The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[Pancho Frijoles]

That proves that the Quran is for that time period only and can now be disposed of. Thank you for that confirmation.

Some surahs are not applicable, just as some verses of the Tanakh and the New Testament are not applicable.
Some verses in the Baha'i writings are not applicable as well.

This happens with all sacred texts, because they were written to address both universal needs and specific, temporary needs.

So, in summary, the Baha'i Faith believes not just in tolerance, but active brotherhood with people of other religions. We do not leverage any verse in the Bible or the Quran to support behaviors that we believe are not appropriate in the present circumstances. We believe in the divine origin and purpose of those writings despite the presence of such inapplicable verses.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I rely solely on the Scriptures, @Pancho Frijoles, and my response to you was rooted in biblical texts, without introducing any new revelations.

If you desire the truth as it is clearly presented in Scripture, free from circular reasoning-of which I am well aware-please let me know.

J.

Hi Johann

Every belief in the divine inspiration of a book ends up in circular reasoning, because ultimately it relies on faith.
Let me give you an example: You say you rely solely on the Scriptures, but for a Jew you are relying on the wrong set of Scriptures... So, proving your point to a Jew would need her to accept, at some point, that the New Testament is not a fraud.

There is no way that a Jew can be convinced on the divine inspiration of Paul's epistle to Romans, or a Christian convinced on the divine inspiration of a particular surah of the Quran, or a Muslim to be convinced on the divine inspiration of The Hidden Words from Bahá'u'lláh, except on FAITH.

Beyond faith, we try in these discussions in Internet to walk together avoiding circular thinking as much as possible. We honestly use our limited logic, knowledge or experience... and what we do is basically sharing pieces that we think are "supportive of" or "compatible with" our beliefs, but not conclusive in proving divine truth.

For example, to me, the fact that the Bible is a collection of sacred texts over 2000 to 3000 years, in which in no place God warned He would stop speaking to men (which is the essence of the gift of prophecy), is indeed supportive of, or compatible with... progressive revelation.

However, it does not prove my point... and even if it proved it, we would still have to discuss things like if the Holy Spirit revealed the Fathers of the Church that Mary was always virgin and the Mother of God, or whether God revealed Joseph Smith that the Father has a physical body.

 

[Johann]

Every belief in the divine inspiration of a sacred book ends up in circular reasoning, because ultimately it relies on FAITH.
Let me give you an example: You say you rely solely on the Scriptures, but for a Jew you are relying on the wrong set of Scriptures... So, proving your point to a Jew would need the Jewish to accept, at some point, that the New Testament is not a fraud.

The concern you raise about faith and circular reasoning is common when discussing divine inspiration across different belief systems. Faith indeed plays a crucial role in accepting any set of sacred texts, but it’s also useful to examine why believers hold certain texts as divinely inspired and authoritative.

For Christians, the New Testament complements the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures), fulfilling prophecies, concepts, and messianic expectations established in Jewish texts. Jesus himself referenced the Hebrew Scriptures extensively, affirming their authority and showing continuity with the New Testament. This continuity isn’t based merely on personal faith; it's grounded in historical and textual links, where the New Testament authors interpret and fulfill themes from the Old Testament in ways meaningful to first-century Jews and Gentiles alike.

When addressing a Jewish audience, Christians do not simply ask them to accept the New Testament without evidence or context. Instead, they often present the historical, prophetic, and theological continuity between the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, particularly how the New Testament claims to fulfill the messianic prophecies that many Jewish interpretations may not recognize or interpret in the same way.

For instance, prophecies like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, which speak of a suffering servant and one whose hands and feet are pierced, are seen by Christians as pointing to Jesus in ways that are both specific and unprecedented. These texts, combined with the life and resurrection claims of Jesus, offer a framework that Christians believe validates the New Testament's authority as a continuation and fulfillment of God’s revelation.

Yes, there’s faith involved, but it’s a faith rooted in interpretation, historical analysis, and theological coherence, not a blind leap without reason or context.

There is no way that a Jew can be convinced on the divine inspiration of Paul's epistle to Romans, or a Christian convinced on the divine inspiration of a particular surah of the Quran, or a Muslim to be convinced on the divine inspiration of The Hidden Words from Bahá'u'lláh, except on FAITH.

You’re right in noting that faith is an essential part of believing in the divine inspiration of any religious text. Faith serves as the foundation upon which believers in various traditions accept their texts as authoritative and inspired by God. However, while faith is crucial, it's often supported by additional factors like historical context, philosophical coherence, fulfilled prophecies, and transformative effects in the lives of believers, which give reasons for faith beyond a simple belief in divine inspiration.

