The Atonement, the Gospel and PSA

[civic]

Why do the PSA advocates equate salvation with that theory only disregarding all the other atonement theories before that one which is the Johnny come lately to the scene ?

That would mean no one was saved until the invention of PSA which happened during the reformation period.

And if I can be so bold ( which I will be ) they are preaching/teaching another gospel, another jesus. Jesus never taught PSA or hinted at it and I started a thread on that very topic. And Paul completely left out wrath in the gospel which He said He received directly from Christ and said by this gospel you are saved below.

1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

So here is the gospel as outlined by Paul which saves that one must believe.

1- Christ died for our sin
2-Christ was buried
3- Christ was raised from the dead on the 3rd day
4-Christ appeared to many individual people and groups over 40 days
5- Christ appeared to Paul years after His Ascension last of all

Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters[a] with me,

To the churches in Galatia:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel​

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.


conclusion: don't let anyone persuade you of any other gospel than the one Paul said saves you in 1 Corinthians 15. And this includes adding anything on top of the plain and simple meaning that Jesus died for our sins. It also included those who would try and tell you Jesus is no longer a man, that He did not raise from the dead bodily. That is another jesus that Paul condemns in Galatians 1. Paul spent the entire 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians explaining the bodily Resurrection of Jesus which is also our hope.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Diserner]

Jesus did indeed teach PSA.

P for PENAL

He taught sin was as a penal system derived from a divine Law, with punishment and moral debt:

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

S for SUBSTITUTIONARY:

Jesus taught that he was to be substituted in place of the sinners of the world:

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mk. 10:45 NKJ)

A for ATONEMENT

Christ taught that only he could pay the debt and price of sin for sinners in their place.

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:27-28 NKJ)


The Church fathers did indeed teach PSA.

Just as they didn't necessarily use the word "Trinity" they taught the Biblical concepts it represents.

Eusebius argues:

“In this he shows that Christ, being apart from all sin, will receive the sins of men on himself. And therefore he will suffer the penalty of sinners, and will be pained on their behalf; and not on his own” (Proof of the Gospel, 3.2).

Macrina the Younger wrote:​

You redeemed us from the curse and from sin, having become both on our behalf.

The Epistle to Diognetus writes:​

In his mercy he took upon himself our sins; he himself gave up his own Son as a ransom for us, the holy one for the lawless, the guiltless for the guilty, the just for the unjust, the incorruptible for the corruptible, the immortal for the mortal. For what else but his righteousness could have covered our sins? In whom was it possible for us, the lawless and ungodly, to be justified, except in the Son of God alone? O the sweet exchange, O the incomprehensible work of God, O the unexpected blessings, that the sinfulness of many should be hidden in one righteous person, while the righteousness of one should justify many sinners! (Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2–5).

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/penal-substitution-early-church/

 

[civic]

Expositor's Greek Testament
Galatians 1:6-9. THE APOSTLE EXPRESSES SURPRISE AT THE SUDDEN DEFECTION OF HIS CONVERTS FROM THE ONLY TRUE GOSPEL, AND PRONOUNCES ANATHEMAS ON ALL PERVERTERS OF THE TRUTH.—Paul is evidently startled at the tidings of a sudden revolution in Galatian feeling. His intense indignation is evinced by the vehemence of his language and the solemnity of his anathema. There could be but one true Gospel; this new doctrine was no Gospel at all, but only a heretical perversion of the truth by foreign agitators.

 

[civic]

Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how our sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.

There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.

Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom. Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)

Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many

hope this helps !!!

 

[Taylor]

The doctrine of penal substitution states that God gave himself in the person of his Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.

The PSA view of the cross of Christ stands at the very heart of the gospel.

That the Lord Jesus Christ died for us—a shameful death, bearing our curse, enduring our pain, suffering the wrath of his own Father in our place—has been what Christians have believed in for centuries.

 

[civic]

The Gospel is the good news which is the power of God that brings forth salvation to everyone who believes.

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Jesus taught more on the Kingdom of God( the gospel ) than any other topic or doctrine.

