The abomination of desolation

[Joe]

You can keep quoting verses and keep claiming Jesus said so, but if you keep misapplying those verses to a false understanding of historical facts, it doesn't mean you are correct.

And I say back to you; that historical fact in correct application is there and you refuse to accept it. We will go nowhere with this type of bantering. So, please let's leave it out of the conversation and deal with the verses and their application.

There was no abomination of desolation in the temple in 70 AD. As I said before, Josephus records the temple was burnt down. Nothing was set up in the temple to desecrate it while it was still functioning.

No one said there was an object-idol setup. The Lord stated, "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". Luke interprets it, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

The abomination that desolates is the pagan Roman armies that stood in the land of Israel, even in the temple as the Romans destroyed it leaving no stone upon another as foretold by the Lord. The abomination that desolates was desolating the people, the city, and the temple.

And the Lord had already left the temple desolate. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Mat 23:37-39)

I hope you can understand now that it is the pagan Roman armies that stood in the holy place, being the abomination of desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel as the Lord foretold.

Once it was burnt, sacrifices ceased. You can not desecrate a non-functioning temple after it's already burnt and destroyed.
You totally ignored the actual predicted numbers that Zechariah includes in his prophecy of the last days. How do we know it's still to happen? Zech 13:4 "that day". Short hand the prophets use to describe the Day of the Lord. And like I said at no time have 2/3 of the Jewish people ever been decimated. Never happened.
During the 70 AD era, more Jews lived outside of Judah as the "exiles" than lived in their homeland. That's entirely why Jesus told his disciples to go to the 12 tribes to spread the Good News.
Even Mark 13:10 adds a detail of this timeline. [Mar 13:10 LSB] 10 "And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations.
Was the gospel proclaimed to all nations by 70 AD? Hardly.
And obviously, the sun hasn't darkened and moon darkened, and stars falling from the sky and Jesus has not come back in the clouds.
It's really hard to make the case that all of this has been fulfilled by 70 AD.

I understand the points you make.

Let us address your first assertion that the use of "that day" is short hand the prophets use to describe the Day of the Lord. I will make the assumption that you are stating the Day of the Lord is a time of His vengeance. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You used Zec 13:4 to make your assertion. “On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive".

I will use Zec 13:1 to prove "on that day" does not always mean vengeance. “On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness. (Zec 13:1)

Your understanding of Zechariah 13 is still future, but the prophecies with biblical accounts and historical facts do not support it as a future event.

“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who stands next to me,” declares the LORD of hosts. “Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones. In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’” (Zec 13:7-9)

When did this happen, "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered; I will turn my hand against the little ones."?

• And Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’ But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” (Mar 14:27-28)

What is meant by "In the whole land"?

• The whole land of Judah.

What does it mean "two thirds shall be cut off and perish"?

• Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Mat 23:32-36)
• “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written....What was written? Zechariah and Daniel to start. (Luk 21:20-22)

What does it mean "one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God."?

• And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah" (Rom 9:27-29)
• God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Rom 11:2-5)
• Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (1Pe 1:1-2)

The prophecy of Zechariah 13 speaks of the time when our Lord died for the sins of the world. The disciples scattered as prophesied, and the Lord meeting up with the scattered little ones to comfort them. And in the land of Judah two thirds would be cutoff from Him and perish for their gross sins (70AD), but God would reserve a third by His grace and refine them through the fire of trials "so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Now let us address your assertion about Mark 13:10

You stated, "Mark 13:10 adds a detail of this timeline. [Mar 13:10 LSB] 10 "And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations. Was the gospel proclaimed to all nations by 70 AD? Hardly."