For instance, Christians point to the consistency and fulfillment of prophecies from the Old Testament in the life and teachings of Jesus as evidence that supports the divine inspiration of the New Testament, including Paul’s epistles. Many Jews, in turn, find this view incompatible with their understanding of Torah and prophecy. For Muslims, faith in the Quran is reinforced by its linguistic style and the claim that it was directly revealed to Muhammad in Arabic—a unique and preserved text in Islam’s view. Similarly, Baháʼís see the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh as spiritually relevant, continuing what they understand to be progressive revelation.

Each tradition, therefore, involves faith but also brings a framework of reasons, historical claims, and transformative teachings that support their texts' claims to divine inspiration. So while faith may ultimately seal one's belief, it is often not without rational, spiritual, and historical context that helps adherents find confidence in their sacred texts. This complexity of faith and reason forms the bridge many rely on to make sense of and commit to their scriptures.

For example, to me, the fact that the Bible is a collection of sacred texts over 2000 to 3000 years, in which in no place God warned He would stop speaking to men (which is the essence of the gift of prophecy), is indeed supportive of progressive revelation.

It does not prove it, certainly... and even if it proved it, we would still have to discuss, on another very different discussion, if the Holy Spirit revealed the Fathers of the Church that Mary is the Mother of God, or whether God revealed Joseph Smith that the Father has a physical body.

Your perspective on the Bible as a progressive revelation is shared by many who see the continuity and unfolding nature of God’s communication with humanity throughout scripture. Indeed, the Old Testament shows periods where God communicated in various ways—through the law, prophets, psalms, and wisdom literature—each adding depth to Israel’s understanding of God’s character and purpose. In the New Testament, this progression is seen in the person of Jesus, whom Christians believe embodies the fulfillment of earlier promises and prophecies, marking a significant turning point in God’s revelation.

However, while the Bible does not explicitly say that prophecy would cease, the New Testament does describe Jesus as God’s ultimate revelation (Hebrews 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit as guiding the apostles and early church in truth (John 16:13).

This has led many Christians to hold that the Bible represents a completed canon, containing all that is necessary for faith and life. As such, the authority of later teachings or revelations is often assessed in light of biblical doctrine.

For example, claims of Mary as “Mother of God” are grounded in scriptural affirmations of Jesus’ divinity but are primarily theological conclusions from the Church Fathers. Similarly, beliefs like Joseph Smith’s view of God having a physical body are seen by many Christians as divergent from the Bible’s depiction of God as Spirit (John 4:24).

Thus, progressive revelation in the biblical sense is often seen as unfolding within a bounded framework, with newer understandings not contradicting the foundational truths of scripture but rather illuminating them. This approach helps maintain coherence across the scriptures while respecting the original messages given to humanity throughout biblical history.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Johann]

Every belief in the divine inspiration of a sacred book ends up in circular reasoning, because ultimately it relies on FAITH.
Let me give you an example: You say you rely solely on the Scriptures, but for a Jew you are relying on the wrong set of Scriptures... So, proving your point to a Jew would need the Jewish to accept, at some point, that the New Testament is not a fraud.

The concern you raise about faith and circular reasoning is common when discussing divine inspiration across different belief systems. Faith indeed plays a crucial role in accepting any set of sacred texts, but it’s also useful to examine why believers hold certain texts as divinely inspired and authoritative.

For Christians, the New Testament complements the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures), fulfilling prophecies, concepts, and messianic expectations established in Jewish texts. Jesus himself referenced the Hebrew Scriptures extensively, affirming their authority and showing continuity with the New Testament. This continuity isn’t based merely on personal faith; it's grounded in historical and textual links, where the New Testament authors interpret and fulfill themes from the Old Testament in ways meaningful to first-century Jews and Gentiles alike.

When addressing a Jewish audience, Christians do not simply ask them to accept the New Testament without evidence or context. Instead, they often present the historical, prophetic, and theological continuity between the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, particularly how the New Testament claims to fulfill the messianic prophecies that many Jewish interpretations may not recognize or interpret in the same way.

For instance, prophecies like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, which speak of a suffering servant and one whose hands and feet are pierced, are seen by Christians as pointing to Jesus in ways that are both specific and unprecedented. These texts, combined with the life and resurrection claims of Jesus, offer a framework that Christians believe validates the New Testament's authority as a continuation and fulfillment of God’s revelation.

Yes, there’s faith involved, but it’s a faith rooted in interpretation, historical analysis, and theological coherence, not a blind leap without reason or context.

There is no way that a Jew can be convinced on the divine inspiration of Paul's epistle to Romans, or a Christian convinced on the divine inspiration of a particular surah of the Quran, or a Muslim to be convinced on the divine inspiration of The Hidden Words from Bahá'u'lláh, except on FAITH.