Jesus mentions the Kingdom over 100 times in the gospels. It is the most important thing Jesus taught during His earthly ministry. Here are just a few passages on the kingdom from the 4 gospels. The kingdom is like a multi-faceted diamond and the gospel is the core-center of that diamond. There are many facets to the kingdom but there is only one gospel that saves.

Mark 1:14-15
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Luke 17:21
Nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 18:36
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Romans 14:17 Paul declared that the kingdom of God is a matter “of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”

1-The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom !

2-Jesus declared that His kingdom was not of this world in John 18:36,

3-Jesus preached that repentance is necessary to be a part of the kingdom of God in Matthew 4:17

4-Jesus said to Nicodemus that the kingdom of God can be equated with salvation in John 3:5–7, where Jesus says the kingdom of God must be entered into by being born again in John 3:3- Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior

And there is only One Gospel

Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So since there is only One God, One Savior, One way to God through Christ, One faith, One baptism and One Gospel- there is only one way to be saved.

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom- the gospel

1 Corinthians 1:10-31
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

What is the Gospel you ask ?

Paul defines that Gospel by which we are saved below:

1 Corinthians 15:1-19
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Only One way to be saved, by One Person, One Gospel and One Faith. In Him alone. Scripture is really very exclusive here but inclusive to all that come to Him freely!

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples and last of all to Paul as he declared in 1 Cor 15, Galatians and in Acts.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

The doctrine of penal substitution states that God gave himself in the person of his Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.

The PSA view of the cross of Christ stands at the very heart of the gospel.

That the Lord Jesus Christ died for us—a shameful death, bearing our curse, enduring our pain, suffering the wrath of his own Father in our place—has been what Christians have believed in for centuries.

Everything above is true except the wrath from Father to Son. The wrath came from man as taught by Jesus and the Apostles. Wrath means anger, vengeance, retribution etc........

Now all you have to do is find a verse in the NT where the Apostles of Jesus say the Father was angry with the Son at the cross and put Him to death.

Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

 

[civic]

I quoted Romans 10:9-15 below where Paul talks about the gospel- it deals with both the mind and the heart with believing and confessing Jesus is Lord and the Resurrection ( the heart of the gospel ). The Apostles in Acts preached the Risen Lord in every account where the gospel was being proclaimed. Its the main theme in 1 Corinthians 15 where the gospel is defined and Paul spends the entire chapter explaining the Resurrection body.

Romans 10:9-15
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! ( the gospel )

 

[Taylor]

I have heard people argue against PSA Calling it Cosmic child abuse.
In one sense, it is no surprise that the Bible’s teaching should be criticized in this way, for foundational truths of the Christian faith always come under attack from time to time—witness the debates that have raged in the past over the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and so on.

But I must admit @civic that you're one of the People on these forums that seems to know what they're talking about consistently. So I'm going to come at this with an open mind. I realize one must be careful and be aware of Paul's warning...that ‘the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear’. 2 Tim. 4:3

I have noticed that some of the more recent critics of penal substitution claim to be committed to the authority of Scripture which is a good thing. So this should definitely be an interesting thread.

 

[civic]

I have heard people argue against PSA Calling it Cosmic child abuse.
In one sense, it is no surprise that the Bible’s teaching should be criticized in this way, for foundational truths of the Christian faith always come under attack from time to time—witness the debates that have raged in the past over the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and so on.

But I must admit @civic that you're one of the People on these forums that seems to know what they're talking about consistently. So I'm going to come at this with an open mind. I realize one must be careful and be aware of Paul's warning...that ‘the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear’. 2 Tim. 4:3

I have noticed that some of the more recent critics of penal substitution claim to be committed to the authority of Scripture which is a good thing. So this should definitely be an interesting thread.

I started a new thread below talking about the history behind PSA. If you have an open mind take a look and see how it was developed from a historical perspective. And I appreciate that you are not closed minded.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/psa-and-anselms-connection.630/#post-16146

 

[Khazar]

Whenever I see the topic of PSA being discussed I always think of this verse from Isaiah. Especially verse 6.