Well, let's use the bible to find out.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," (Mat 28:18-19)

"He (Jesus) said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
(Act 1:7-8)

"And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen." (Mar 16:20)

"And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." (Act 2:5-11)

"Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word." (Act 8:4)

"But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, "These who have turned the world upside down have come here too." (Act 17:6)

"crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” (Act 21:28)

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” (Rom 10:16-18)

"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith" (Rom 16:25-26)

"...the gospel, which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and increasing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth," (Col 1:5-6)

"if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister." (Col 1:23)

"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." (1Ti 3:16)

As one can read, the Gospel was "proclaimed among the nations", "proclaimed in all creation under heaven", "the gospel..has come..in the whole world", the revelation of the mystery has no been made known to all nations, according to the command of God, "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world", the Apostle Paul was "teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law", "they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs", the Lord Himself charged the Apostles to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations", and told the same Apostles "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Please tell me what one should believe. Should we believe the claim the Gospel wasn't proclaimed to all nations by 70AD or should we believe the biblical account that it had been proclaimed to all nations, "all creation under heaven", "among the nations", "to the ends of the earth", "has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God"?

We can get to the prophetic celestial prophesies in another dialogue. This suffices for now.

God Bless

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I choose to believe what texts actually say. Not spiritualize it all away and change the meaning of the words.

 

[dwight92070]

Pales in comparison to the Holocaust.

Really disrespectful.

Jesus, being a prophet, spoke using figures of speech and hyperbole, just like the other prophets did. For example, when Ezekiel prophesied of Babylon destroying Jerusalem in 586 B.C., the Lord said:

"Behold, I, even I, am against you, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations. And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I well never do again." (Ezekiel 5:8-9) So Babylon destroyed Jerusalem the first time.

So the Lord said that He would never again destroy Jerusalem again. But He did in 70 A.D. , by the Romans. So He wasn't speaking literally but was emphacizing the immensity of the judgment.

The prophets (and God Himself) used figures of speech and hyberbole to express the intensity of the destruction.

Here's another example:

Exodus 10:14 - Moses said concerning the plague of locusts: " ... There had never been so many locusts, nor would there be so many again."

But in Joel 2:2, Joel prophecies of a plague of locusts that would come upon Jerusalem, and says: "There has never been anything like it, nor will there be again after it to the years of many generations."

So when Jesus says that there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will, He is using a Hebrew prophetic idiom and hyperbole. Yes, it was horrible, but as you said, there came one that appears to have been worse - the holocaust.

Jesus used hyperbole many times.

 

[Rockson]

Please tell me what one should believe. Should we believe the claim the Gospel wasn't proclaimed to all nations by 70AD or should we believe the biblical account that it had been proclaimed to all nations, "all creation under heaven", "among the nations", "to the ends of the earth", "has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God"?

I'm not convinced you can take verses which say this and conclude it's the fulness of peaching the gospel to ALL nations. What about the Chinese empire at the time.....or people groups of North American, or many other places of the world. And when he said after the gospel would be preached to all the earth the end would come? This happened in 70 AD? Can't accept that.

 

[Joe]

I choose to believe what texts actually say. Not spiritualize it all away and change the meaning of the words.

Tell me where I spiritualized away the meanings of the words. Was it when I proved to you using many verses that the Gospel had been preached to all nations during the time of the Apostles? "The gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

Perhaps you like many think the Lord is talking to everyone when He specifically charged the Apostles, 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations", and when He told them "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Well, who was our Lord talking to when He charged the Apostles that He chose to spread the Gospel and be a witness to the end of the earth in the power of the Holy Spirit? Please answer.

You are accusing me of something that I am not doing. I hope you see that I am defending the accounts given to us while you are claiming otherwise.

Reminds me of the situation with our Lord and the disciples when they were coming down the mountain. The unbelieving scribes were saying that Elijah must come first before the Messiah (Mal 4:5-6), so "the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist." (Mat 17:10-13)

And our Lord even addressed the crowd "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Mat 11:12-15)

The scribes in their ignorance were actually waiting for Elijah to come. They did not accept that John the Baptist is the Elijah that was to come. And because they didn't accept it, they stayed in their ignorance and missed everything that was right under their noses.