You’re right in noting that faith is an essential part of believing in the divine inspiration of any religious text. Faith serves as the foundation upon which believers in various traditions accept their texts as authoritative and inspired by God. However, while faith is crucial, it's often supported by additional factors like historical context, philosophical coherence, fulfilled prophecies, and transformative effects in the lives of believers, which give reasons for faith beyond a simple belief in divine inspiration.

For instance, Christians point to the consistency and fulfillment of prophecies from the Old Testament in the life and teachings of Jesus as evidence that supports the divine inspiration of the New Testament, including Paul’s epistles. Many Jews, in turn, find this view incompatible with their understanding of Torah and prophecy. For Muslims, faith in the Quran is reinforced by its linguistic style and the claim that it was directly revealed to Muhammad in Arabic—a unique and preserved text in Islam’s view. Similarly, Baháʼís see the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh as spiritually relevant, continuing what they understand to be progressive revelation.

Each tradition, therefore, involves faith but also brings a framework of reasons, historical claims, and transformative teachings that support their texts' claims to divine inspiration. So while faith may ultimately seal one's belief, it is often not without rational, spiritual, and historical context that helps adherents find confidence in their sacred texts. This complexity of faith and reason forms the bridge many rely on to make sense of and commit to their scriptures.

For example, to me, the fact that the Bible is a collection of sacred texts over 2000 to 3000 years, in which in no place God warned He would stop speaking to men (which is the essence of the gift of prophecy), is indeed supportive of progressive revelation.

It does not prove it, certainly... and even if it proved it, we would still have to discuss, on another very different discussion, if the Holy Spirit revealed the Fathers of the Church that Mary is the Mother of God, or whether God revealed Joseph Smith that the Father has a physical body.

Your perspective on the Bible as a progressive revelation is shared by many who see the continuity and unfolding nature of God’s communication with humanity throughout scripture. Indeed, the Old Testament shows periods where God communicated in various ways—through the law, prophets, psalms, and wisdom literature—each adding depth to Israel’s understanding of God’s character and purpose. In the New Testament, this progression is seen in the person of Jesus, whom Christians believe embodies the fulfillment of earlier promises and prophecies, marking a significant turning point in God’s revelation.

However, while the Bible does not explicitly say that prophecy would cease, the New Testament does describe Jesus as God’s ultimate revelation (Hebrews 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit as guiding the apostles and early church in truth (John 16:13).

This has led many Christians to hold that the Bible represents a completed canon, containing all that is necessary for faith and life. As such, the authority of later teachings or revelations is often assessed in light of biblical doctrine.

For example, claims of Mary as “Mother of God” are grounded in scriptural affirmations of Jesus’ divinity but are primarily theological conclusions from the Church Fathers. Similarly, beliefs like Joseph Smith’s view of God having a physical body are seen by many Christians as divergent from the Bible’s depiction of God as Spirit (John 4:24).

Thus, progressive revelation in the biblical sense is often seen as unfolding within a bounded framework, with newer understandings not contradicting the foundational truths of scripture but rather illuminating them. This approach helps maintain coherence across the scriptures while respecting the original messages given to humanity throughout biblical history.

The Hidden Words is a central text of the Bahá'í Faith, written by Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the faith, around 1858. Composed in two parts—Arabic and Persian—The Hidden Words consists of brief, poetic statements or "sayings" attributed to God, each meant to convey spiritual guidance and ethical principles for living a life close to God. Bahá'u'lláh described it as a "distillation" of spiritual wisdom, suggesting it condenses the essence of divine teachings from past revelations.

The text emphasizes virtues such as love, humility, truthfulness, and justice. Rather than being presented as doctrinal teachings or commandments, the sayings are meant to invite deep reflection and personal spiritual growth. For Bahá'ís, The Hidden Words serves as an essential devotional work, a guide for character development, and a source of daily inspiration.

Some of the themes---

Divine Love and Guidance: Many passages express God's love and care for humanity, urging people to seek closeness to God and to recognize divine beauty in the world. No Scripture

Selflessness and Detachment: Several verses call on individuals to transcend selfish desires and ego, focusing instead on altruism and service to others.

The Human Soul's Potential: The text speaks about the noble nature of the human soul and its potential to reflect divine attributes through a righteous life.

Accountability and Virtue: Bahá'u'lláh calls readers to cultivate virtues and to see actions as part of a spiritual journey, where true success is measured by one’s moral and spiritual growth.

For followers of the Bahá'í Faith, The Hidden Words is considered one of Bahá'u'lláh’s most intimate and universal works, offering insights that resonate with concepts from other religious traditions while presenting Bahá'í principles in a concise, meditative form.

The indicatives and imperatives recorded in my Bible are my sword and shield, both offense and defense. The Quran or any other source outside of the Christian Bible simply doesn’t compare. It’s striking how many cults rely on extra-biblical writings..

