived ideas. We are all biased.
Even scientists, who are trained to be as objective as possible, often fail to recognize their own errors until much later, due to their personal biases.

Finally, we must admit that faith is supported partially by facts, but does not derive from facts. Otherwise it would not be faith, but science.

I am totally convinced, for example, that there is no objective support for the doctrine of the Trinity, nor a substitutionary blood atonement as a prerequisite for God's mercy. Based on what I consider robust arguments, I debate.
For you or others, I might be superimposing my personal bias onto factual information. For me, you might be superimposing your personal bias onto factual information.
Both positions cannot be true at the same time in the same context/manner. That's why we debate.
But then, although only one position may be right, "being right" will not necessarily save us, nor "being wrong" will necessarily condemn us.

Bah'a'u'lláh warn us that if such debates are the source of anger and division, both parties are wrong, including the "orthodox" side.

As long as the facts are clearly laid out then each one of us can decide which faith is on the side of truth and morality. Both faiths are moral so it's just a question of truth and facts. Whoever gets angry at facts should not be searching for the truth.

There is clear objective (truthful) support for the Divinity of Christ. From the Old Testament Theophanies of the Pre-Incarnate Christ, to John 1's declaration of "the Word was God" and "the Word was made flesh" as Christ, to Christ's explicit declaration that he was the "I Am" of the OT before even Abraham existed, to the fact that only God saves and Jesus is our Savior, to what only Jesus could do to Hades and ensured eternal life for all believers, to Thomas' exclamation of "My Lord and My God!", this is all crystal clear to all those who thirst after "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" who is none other than the Uncreated Word of God Jesus Christ. I can mention many more facts but these should suffice for now.

As for the facts of the Baha'i faith, I can appreciate how the Bab was very intelligent and could brilliantly convert Muslims to his faith but that's pretty well it as far as I can tell. That severely pales and vanishes before the facts and truths of Biblical Christianity.

 

[charismaticlady]

Hi Charimaticlady

I prefer to think in terms of change of governance.
We are born into a new life because we change of Master.
In the past our master was the flesh and sin: our own desires, fears, vices. In our new life we our Master is God through Jesus Christ.

Certainly, all of these are words or terms we use to try to describe what cannot be so easily described ("be born again", "clean nature", "Master").
Perhaps the only way to describe it is through the fruits of the Spirit.

I understand what you mean about "clean nature", but I don't like the term because many people can get frustrated when they notice that they are in a long-term process where they fail once and once again.
I prefer to say: "You are still human, feeble, fallible. But you have a new Master, which is All Powerful. Trust Him, and He will keep you safe".

Wow! Baha'i is like a Christian denomination. From one of your prior posts I got sort of a mixture of Christianity and Muslim. Is that true?

 

[mikesw]

This is a very important question and I would like to answer it for you but also for @Bob Carabbio and all friends reading the thread.

We follow a moral God. A good God. Otherwise, we should not follow Him.
For example, Why don't we follow Moloch?
Well, because Moloch demands to sacrifice children, and to take care of statues as if they had intrinsic powers. Do you agree?
We couldn't say "I don't follow Moloch because the Bible forbids me to follow Moloch", since Moloch's worshipper could come to us saying "Well, I don't follow YHWH because Moloch's prophets/priests forbid me to follow YHWH".
We follow a moral God. A good God. Otherwise, we would not follow Him.

Now, let's see how this apply in a real-life scenario.

If the building where an Evangelical congregation is praying collapses, and you know that good Christians were killed, you don't think that God murdered those fellows out of hate or revenge. You think that God is Good, and has prepared paradise for them. Furthermore, you think that someday, perhaps in the afterlife, everyone will recognize Good was good because the outcome for those killed fellows will be good.

So, when we say that we don't understand God's ways, we mean that we don't understand how he accomplishes his purposes of love and justice. We don't mean that our God can be evil and unfair as he pleases. That would be the pagan conception of their gods.

We believe that Hitler's murderous acts against Jews were bad. Why did God allow that evil?
Because He had a better plan towards those Jews that will end up in their happiness. We don't believe that God is torturing those Jews in a gas chamber right now. That would justify Hitler's action.

