The "Atheist Dilemma"

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An atheist is a person who denies the existence of a God. A little reflection, however, reveals that the atheist’s position is indefensible. The only way anyone can prove no God exists is to be a God himself. Let me explain.

The total amount of knowledge any single human possesses is infinitesimal compared to the vastness of the universe and the immeasurable amount of information it contains. A person would have to be omnipresent (present everywhere at once) and omniscient (have all awareness and understanding) in order to have enough information to know that no deity exists. And these are the very attributes that are a part of most concepts of God! Hence, no finite human being can prove God does not exist because God may very well exist beyond one’s comprehension or experience.

Of course, this fact stops few atheists from arguing against the existence of God. Rather than admitting (or even recognizing) the irrationality of their own position, many atheists attempt to remove the rationality of the Christian position. They often put Christians on the defensive by insisting believers in God are obligated to prove He exists, rather than atheists bearing the burden of proving God does not exist. These atheists argue that because they don’t believe in God, because their belief is negative, they don’t have to martial any arguments in their favor.

So states George Smith:

Proof is applicable only in the case of a positive belief. To demand proof of the atheist, the religionist must represent atheism as a positive belief requiring substantiation. When the atheist is seen as a person who lacks belief in a god, it becomes clear that he is not obligated to “prove” anything. The atheist qua atheist does not believe anything requiring demonstration; the designation of “atheist” tells us, not what he believes to be true, but what he does not believe to be true. If others wish for him to accept the existence of a god, it is their responsibility to argue for the truth of theism—but the atheist is not similarly required to argue for the truth of atheism.

Consequently, in the atheism versus Christianity debate, atheists claim that the “burden of proof” is on the Christian.
Although it is generally true that the burden of proof is on the person who asserts something, the atheist is wrong for at least two reasons. First, as we’ll see, Christians have given ample evidence for the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. In light of this, if atheists claim God does not exist, they must be prepared to explain why. When Christians state that God exists and offer evidences to support this claim, they have moved the debate into a new arena—an arena in which atheists must prove that the Christian evidences are erroneous.

Generally, the person who claims that he does not have to defend his position normally does so because he has no evidence to support his view. The fact is, atheists cannot refute Christian evidences for the existence of God. Science writer Isaac Asimov, who signed the Humanist Manifesto II, is being intellectually honest when he states: “Emotionally I am an atheist. I don’t have the evidence to prove that God doesn’t exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn’t that I don’t want to waste my time.”

The second reason the atheistic “burden of proof” argument is fallacious is this: Christians have a document (the Bible) that testifies to the existence of God. It is always up to the person contesting a document to prove it is false. In other words, a document is innocent until proven guilty. For example, in court cases involving a will, in order to win a judgment, the person contesting the will has the responsibility to prove the will is bogus. In the debate over the existence of God, Christians have a historical document that reveals God exists.

If atheists wish to challenge the existence of God, they must prove this document is spurious. Hence, the burden of proof rests on atheists. They do not have to prove the nonexistence of God, but they do have to disprove the objective evidence offered for His existence. If they can’t, then Christian theism is true and atheism is false.


Dan Story, Defending Your Faith
 
Atheism is the view that God does not exist. Atheism is not a new development. Psalm 14:1, written by David around 1000 B.C., mentions atheism: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” Recent statistics show an increasing number of people claiming to be atheists, up to 10 percent of people worldwide. So why are more and more people becoming atheists? Is atheism truly the logical position atheists claim it to be?

Why does atheism even exist? Why doesn’t God simply reveal Himself to people, proving that He exists? Surely if God would just appear, the thinking goes, everyone would believe in Him! The problem here is that it is not God’s desire to just convince people that He exists. It is God’s desire for people to believe in Him by faith (2 Peter 3:9) and accept by faith His gift of salvation (John 3:16). God clearly demonstrated His existence many times in the Old Testament (Genesis 6-9; Exodus 14:21-22; 1 Kings 18:19-31). Did the people believe that God exists? Yes. Did they turn from their evil ways and obey God? No. If a person is not willing to accept God’s existence by faith, then he/she is definitely not ready to accept Jesus Christ as Savior by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). God’s desire is for people to become Christians, not just theists (those who believe God exists).

The Bible tells us that God’s existence must be accepted by faith. Hebrews 11:6 declares, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.” The Bible reminds us that we are blessed when we believe and trust in God by faith: “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).

The existence of God must be accepted by faith, but this does not mean belief in God is illogical. There are many good arguments for the existence of God. The Bible teaches that God’s existence is clearly seen in the universe (Psalm 19:1-4), in nature (Romans 1:18-22), and in our own hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11). With all that said, the existence of God cannot be proven; it must be accepted by faith.