He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. (Isa. 53:3–6)

Through faith in who Jesus is and what he has done we are delivered from condemnation, it can be only because he himself endured that condemnation in our place. Indeed, a rejection of Jesus means that “the wrath of God remains” on the individual sinner. Simply put, either Jesus bears the wrath of God in our place or we bear it ourself.

 

[Taylor]

I started a new thread below talking about the history behind PSA. If you have an open mind take a look and see how it was developed from a historical perspective. And I appreciate that you are not closed minded.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/psa-and-anselms-connection.630/#post-16146

I'll head over there right now.

 

[Aeliana]

PSA teaches that God punishes his innocent Son for sins he did not even commit. This shows a breakdown in the inner-Trinitarian fellowship of God and presents God as a monster who promotes violence as the answer to problems.

The chief answer to this criticism is the doctrine of the Trinity itself, for the atonement is not presented as a violent act afflicted by the Father against theSon, but rather a saving work planned and achieved by the Father and Son working together for our salvation .

John6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.”

Gal. 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

The truth of the unity of the Trinity shows that, God the Father suffered the cross together with his Son. The cross was, in fact, the farthest thing from “cosmic child-abuse,” since no abused child rejoices to suffer his father’s wrath. Jesus rejoiced in doing the will of his father. In the case of the cross we see his delight in delivering his people from the penalty of their sins.

Matt. 1:21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Heb. 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

His prayer was “father forgive them for they know not what they do.” It was the Jewish leaders that delivered up Jesus as the result of an illegal and false trial to the Romans.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus did indeed teach PSA.

P for PENAL

He taught sin was as a penal system derived from a divine Law, with punishment and moral debt:

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

S for SUBSTITUTIONARY:

Jesus taught that he was to be substituted in place of the sinners of the world:

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Mk. 10:45 NKJ)

A for ATONEMENT

Christ taught that only he could pay the debt and price of sin for sinners in their place.

27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:27-28 NKJ)


The Church fathers did indeed teach PSA.

Just as they didn't necessarily use the word "Trinity" they taught the Biblical concepts it represents.

Eusebius argues:

“In this he shows that Christ, being apart from all sin, will receive the sins of men on himself. And therefore he will suffer the penalty of sinners, and will be pained on their behalf; and not on his own” (Proof of the Gospel, 3.2).

Macrina the Younger wrote:​

You redeemed us from the curse and from sin, having become both on our behalf.

The Epistle to Diognetus writes:​

In his mercy he took upon himself our sins; he himself gave up his own Son as a ransom for us, the holy one for the lawless, the guiltless for the guilty, the just for the unjust, the incorruptible for the corruptible, the immortal for the mortal. For what else but his righteousness could have covered our sins? In whom was it possible for us, the lawless and ungodly, to be justified, except in the Son of God alone? O the sweet exchange, O the incomprehensible work of God, O the unexpected blessings, that the sinfulness of many should be hidden in one righteous person, while the righteousness of one should justify many sinners! (Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2–5).

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/penal-substitution-early-church/

PSA, in the Reformed perspective, states that Christ only died for the Elect. Therefore it is a limited atonement, and the sins upon him were only those of the Elect. He literally took the place instead of them, dying instead of them, punished instead of them.

Arminian thought, however, aligns more with the quotes you cite above, wherein Christ dies on “behalf” of sinners, not in place of. Moreover, his death was on behalf of all mankind, meaning each individual’s sins was atoned for. (1 John 2:1-2)

Doug

 

[civic]

PSA, in the Reformed perspective, states that Christ only died for the Elect. Therefore it is a limited atonement, and the sins upon him were only those of the Elect. He literally took the place instead of them, dying instead of them, punished instead of them.

Arminian thought, however, aligns more with the quotes you cite above, wherein Christ dies on “behalf” of sinners, not in place of. Moreover, his death was on behalf of all mankind, meaning each individual’s sins was atoned for. (1 John 2:1-2)

Doug

Amen !