Thanks.

J.

 

[mikesw]

Hi Johann

Every belief in the divine inspiration of a book ends up in circular reasoning, because ultimately it relies on faith.
Let me give you an example: You say you rely solely on the Scriptures, but for a Jew you are relying on the wrong set of Scriptures... So, proving your point to a Jew would need her to accept, at some point, that the New Testament is not a fraud.

There is no way that a Jew can be convinced on the divine inspiration of Paul's epistle to Romans, or a Christian convinced on the divine inspiration of a particular surah of the Quran, or a Muslim to be convinced on the divine inspiration of The Hidden Words from Bahá'u'lláh, except on FAITH.

Beyond faith, we try in these discussions in Internet to walk together avoiding circular thinking as much as possible. We honestly use our limited logic, knowledge or experience... and what we do is basically sharing pieces that we think are "supportive of" or "compatible with" our beliefs, but not conclusive in proving divine truth.

For example, to me, the fact that the Bible is a collection of sacred texts over 2000 to 3000 years, in which in no place God warned He would stop speaking to men (which is the essence of the gift of prophecy), is indeed supportive of, or compatible with... progressive revelation.

However, it does not prove my point... and even if it proved it, we would still have to discuss things like if the Holy Spirit revealed the Fathers of the Church that Mary was always virgin and the Mother of God, or whether God revealed Joseph Smith that the Father has a physical body.

Jews can be convinced of the divine inspiration of Paul's epistles. These Jews do realize that Christ Jesus is the Promised One. Dr. James Tour is one of those. He also tells Jews to go ahead and read the OT but a bit more he says read the NT twice through and see if you do not realize Jesus is the Messiah. Even I came to Christ after reading the Gideon's NT. I knew to look for a church but I was lazy. God brought the church to me.

 

[Johann]

Jews can be convinced of the divine inspiration of Paul's epistles. These Jews do realize that Christ Jesus is the Promised One. Dr. James Tour is one of those. He also tells Jews to go ahead and read the OT but a bit more he says read the NT twice through and see if you do not realize Jesus is the Messiah. Even I came to Christ after reading the Gideon's NT. I knew to look for a church but I was lazy. God brought the church to me.

I have to agree-rather weak from @Pancho Frijoles-no offense.

There is no reason for a modern Jew not to read the New Testament in Hebrew-let me illustrate-