It is right in front of your nose and yet you will not accept the written account that the Gospel has been preached to all of creation under heaven, claimed by the man the Lord miraculously chose, called, revealed Himself to, empowered, and charged specially with preaching the Gospel to the nations.

You, like many others, are waiting for something that has happened already, just like the scribes missing the prophecy of Elijah.

You had nothing to say in rebuttal with the texts that prove your understanding is wrong. And instead of admitting it, you suggest that I do away with the truth of the text by placing meanings that do not apply. But I am not the one who has done away with the meaning of the text. I proved the truth of the text which you do not accept. Please prove me wrong in this and agree with the Apostle Paul that the Gospel "has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

God Bless

 

[Rockson]

Tell me where I spiritualized away the meanings of the words. Was it when I proved to you using many verses that the Gospel had been preached to all nations during the time of the Apostles? "The gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

Seems to me that would be a hyperbolic statement. What it meant was the nations basically in what they called the world, the Roman world. There's no indication the Chinese empire had heard of Christianity. Other place in the world as well. And if you're going to assert the gospel preached to all nations was absolutely fulfilled then you're saying the Great Commission is meaningless for today and maybe you have no problem saying that.

You, like many others, are waiting for something that has happened already, just like the scribes missing the prophecy of Elijah.

But then again others have said things have happened which really didn't happen (see 2 Tim 2:18)

Please prove me wrong in this and agree with the Apostle Paul that the Gospel "has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

In the way he was saying the words yes that was true. You need to consider though how was he meaning the words.

 

[dwight92070]

I'm not convinced you can take verses which say this and conclude it's the fulness of peaching the gospel to ALL nations. What about the Chinese empire at the time.....or people groups of North American, or many other places of the world. And when he said after the gospel would be preached to all the earth the end would come? This happened in 70 AD? Can't accept that.

It was the end of the Jewish order. For the Jews, it was the end of the world they lived in. Without the temple and Jerusalem and the Law of Moses and the over one million Jews who lived there, they were totally devastated. That was their whole life. They wouldn't know how to even function without all of that. The Pharisees, the Scribes, the Sadducees, the lawyers, the rabbis, the High priests and the sons of Aaron, ALL depended on the temple and the sacrifices and the Law of Moses, for their very existence. When all of that was literally demolished, it would be the end of their lives. For most of them, it was the end of their life. Josephus says that 1,100,000 Jews were killed. Then hundreds of thousands more were taken to be brutally killed in Roman arenas and enslaved throughout the Roman empire.
So when Jesus said, "Your house is being left to you desolate!" (Matthew 23:38), it truly was the abomination of desolation, when the Roman army surrounded and entered the city.
The Jews that believed Jesus, however, fled to the mountains, like he said - and survived. But there was nothing afterwards for them to come back to, so they were dispersed among the nations, taking the message of the gospel with them. The only thing they had left was JESUS' words and His teaching, and the comfort of the Holy Spirit, and each other, as they departed to different nations, to start over with their lives.
When Jesus said that the gospel must be preached to every nation - then the end shall come, it's possible, once again, that He is using hyperbole. The "whole world" or "every nation" could easily be understood as the whole Roman world, and Paul and others (Apollos, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, Titus, Philip, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, etc.) covered much, if not all, of that - and then their converts certainly continued the spread of the gospel, even beyond that.

But "the end shall come" was not hyperbole. It was the end of the Jewish order, the Law of Moses (although technically it ended at the cross), the temple, the sacrifices, the priests, the lawyers, the annual feasts, the scribes, the Pharisees, the Sadduccees - all of that came to an end.