 

[Diserner]

PSA, in the Reformed perspective, states that Christ only died for the Elect. Therefore it is a limited atonement, and the sins upon him were only those of the Elect. He literally took the place instead of them, dying instead of them, punished instead of them.

Arminian thought, however, aligns more with the quotes you cite above, wherein Christ dies on “behalf” of sinners, not in place of. Moreover, his death was on behalf of all mankind, meaning each individual’s sins was atoned for. (1 John 2:1-2)

Doug

You haven't got the right distinction here.

Both frameworks are "literally in the place of."

One is conditional and offered to all, the other is not.

 

[TibiasDad]

You haven't got the right distinction here.

Both frameworks are "literally in the place of."

One is conditional and offered to all, the other is not.

In my mind, if it’s literally in the place of, then a) you have double jeopardy in the case of those who don’t believe, and/or b) you have universalism.

To have it be for the sake of all and to avoid universalism it must be an “on behalf of”, not “in place of”.

But hey, I’ve been known to be wrong, just ask my wife.

 

[Diserner]

In my mind, if it’s literally in the place of, then a) you have double jeopardy in the case of those who don’t believe, and/or b) you have universalism.

This is just a Calvinist canard you have bought in to.

They are very forceful about this false dilemma.

To have it be for the sake of all and to avoid universalism it must be an “on behalf of”, not “in place of”.

Non sequitur.

Logically, there is such a thing as a provisional payment.

But hey, I’ve been known to be wrong, just ask my wife.

Send me her phone number and I will.

 

[TibiasDad]

This is just a Calvinist canard you have bought in to.

They are very forceful about this false dile

PSA is essentially a Calvinistic construct. So to talk about it, one need assume the Calvinistic argument. I am not arguing for it, it is just what it is.

Christ died on our behalf, not literally in my place, as a mediator perfectly speaking for the needs of both humanity and Divine Holiness, and the benefits of that sacrifice is provisionally available to all, the provision being faith. Thus, all who believe have the benefit of their sins being forgiven by God through Christ’s death.

PSA demands the literal substitution of Christ in place of the Elect, a specific and exclusive selection of humanity. Christ died for them specifically alone, not on behalf of the whole race equally. As it stands now, PSA was developed first by Luther, and then more fully by Calvin and those who followed in his footsteps. It was not espoused by the ECF, and thus, weakens the credibility of the contention that the biblical writers were teaching the ideas established in PSA.


Doug

 

[Diserner]

PSA is essentially a Calvinistic construct.

No.

It's not.

It was around long before Calvin and Augustine, even if you exclude Scriptures.

There is no distinctive Calvinistic doctrine necessary to believe PSA.

There are more non-Calvinists who believe in PSA than Calvinists.

You've bought into a lie.

So to talk about it, one need assume the Calvinistic argument. I am not arguing for it, it is just what it is.

Bad assertions a conclusive argument do not make.

Christ died on our behalf, not literally in my place, as a mediator perfectly speaking for the needs of both humanity and Divine Holiness, and the benefits of that sacrifice is provisionally available to all, the provision being faith. Thus, all who believe have the benefit of their sins being forgiven by God through Christ’s death.

You will notice even (most) Calvinists admit they were born children of wrath.

The atonement always has, and always will be, in two stages, and that has NOTHING logically to do whether we can say it in place of or on behalf of.

The atonement was procured IN CHRIST ALONE, thus to avail its benefits one must be joined to CHRIST.

He died BOTH in place of and on behalf of me.

Calvinists can take their snake oil back to the cheap salesmen they got it from.

It was not espoused by the ECF, and thus, weakens the credibility of the contention that the biblical writers were teaching the ideas established in PSA.

False.

You're just repeating things you been told, that you've heard.

You didn't research and search out every ECF to see everything they said, or you couldn't just regurgitate this line.

People can "interpret" a certain word or phrase to already favor their view, and that is not proof either way.

Please watch Mike Winger's series for a few examples.