Rom 11:1 I ask, therefore, has Hashem repudiated His people? Not at all! Chas v'shalom! For I too am a ben Yisroel, of the zera Avraham (seed of Avraham Avinu), of the tribe of Binyamin.
Rom 11:2 Hashem has not repudiated His people whom He foreknew [TEHILLIM 94:14; Ro 8:29]. Or do you not have da’as what the Kitvei Hakodesh says in the section about Eliyahu HaNavi, how he appeals to Hashem against Yisroel?
Rom 11:3 "Adonoi, they have killed your Nevi’im, they have torn down your mizbe'achot (altars), and I alone have been left, and they seek my life." [MELACHIM ALEF 19:10]
Rom 11:4 But what is Hashem's answer to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al." [MELACHIM ALEF 19:18]
Rom 11:5 Thus, therefore, also in the zman hazeh, there has come into being a she'erit (remnant, remainder) in accordance with the bechirah (election) of chesed (free, unmerited favor or grace).
Rom 11:6 But if on the mekor (basis) of chen v’chesed (unmerited favor, grace), then not on the mekor (basis) of [loin (wages), batsolen (pay) for] ma'asim (works), vi-bahlt (since) otherwise chesed would no longer be chesed (4:4-5).
Rom 11:7 What then? What Yisroel sought for, that is what it did not obtain; but hannivcharim (the elect, the chosen ones) obtained it. And the rest were hardened (9:17-18)
Rom 11:8 As it is written, "G-d gave to them a ruach tardemah (spirit of deep sleep), eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, until this very day" [Isa 29:10].
Rom 11:9 And Dovid said, "Let their shulchan (table) become a snare and a net, a trap and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 " Let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." TEHILLIM 68:23-24 TARGUM HASHIVIM; [69:22-23].
Gentiles Grafted In
Rom 11:11 I ask, therefore, have they stumbled so as to fall? Chas v'shalom! But by their peysha (transgression), Yeshu'at Eloheinu is coming to the Goyim in order to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 And if their peysha (transgression) means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Goyim, how much more will their fullness mean!
Rom 11:13 I am speaking to you Goyim. So then, in as much as I am Shliach of the Ethnic Groups, I magnify my avodas kodesh, in the tikvah
Rom 11:14 that I might provoke my kinsmen to jealousy and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means ritztzuy (reconciliation, cessation of enmity, hostility between a wrathful holy G-d and sinful men) for the gontzer velt (whole world), what shall their acceptance mean other than Chayyim min haMesim (Life from the dead ones)?
Rom 11:16 If the terumah haissa (portion, offering of the dough) that is reshit (first) is kodesh (holy), so is the whole; and if the shoresh (root) is kodesh (holy), so also are the ana'fim (the branches).
Rom 11:17 But if some of the ana'fim have been broken off, and you, a wild olive, have been grafted among them and have become sharer in the richness of the olive tree's root,
Rom 11:18 Do not boast (4:2) over the ana'fim. If you do boast, it is not the case that you sustain the shoresh, but the shoresh sustains you.
Rom 11:19 You will say, then, "Anafim were broken off in order that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite so: they were broken off on the mekor (basis) of no emunah, but you stand only by emunah. Do not cherish proud thoughts, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if G-d did not spare the natural anafim, neither will He spare you.
Rom 11:22 Consider then the nedivut (generosity), the chesed of Hashem, and also the fearful judgment of Hashem: to those who fell (11:15), severity; but to you the goodness of Hashem, provided that you continue in that goodness; otherwise, you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 Whereas, they also, if they do not continue in a condition of no emunah, shall be grafted in; for Hashem is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you [Goyim] were cut off from the wild olive tree and grafted unnaturally into the cultivated olive tree, how much more shall those who belong to it naturally be grafted into their own olive tree.
The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be unaware, Achim b'Moshiach, of this raz (mystery), lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a hardening in part has come over Yisroel, until the full number of the Goyim has come in;
Rom 11:26 And so Klal Yisroel shall be delivered, as it is written: "Out of Tziyon shall come the Go'el (Deliverer, Redeemer); He will turn away, remove peysha from Ya'akov (Jacob),
Rom 11:27 "And this will be My Berit (covenant) with them, when I take away their sins" YESHAYAH 59:20-21; 27:9.
Rom 11:28 With regard to the Besuras HaGeulah they are oyevim (enemies) for your [you Goyim] sake, whereas with regard to the bechirah (election) they are beloved for the sake of the Avot (Fathers).
Rom 11:29 For the matnat Hashem and the kri'at Hashem are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you Goyim were once without mishma'at to Hashem, but now have received chaninah (mercy, pardon) by their lack of mishma'at,
Rom 11:31 So also they have now been without mishma'at for your chaninah (mercy, pardon) in order that they also might receive chaninah (mercy) (Ro 9:15-16).
Rom 11:32 For G-d has confined all in disobedience in order that He might have chaninah (mercy) on all;
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and the chochmah (wisdom) and da'as (knowledge) of Hashem. How unfathomable are His mishpatim and unsearchable His ways.
Rom 11:34 For who has known the Ruach of Hashem? Or who has been ISH ATZATO ("His Counselor") [Isa 40:13]?
Rom 11:35 Or who has given in advance to Him so that His presents come only as a (choiv) debt repaid? [IYOV 41:3 (11); Ro 4:4]
Rom 11:36 Because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. Lo HaKavod l'Olamim. Omein. ("To Him be glory forever. Amen.")
OJB

I use THIS Bible with my Messianic brothers and sisters.


J.

 

[synergy]

Some surahs are not applicable, just as some verses of the Tanakh and the New Testament are not applicable.
Some verses in the Baha'i writings are not applicable as well.

This happens with all sacred texts, because they were written to address both universal needs and specific, temporary needs.

So, in summary, the Baha'i Faith believes not just in tolerance, but active brotherhood with people of other religions. We do not leverage any verse in the Bible or the Quran to support behaviors that we believe are not appropriate in the present circumstances. We believe in the divine origin and purpose of those writings despite the presence of such inapplicable verses.

So each person is the final judge/authority in deciding which verse to follow and which verse to throw out the window. This makes for a very subjective religion that is wide open to alterations. Tell you what. Let me exercise my own judgment, as your religion allows me, and permit me to throw all Quranic verses out the window. After all my alterations, I am left with only the Bible. There, I'm beginning to like your religion.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So each person is the final judge/authority in deciding which verse to follow and which verse to throw out the window.

No, baha'is don't believe that.
First we have the revelation of Baháu'lláh to make sense of many of those verses.
We have also science, reason, and above everything, the Holy Spirit.

In the Baha'i Faith we believe in the free investigation of truth as a basic principle of individual and community life.

In the example you are bringing, you should reject the Quran if you are convinced, after such investigation, that it does not lead you to God.
It would be immoral to accept something that you honestly reject.

"Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason, whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind, or the faculty of reasoning, by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth, and that which he finds real and true he must accept. He must not be an imitator or blind follower of any soul. He must not rely implicitly upon the opinion of any man without investigation; nay, each soul must seek intelligently and independently, arriving at a real conclusion and bound only by that reality."