Peter said, "The end of all things is near; ..." 1 Peter 4:7. The author of Hebrews said of the Law: " ... whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." Hebrews 8:13
Peter, on the day of Pentecost quoted Joel: "And it shall be in the LAST DAYS, God says ..." Acts 2:17
So the apostles knew that the end was near - however they may have thought it was the end of the world, not as it turned out to be, the end of the Jewish order.
Hebrews 1:2 "In these last days ..."
James 5:3 "It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure."
1 Peter 1:20 " ... He ... has appeared in these last times ..."
1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour ..."

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

@Joe Joe I read your long posts and choose not to argue. There is so much intertwined stream of consciousness connected that it would take too much of my time that I'm not willing yo spend. I convinced you wouldn't be accepting of it anyway and just want to continue with your own diatribe. it's not really a discussion.

I summarized the main problem with your view a few posts ago. It still applies.
You can keep quoting verses and keep claiming Jesus said so, but if you keep misapplying those verses to a false understanding of historical facts, it doesn't mean you are correct.

 

[e v e]

The Pharisees, the Scribes, the Sadducees, the lawyers, the rabbis, the High priests and the sons of Aaron, ALL depended on the temple and the sacrifices and the Law of Moses, for their very existence. When all of that was literally demolished, it would be the end of their lives.

old israel did not listen to God and instead
only their own ways...
and because of their depraved lying pharisees
they cursed themselves.

 

[Rockson]

But "the end shall come" was not hyperbole. It was the end of the Jewish order, the Law of Moses (although technically it ended at the cross), the temple, the sacrifices, the priests, the lawyers, the annual feasts, the scribes, the Pharisees, the Sadduccees - all of that came to an end.

Thing is though when one reads Mt 24 I believe it's clear it's talking about the end coming meaning when we see the following,

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:‘ The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky ,and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I don't believe there's any way we can say the gathering together of his elect by the angels took place in the 70 AD time frame. That's talking about at the end of time or...in our day or in the future ahead.

 

[Rockson]

I believe the Bible does seem to indicate a futurist way of thinking about Revelation. I think God has given us certain gems of truth to validate this. Here's a couple of such verses,

Rev 9 and Rev 16:12 speaks of 200 million soldiers coming from the east.

“Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. Rev 9: 14

“And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” Rev 16:12

The whole population of all the earth has been estimated to be only around 150 million in the first century. So we're talking about soldiers here from a place called the East.....with nations like China having at least 1 billion alone it most certainly could send a military force of the 200 million numbers. No way in the 1st Century could you have seen that. But is the 200 million number from the east symbolic?

I just can't believe that. Why not 100 million or 300 million? What would there be about 200 million that could possibly be symbolic about anything Seeing it should be considered literal it's God's way of saying to us that he knew that in our end times people would say all Revelation was in the past.....I'll just inject this number in here and make sure John records it so as to let people know.....it's way off in the future.

 

[Joe]

@Joe Joe I read your long posts and choose not to argue. There is so much intertwined stream of consciousness connected that it would take too much of my time that I'm not willing yo spend. I convinced you wouldn't be accepting of it anyway and just want to continue with your own diatribe. it's not really a discussion.

I summarized the main problem with your view a few posts ago. It still applies.
You can keep quoting verses and keep claiming Jesus said so, but if you keep misapplying those verses to a false understanding of historical facts, it doesn't mean you are correct.

You convict me of misapplying when it is you who will not agree with the biblical record. Prove me wrong and agree with Paul that "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

You cannot do it honestly without applying a condition that suits your misunderstanding. Prove me wrong and say, yes, Paul was right, "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven". You see, I can and do and say it. See the problem? One of us agrees with the biblical record and one cannot to suit his desires.

Thank you for reading the posts. I do know they are long, but they are detailed for a purpose.

One more thing, it is you that began a "diatribe" and in turn received it back. That shoe fits your foot too. You may want to think about it.

God Bless

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

You convict me of misapplying when it is you who will not agree with the biblical record. Prove me wrong and agree with Paul that "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

You cannot do it honestly without applying a condition that suits your misunderstanding. Prove me wrong and say, yes, Paul was right, "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven". You see, I can and do say it. See the problem? One of us agrees with the biblical record and one cannot to suit his desires.