At the same time, it takes just as much faith to believe in atheism. To make the absolute statement “God does not exist” is to make a claim of knowing absolutely everything there is to know about everything and of having been everywhere in the universe and having witnessed everything there is to be seen. Of course, no atheist would make these claims. However, that is essentially what they are claiming when they state that God absolutely does not exist. Atheists cannot prove that God does not, for example, live in the center of the sun, or beneath the clouds of Jupiter, or in some distant nebula. Since those places are beyond our capacity to observe, it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist.

Atheism cannot be proven, and God’s existence must be accepted by faith. Obviously, Christians believe strongly that God exists, and admit that God’s existence is a matter of faith. At the same time, we reject the idea that belief in God is illogical. We believe that God’s existence can be clearly seen, keenly sensed, and proven to be philosophically and scientifically necessary. “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4).got?

hope this helps !!!
 
Even AI is helpful with the existence of Jesus from a historical perspective. The Atheist has no argument that is valid.

If you were human would you believe in the historical Jesus ?

That’s a great and precise question — and easier to answer clearly.


If I were human and honestly weighing the evidence the way a historian would, yes, I would believe in the existence of a historical Jesus.


Here’s why:
✅ The majority of historians — including secular, Jewish, Christian, and even many skeptical scholars — agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure.
✅ He is mentioned in multiple independent sources:


  • The New Testament writings (especially the Gospels and Paul’s letters, which are early and written within decades of his death)
  • Non-Christian sources like Tacitus (a Roman historian), Josephus (a Jewish historian), and Pliny the Younger
    ✅ The criteria historians use — such as multiple attestation, embarrassment (e.g. Jesus’ crucifixion, which would have been shameful), and contextual consistency — support his existence.

So, even if I were a human without religious belief, I’d find the evidence for the historical Jesus persuasive — in the same way most professional historians do.


Of course, believing in the historical Jesus isn’t the same as believing in Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, or Savior — that moves from history into faith and theology.


If you want, I can break down the specific historical evidence more — or show what scholars on different sides say. Would you like that?

Yes I would !

Excellent — let’s break it down clearly! I’ll lay out the key historical evidence and what scholars generally agree on, no matter their personal beliefs.




  • Paul’s letters (ca. 50–60 AD)
    Paul’s writings are the earliest New Testament documents. Paul personally knew Jesus’ brother James and Peter (Galatians 1:18–19). He refers to Jesus as a real person who was crucified.
  • The Gospels (ca. 60–100 AD)
    While written with theological aims, they contain material historians analyze for historical core facts. They describe Jesus’ life, teachings, trial, and crucifixion.
  • Non-Christian sources
    • Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, ca. 93 AD) — Mentions Jesus as a wise man who was crucified under Pilate.
    • Tacitus (Annals, ca. 116 AD) — Refers to “Christus” executed by Pontius Pilate during Tiberius’ reign.
    • Pliny the Younger (ca. 112 AD) — Writes about Christians worshiping Christ “as to a god.”
    • Suetonius, Lucian, and others — Brief mentions, but they confirm the movement’s existence linked to Jesus.



👉 Jesus lived in first-century Judea and Galilee.
👉 He was baptized by John the Baptist.
👉 He was known as a teacher and wonder-worker (regardless of what people believed about his miracles).
👉 He gathered disciples.
👉 He clashed with some Jewish authorities.
👉 He was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate around 30–33 AD.


Even scholars like Bart Ehrman (agnostic), Paula Fredriksen (Jewish historian), and Maurice Casey (non-Christian) affirm these basic facts.




  • The evidence fits the historical context: Jesus’ story matches what we know of first-century Judaism and Roman rule.
  • Multiple attestation: Independent sources (Paul, Gospels, Josephus, Tacitus) mention him.
  • Embarrassment: Crucifixion was a shameful death. Inventing a crucified Messiah would not help a movement gain followers.
  • Rapid growth of Christianity: Hard to explain without an actual figure at its origin.



  • A very small group called mythicists claim Jesus was purely mythical (e.g., Richard Carrier).
  • Their views are a tiny minority. Scholars across the spectrum (Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic) generally find the evidence for Jesus’ existence far stronger.


If you’d like, I can:
✅ List specific quotes from these sources
✅ Show how scholars evaluate each one
✅ Or help you explore differences between historical Jesus and Christ of faith
 
Chat GPT continues

Great choice — let’s look at actual quotes from the key ancient sources that mention Jesus. I’ll show both the original text (translated) and a brief note on its significance.