(Abdul Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

 

[mikesw]

No, baha'is don't believe that.
First we have the revelation of Baháu'lláh to make sense of many of those verses.
We have also science, reason, and above everything, the Holy Spirit.

In the Baha'i Faith we believe in the free investigation of truth as a basic principle of individual and community life.

In the example you are bringing, you should reject the Quran if you are convinced, after such investigation, that it does not lead you to God.
It would be immoral to accept something that you honestly reject.

"Furthermore, know ye that God has created in man the power of reason, whereby man is enabled to investigate reality. God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind, or the faculty of reasoning, by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth, and that which he finds real and true he must accept. He must not be an imitator or blind follower of any soul. He must not rely implicitly upon the opinion of any man without investigation; nay, each soul must seek intelligently and independently, arriving at a real conclusion and bound only by that reality."

(Abdul Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace)

so each person determines their idea of truth instead of accepting the truth of scripture found in the christian bible, as ordained by God. There is a way that seems right to a man but in the end is death. Must be pleasant to bahai people to lead men to death.

 

[mikesw]

Why would anyone follow some teaching apart from Christ Jesus? Jesus is the one promised from the fall of man. Jesus is the one promised to Abraham. Jesus is the Prophet like unto Moses. Jesus is the ruler promised in Daniel. Jesus is the one who had a forerunner to prepare the way for Christ. Jesus is the one resurrected from the dead to testify who he is.
What basis does Buddha have, especially since he was only a philosopher? What basis for Mohammed to be recognized from any writings previous to him? Then Mírzá Husayn appeared without any scriptural expectation of him starting a new following. Does Hinduism have any prophecy from thousands of years BC of a king/figure coming to the world and being fulfilled?
Christ Jesus is the only one who is uniquely identified within scriptures and preserved miraculously and fulfilled. There is no alternative viable religion to follow.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Some extracts from Baha'is Sacred Writing on regard to the importance of science and reason.
Whatever our interpretations of Scripture, if something is clearly not compatible with science and reason, we should really question ourselves if it our interpretation is correct.

"If religion does not agree with science, it is superstition and ignorance; for God has endowed man with reason in order that he may perceive reality. The foundations of religion are reasonable. God has created us with intelligence to perceive them. If they are opposed to science and reason, how could they be believed and followed?"


"It is impossible for religion to be contrary to science, even though some intellects are too weak or too immature to understand truth.

God made religion and science to be the measure, as it were, of our understanding. Take heed that you neglect not such a wonderful power. Weigh all things in this balance.

To him who has the power of comprehension religion is like an open book, but how can it be possible for a man devoid of reason and intellectuality to understand the Divine Realities of God?

Put all your beliefs into harmony with science; there can be no opposition, for truth is one. When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles—and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God."

 

[mikesw]

Some extracts from Baha'is Sacred Writing on regard to the importance of science and reason.
Whatever our interpretations of Scripture, if something is clearly not compatible with science and reason, we should really question ourselves if it our interpretation is correct.

"If religion does not agree with science, it is superstition and ignorance; for God has endowed man with reason in order that he may perceive reality. The foundations of religion are reasonable. God has created us with intelligence to perceive them. If they are opposed to science and reason, how could they be believed and followed?"


"It is impossible for religion to be contrary to science, even though some intellects are too weak or too immature to understand truth.

God made religion and science to be the measure, as it were, of our understanding. Take heed that you neglect not such a wonderful power. Weigh all things in this balance.

To him who has the power of comprehension religion is like an open book, but how can it be possible for a man devoid of reason and intellectuality to understand the Divine Realities of God?

Put all your beliefs into harmony with science; there can be no opposition, for truth is one. When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles—and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God."

That would mean that the ignorance of science would become a limitation on what God could do. That is putting man as the judge over God's wisdom and ability. This is a great example of the folly of mankind.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here a bit more about the subject, from writings we consider inspired by God.


Scientific knowledge is the highest attainment upon the human plane,
for science is the discoverer of realities.
Science is of two kinds: material and spiritual.
Material science is the investigation of natural phenomena;
divine science is the discovery and realization of spiritual verities.
The world of humanity must acquire both.
A bird has two wings; it cannot fly with one.
Material and spiritual science are the two wings of human uplift and attainment.
Both are necessary—one the natural, the other supernatural; one material, the other divine.