You should be happy with Moloch since you accept the gods of all the religions. The problem of these false gods is they are of human design and impulse.
We recognize that God has judged those nations that had false gods but as far as anything else documented of later judgments, there is nothing to document that in scriptures. If you deny Christ whom God has sent, how are you hoping to be with God in an afterlife? If you accuse God, then your mind is set against God.
You sort of have a choice of preference with God and justice. God could destroy the world again because of its evil desires and hatred of God or God can let it persist and work out his plan of saving the world. Yes many people have suffered. But people still are alive and still having children and life continues. I think it is fantastic that I am alive.
God works out the justice and continuation of life according to his wisdom. He gives eternal life through Christ Jesus for those who do not deny the Son whom God has sent.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As long as the facts are clearly laid out then each one of us can decide which faith is on the side of truth and morality. Both faiths are moral so it's just a question of truth and facts. Whoever gets angry at facts should not be searching for the truth.

There is clear objective (truthful) support for the Divinity of Christ.... I can mention many more facts but these should suffice for now.

I appreciate that there are a lot of arguments in favor of opposite views about this issue, and it is better to confine the bulk of that discussion to the threads about the Trinity.

In this thread I may only add Baha'i-specific views on top of those also held by Unitarian Christians.
This is one of them:

Bah'au'lláh said that Christ, being a Manifestation of God, could in all truth have said "I am God" .
He uses the analogy of a mirror and the sun. He asks us to imagine a the rays of the sun being reflected on a perfect mirror on earth. Whoever looked into the mirror, could say "Hey! Look! The sun is here!" and that person would be right.

In contrast with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims, Baha'is don't feel a need to refute the Trinity. When I participate in the debate, my purpose is to let other people know that Unitarians are neither ignorant nor dishonest in believing what they believe, so that we establish the ground for mutual appreciation as children of God. However, my interest in the debate is rarely seen across Baha'i communities. You won't find pamphlets, magazine articles or Youtube videos trying to persuade Christians against the doctrine of Trinity.

The reason for this lack of interest is that we believe that being "right" about the intimate nature of Christ, is far less important than being right about the abundant life resulting from following Christ. We see revelation more in terms of "education", "instruction" to live a better life, so we are not worried about the correct interpretation of every single word, or the inerrancy of Scriptures on topics that are not essential to get closer to God.

 

[mikesw]

I appreciate that there are a lot of arguments in favor of opposite views about this issue, and it is better to confine the bulk of that discussion to the threads about the Trinity.

In this thread I may only add Baha'i-specific views on top of those also held by Unitarian Christians.
This is one of them:

Bah'au'lláh said that Christ, being a Manifestation of God, could in all truth have said "I am God" .
He uses the analogy of a mirror and the sun. He asks us to imagine a the rays of the sun being reflected on a perfect mirror on earth. However looked into the mirror, could say "Hey! Look! The sun is here!" and that person would be right.

In contrast with Jehovah Witnesses or Muslims, Baha'is don't feel a need to refute the Trinity. When I participate in the debate, my purpose is to let other people know that Unitarians are neither ignorant nor dishonest in believing what they believe, so that we establish the ground for mutual appreciation as children of God. However, my interest in the debate is rarely seen across Baha'i communities. You won't find pamphlets, magazine articles or Youtube videos trying to persuade Christians against the doctrine of Trinity.

The reason for this lack of interest is that we believe that being "right" about the intimate nature of Christ, is far less important than being right about the abundant life resulting from following Christ.

in many ways you cannot enjoy the eternal life through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus unless you have the right sense of who he is. It really is dangerous to think that Jesus is one of many manifestations. The road is wide to destruction. You obviously present a contradiction about including Christ the Son and God the Father into the Baha'i Faith as if like the gods of the other "manifestations"

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

in many ways you cannot enjoy the eternal life through the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus unless you have the right sense of who he is. It really is dangerous to think that Jesus is one of many manifestations. The road is wide to destruction.

To test your assumption, we would need to observe the daily lifes of religious people who believe or not believe in a specific doctrine.

Take, for example, the physical resurrection of Jesus.
How believing vs not believing such doctrine makes people love more or love less God and their neighbors?

Or take the fate of the wicked.
Is the crime rate lower in those who believe in the eternal lake of fire vs those who believe in annihilation or the universalists?
On what basis we say that people who do not believe in X doctrine enjoy less eternal life?