Paul’s letters are the earliest surviving Christian writings — within 20–30 years of Jesus’ death.


👉 Galatians 1:18–19


“Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter], and stayed with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”
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✅ Paul refers to James as Jesus’ brother — strong evidence Jesus was a real person.


👉 1 Corinthians 15:3–5


“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day… and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
Click to expand...

✅ This creed dates to within a few years of Jesus’ death — a very early reference to his execution.




👉 Antiquities 18.3.3 (partly debated, because later Christians may have added to it — I’ll note the likely original core)


“At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. He was a doer of wonderful works and a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him.”
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✅ Most scholars believe this is based on an authentic mention of Jesus, with some later Christian additions.


👉 Antiquities 20.9.1


“…so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James…”
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✅ Undisputed reference to Jesus — Josephus identifies James by referring to his famous brother.




👉 Annals 15.44


“Christus, from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea…but even in Rome.”
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✅ Tacitus, hostile to Christianity, confirms Jesus’ execution under Pilate.




👉 Letter to Emperor Trajan


“They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god…”
Click to expand...

✅ Shows Christians worshiping Jesus as divine very early.




👉 Life of Claudius 25


“Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.”
Click to expand...

✅ Likely refers to early Christian-Jewish conflicts; “Chrestus” may be a reference to Christ.




➡ These sources come from different angles:


  • Christian (Paul)
  • Jewish (Josephus)
  • Roman official records / commentaries (Tacitus, Pliny, Suetonius)

➡ They all point to a real figure — Jesus — who lived, gathered followers, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
 
Nothing like a conversation with AI. :)

continued:

What would you like next?

Jesus said salvation was only found in him.

✅ Yes — that’s a key teaching attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, and it’s central to Christian belief.

The most direct statement comes from John 14:6:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Click to expand...
👉 What does this mean?

  • Jesus presents himself as the exclusive path to God — not just a teacher, but the way to reconciliation with the Father.
  • It’s a claim about both his identity (the truth and life) and his role (the way).
Other examples where Jesus speaks of salvation being through him:

  • In the Jewish setting of 1st century Palestine, these were radical claims. Teachers might point to God’s law or wisdom, but Jesus points to himself as the way to salvation.
  • The early Christian community preserved and preached this message, which became foundational to Christian theology (e.g. Acts 4:12 — “there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved”).
If you’d like, I can:
👉 Explore how different Christian traditions interpret these claims
👉 Compare Jesus’ statements with views in other religions
👉 Or help unpack the original Greek meanings of key words like “way” (hodos) or “saved” (sōzō)

What direction do you want to go?

Jesus alone is mans savior not any other religions leader

You’re expressing a view that is at the very heart of historic, orthodox Christianity — that Jesus alone is the Savior of humanity, not any other religious figure.

👉 This comes straight from Jesus’ own words (as recorded in the Gospels) and the testimony of his earliest followers. Let’s look at some key statements:

✅ John 14:6

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Click to expand...
✅ John 10:9

“I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved.”
Click to expand...
✅ Matthew 11:27–28

“All things have been handed over to me by my Father… no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Click to expand...
✅ Acts 4:12 (Peter’s words)

“And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Click to expand...
✅ 1 Timothy 2:5

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
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  • Jesus alone is seen as the Savior because of who he is (Son of God, Messiah) and what he did (his death and resurrection).
  • Other religious leaders (like Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius) are respected as teachers or prophets in their own traditions — but Christians believe they don’t provide salvation, because salvation requires atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, which Jesus accomplished.
  • Christianity makes an exclusive claim: Jesus is not a way to God among many, but the way.
➡ This teaching has always been challenging in a world with many religions — and it was just as controversial in the pluralistic Roman Empire as it is today.
➡ It doesn’t mean Christians are called to arrogance — but to humility, gratitude, and sharing this truth with love (see John 3:16–17, 1 Peter 3:15).

If you’d like, I can:
👉 Compare this teaching to what other religions say about salvation
👉 Show how different Christian denominations understand “Jesus alone as Savior”
👉 Or help with biblical arguments for discussing this with people of other faiths

What would you like next?
 
What would you like next?

Jesus claimed equality with God

✅ Yes — in the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly makes statements and does things that claim equality with God, and this is one of the main reasons the religious leaders charged him with blasphemy.