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 195–196)

 

[mikesw]

In reality, the only way we know God is through God's revelation of himself through scripture. The only trustworthy scripture is that which came through and was preserved by the Israel people, despite its testimony of all their failings. The scriptures were fulfilled in Christ, which also brought us the New Testament testimony of who he is. All other religions fail. They most often fail in continuity of scriptures and testimony of God. They also may fail for having inconsistent identification of whatever god they describe, even though they may have ancients texts. Buddhism then is not a claim to know God but rather is sort of a philosophy of life and metaphysics with no basis for acceptance of the metaphysical concepts. Thus, no sources except the Bible help people navigate the dangers of the spiritual realm such that we can come and know the true God -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I am writing this post in response to the post of our brother @Johann made in another thread.
He wrote:

O my God, O Forgiver of sins and Dispeller of afflictions!
O Thou Who art the Pardoner, the Merciful!
I raise my suppliant hands to Thee,
tearfully beseeching the court of Thy divine Essence to forgive,
through Thy grace and clemency,
Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto the seat of truth.
Cause her, O Lord, to be overshadowed by the clouds of Thy bounty and favor,
immerse her in the ocean of Thy forgiveness and pardon,
and enable her to enter that sanctified abode, Thy heavenly Paradise.
Thou art, verily, the Mighty, the Compassionate, the Generous, the Merciful.



Why the Qur'an is cited in Baha'i Writings:

Respect for all Revealed Scriptures:

The Baha'i Faith holds that all the great religions of the world, including Islam, are part of a progressive revelation. According to Baha'i teachings, each Manifestation of God (like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah) brings guidance suited to the time and place, but all share the same underlying truth.

Therefore, Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, often quotes from the Qur'an as well as from other scriptures to affirm the continuity of divine revelation.
Specific References to the Qur'an:

Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently refers to verses from the Qur'an to highlight key spiritual truths or to show how His own revelation fulfills the promises and prophecies found in earlier scriptures, including the Qur'an.

For example, He often refers to the idea of the return of the Mahdi (the guided one in Islamic belief) and the Second Coming of Christ, which are themes deeply rooted in the Qur'an, and He claims that His own advent fulfills these prophecies.
Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an:

Baha'u'llah specifically addressed the Qur'an in a number of His works, including "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Hidden Words". He acknowledged the Qur'an's spiritual authority and, in many cases, used Qur'anic verses to explain or elaborate on His own teachings.

For instance, the Qur'anic concept of the "Seal of the Prophets" (the belief that Muhammad is the final prophet in Islam) is interpreted in the Baha'i Faith as referring to the completion of the Islamic cycle, which is then followed by the advent of the next Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah.
Examples of Qur'anic Citations in Baha'i Writings:
The Qur'anic Prophecy of the Return of the Mahdi:

Baha'u'llah claims to fulfill the Qur'anic prophecy of the Mahdi (the guided one), who is expected to return to lead the faithful in the end times. Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently references verses from the Qur'an that speak of the coming of a new Messenger in the future.
Qur'anic References to "The Paraclete" or "Spirit of Truth":

Baha'is interpret the Qur'anic verse (and the corresponding Christian passage) about the coming of the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16:13 and Qur'an 61:6) as a prophecy of Baha'u'llah. He is considered the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus in the Gospels and referenced in the Qur'an.
The Qur'anic Concept of God's Unity (Tawhid):

The concept of Tawhid (the oneness of God) is central to the Qur'an and is also a foundational belief in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah reiterates this doctrine in His writings, emphasizing the unity of God and the unity of all His Messengers.
Specific Quotes from Baha'i Writings Referencing the Qur'an:
Baha'u'llah’s Explanation of Prophecy Fulfillment:

In "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" (the Most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith), Baha'u'llah refers to Islamic prophecies and Qur'anic verses, explaining that He is the fulfillment of the awaited Mahdi and the return of Christ.
Baha'u'llah on the "Spirit of Truth" (Paraclete):

“The Paraclete is none other than Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of Truth, whose advent was foretold by Jesus Christ.” (Baha'u'llah, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Book of Certitude")
References to Prophecies of the Future Prophet:

Baha'u'llah cites the Qur'anic verse Surah 61:6 (which refers to the coming of a prophet after Muhammad) and applies it to His own mission. This verse is seen by Baha'is as a prophecy of the coming of Baha'u'llah.

This correct?

J.

Yes, it is correct, Johann.

 

[synergy]

Yes, it is correct, Johann.

Ok. @Pancho Frijoles . Let's go step by step through Baha'u'llah's claims:

Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently refers to verses from the Qur'an to highlight key spiritual truths or to show how His own revelation fulfills the promises and prophecies found in earlier scriptures, including the Qur'an.

For example, He often refers to the idea of the return of the Mahdi (the guided one in Islamic belief) and the Second Coming of Christ, which are themes deeply rooted in the Qur'an, and He claims that His own advent fulfills these prophecies.
Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an:

This is sheer blasphemy from Baha'u'llah, considering himself being the second coming of Christ. Totally unacceptable.

Baha'is interpret the Qur'anic verse (and the corresponding Christian passage) about the coming of the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16:13 and Qur'an 61:6) as a prophecy of Baha'u'llah. He is considered the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus in the Gospels and referenced in the Qur'an.
The Qur'anic Concept of God's Unity (Tawhid):

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. It's not enough that he considers himself Christ, but the Holy Spirit also!?!?

“The Paraclete is none other than Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of Truth, whose advent was foretold by Jesus Christ.” (Baha'u'llah, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Book of Certitude")
References to Prophecies of the Future Prophet:

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. This is totally inexcusable.

@Pancho Frijoles : What have you to say about all these blasphemous statements from Baha'u'llah? This needs to be addressed. We will not let up on this.

 

[mikesw]

Ok. @Pancho Frijoles . Let's go step by step through Baha'u'llah's claims:

This is sheer blasphemy from Baha'u'llah, considering himself being the second coming of Christ. Totally unacceptable.

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. It's not enough that he considers himself Christ, but the Holy Spirit also!?!?

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. This is totally inexcusable.

@Pancho Frijoles : What have you to say about all these blasphemous statements from Baha'u'llah? This needs to be addressed. We will not let up on this.

Wouldn't that create a trinity itself despite Pancho Fijoles' rejection of the trinity? The thing quite worse than following a false god is when one claims to be one. That is a bit rare but was one problem that brought judgment on Rome.
Is there anything this Baha'u'llah did made people seem him as worthy of such exaltation? Anyone could make promises of unity and world peace but the first problem is that no mere man will bring that forth and the second is that a man can promise anything and fail to bring it about. Just having a "vision" for such lofty goals is not anything more than many men have done before.

 

[synergy]

Wouldn't that create a trinity itself despite Pancho Fijoles' rejection of the trinity? The thing quite worse than following a false god is when one claims to be one. That is a bit rare but was one problem that brought judgment on Rome.
Is there anything this Baha'u'llah did made people seem him as worthy of such exaltation? Anyone could make promises of unity and world peace but the first problem is that no mere man will bring that forth and the second is that a man can promise anything and fail to bring it about. Just having a "vision" for such lofty goals is not anything more than many men have done before.

Baha'u'llah was able to convince the locals because many were ignorant of Christianity. Try doing the same in Europe or North America and he would have been locked up in the looney bin.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Baha'u'llah was able to convince the locals because many were ignorant of Christianity. Try doing the same in Europe or North America and he would have been locked up in the looney bin.

He was locked up.
Yes, tortured, exiled, poisoned, and imprisoned until his death.
What is blasphemous for some, is true for others, like me.
For some, Jesus was blasphemous. For me, He spoke the truth.
For some, Paul was crazy. For me, he was inspired.
But all this requires faith.

In the same way that Elijah came thorough the mission of John The Baptist (not as incarnation, but metaphorically, through his mission), we believe that Jesus returned “in the glory of The Father” [Bahá’u’lláh in Arabic] as He had promised…. But all this requires faith.

Bahá’u’lláh did not claim to be literally Yeshua of Nazareth, nor the Holy Spirit. He was rather embedded by the spirit of Christ, the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.

 

[mikesw]

He was tortured, exiled, and locked up until his death.
What is blasphemous for some, is true for others, like me.
For some, Jesus was blasphemous for claiming to be The Son of God. For others, his claim was true.
For some, Paul was crazy. For others, he spoke the truth.

In the same way that Elijah came thorough the mission of John The Baptist (not as incarnation, but metaphorically, through his mission), Jesus came “in the glory of The Father” [Bahá’u’lláh in Arabic] as He had promised. He came as a lightening that appears on the East. He came to be seen by all peoples on earth, even those who opposed Christ. He came with the evident miracle of a radical change in human civilization, as has never seen before. People are being resurrected (metaphorically) and God’s Kingdom is filling the earth.

Bahá’u’lláh did not claim to be literally Yeshua of Nazareth, nor the Holy Spirit. He is embedded by the spirit of Christ, the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.
Literalists do not make sense of his words as they don’t make sense of most of the words of Jesus.
We, baha’is, are not literalists.

Indeed you make blasphemy a central concept. Torturing and exile are not claims of divine significance.
That which is blasphemous to God is blasphemous of anyone who speaks falsehoods about God. Jesus spoke the truth and died and was resurrected. There are no other who have done this.

Indeed as non-literalists you can disregard any or all of scripture. There however are things you better accept. If you take what is true and make it just symbolic or assign other meaning, you receive the consequence. There is nothing as proven as Christ as the only Messiah here for the salvation of the world. All others are thieves trying to steal his glory.
Please re-post so Pancho can see this too.