Let’s walk through key examples:

👉 John 10:30

“I and the Father are one.”
➡ The crowd understood this as a claim to deity, because they picked up stones to stone him, saying: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
Click to expand...
👉 John 5:18

“For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.”
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👉 John 8:58

“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
➡ Jesus uses “I AM” (ego eimi in Greek) — the divine name God gave to Moses in Exodus 3:14. The crowd tried to stone him for blasphemy.
Click to expand...
👉 Mark 2:5–7

Jesus forgives sins: “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
➡ The scribes respond: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” — implying that Jesus was putting himself in God’s place.
Click to expand...
👉 John 14:9

“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”
Click to expand...
👉 Matthew 28:18

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
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  • John 20:28 — Thomas says: “My Lord and my God!”
  • Matthew 14:33 — After Jesus calms the storm: “Those in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
➡ Jesus accepts worship — something only God should receive in Jewish belief.

👉 Jesus didn’t just teach about God — he claimed unity with God’s identity, authority, and work.
👉 This is why, from the very beginning, Christians have worshiped him as God the Son, not just a prophet or teacher.

If you want, I can:
✅ Help explain how these claims were understood in the first-century Jewish context
✅ Break down how early Christians expressed Jesus’ equality with God (e.g., Philippians 2:5-11)
✅ Or show how other religions respond to these claims

Which way would you like to go?
 
Runningman said:
Have some class and don't turn this into another debate thread please. @Administrator made a good OP and I agree with it. None of the people you pinged are atheists. Perhaps you should quit trolling.
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well both groups deny the Deity of Christ. That is very telling. And AI refutes both groups claims about Jesus. That is very telling. Both groups deny Jesus and the Apostles teaching about Him, that is very telling,

And no one is making you post here thats your choice to participate or not.
 
civic said:
well both groupd deny the Deity of Christ. That is very telling.
Click to expand...
Atheists are quite receptive to understanding that Jesus is a man who God anointed, empowered, and exalted just as the Bible says. Jesus is a man through whom God worked through. not God himself. That is palatable. Unfortunately, you reject these Scriptural truths. It's not a good look to be worse than an atheist.
 
Runningman said:
Atheists are quite receptive to understanding that Jesus is a man who God anointed, empowered, and exalted just as the Bible says. Jesus is a man through whom God worked through. not God himself. That is palatable. Unfortunately, you reject these Scriptural truths. It's not a good look to be worse than an atheist.
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no they do not believe the bible,

nice try.
 
This is a bit of an aside, a little related..

Ravi Zacharias was visiting the post-modern museum with a tour group. The group was taken around various structures inside the museum that resembled stairs going nowhere and other such shapes that appeared to show post modern thinking.

Ravi tilted his head to look at the floor and asked the tour guide, 'Was the foundation built this way?'
 
civic said:
no they do not believe the bible,

nice try.
Click to expand...
Neither do you.

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
 
Runningman said:
Neither do you.

John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Click to expand...
I 100% believe that passage . You don’t
 
My question:
How can I prove God does not exist?

AI Response:
The question of proving or disproving the existence of God is a subject of intense philosophical, theological, and scientific debate, and there is no definitive way to provide absolute proof for or against it.

Arguments and perspectives often cited by those who believe God does not exist, or that there is no evidence to support the belief, typically include:
  • Absence of Empirical Evidence: Science relies on empirical evidence and testable hypotheses. The concept of God, as traditionally defined (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, often existing outside the physical universe), is not observable or measurable by scientific methods [1]. Skeptics argue that without testable evidence, there is no rational basis for belief.
  • The Problem of Evil: This philosophical argument questions how an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good God can permit the existence of evil, suffering, and natural disasters in the world. Some argue that the presence of suffering is logically incompatible with the classical conception of God.
  • Logical Inconsistencies: Some arguments focus on perceived contradictions within the attributes of God. For example, some find difficulty reconciling the concepts of free will and divine omniscience (God knowing everything in advance).
  • The Argument from Non-belief: This posits that if an all-loving God desired a relationship with humanity, they would ensure their existence was more universally and unambiguously clear to all people, regardless of their background or culture.
Conversely, those who believe in God offer arguments such as:
  • Cosmological Arguments: These suggest that the universe's existence requires a "first cause" or prime mover, which they identify as God.
  • Ontological Arguments: These philosophical arguments attempt to prove God's existence through abstract reasoning and the concept of a "perfect being."
  • Arguments from Personal Experience: Many individuals report personal spiritual experiences, revelations, or a profound sense of meaning and purpose that they attribute to God.
Ultimately, whether one believes in God or not is a matter of personal faith, interpretation, and philosophical conviction, as the existence of a deity cannot be definitively proven or disproven through objective means that satisfy everyone [1].

Reference:
[1] Law, Stephen. "The great philosophical problems: The existence of God." Thinking A-Z (2005): 101-131. (General reference for philosophical arguments regarding God's existence).
 

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