Thank you for reading the posts. I do know they are long, but they are detailed for a purpose.

One more thing, it is you that began a "diatribe" and in turn received it back. That shoe fits your foot too. You may want to think about it.

God Bless

Not falling for it.

 

[Joe]

Not falling for it.

Falling for the truth is always the best course to take. "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven".

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Seems to me that would be a hyperbolic statement. What it meant was the nations basically in what they called the world, the Roman world. There's no indication the Chinese empire had heard of Christianity. Other place in the world as well. And if you're going to assert the gospel preached to all nations was absolutely fulfilled then you're saying the Great Commission is meaningless for today and maybe you have no problem saying that.

Let's do a quick walk though of Mark 13 copied and pasted below for reference.

What is the event that spurred the questions from some disciples in verse 4?
Answer: Verse 2.

Who's questions did the Lord answer?
Answer: Verses 3 and 4

So the destruction of the temple and its buildings is the event, and the questions from Peter, James, John, and Andrew have to do with timing, "when" will these things be, and the indicator, "sign" that it is about to happen.

Our Lord begins to tell the disciples things that will happen in verses 5 through 3 before the destruction of the temple and its buildings of verse 2.

The key indicator is detailed in verse 14.
"But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

The same indicator is used by Luke 21:20
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

The questions are: Did the event of verse 2 actually happen? And did the key indicator of verse 14 happen?

If your answer is yes to both, then you agree with history that in 66AD the Roman armies under Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem indicating its destruction was near as stated in verse 14. And by God's grace, Cestius Gallus pulled back and departed giving God's faithful time to flee the city before its utter destruction, verses 14, 15 and 16. And then General Titus, the son of Roman Emperor Vespasian, advanced upon Jerusalem in 70AD laying siege and entering in, completely destroying what remained of the city and the temple.

So we know verse 2 actually did happen, and we know verse 14 actually happened too. To this day the Arch of Titus still stands in Rome commerating his triumph over the Jewish people.

So by default, all of the things mentioned in verse 5 through 13 had to happen too. They had too if our Lord is true. There is no other viable understanding that can circumvent the discourse of our Lord as He stated, since the destruction of the temple in verse 2 is contigent upon their fulfillment.

The Apostle Paul was not wrong when he stated, "the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven", because verse 10 must be fulfilled before verse 2 could happen, and we know Jerusalem with the temple and its buildings were destroyed.

And also by default, verses 17 through 23 happened too; for all the verses ultimately have to do with the event of verse 2.
We cannot say a one of these verses did not happen but still claim 2 did, for then none of them could happen, or the Lord was wrong by saying they would. This also means verse 19 about tribulation is about this same event and not another event.

I hope this makes sense. There is no spiritualizing of anything. Just fulfillment of the events as foretold by our Lord.

Mark 13:1-23 has been fulfilled entirely.

God Bless

Mar 13:1-23
(1) And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!”
(2) And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
(3) And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
(4) “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?”
(5) And Jesus began to say to them, “See that no one leads you astray.
(6) Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and they will lead many astray.
(7) And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is not yet.
(8) For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. These are but the beginning of the birth pains.
(9) “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them.
(10) And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations.
(11) And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
(12) And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death.
(13) And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(14) “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
(15) Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out,
(16) and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
(17) And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
(18) Pray that it may not happen in winter.
(19) For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
(20) And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
(21) And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it.
(22) For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
(23) But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

@Joe
I've changed my mind. Reviewing this thread from the very first post, you have been stating things which are factually incorrect and misapplying Scripture through this entire discussion. Through your long winded comments you play Bible verse pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey creating a air of support which just is not accurate. But the one thing that the entire thread was started with is "the abomination of desolation" - so let's set that straight.

And I say back to you; that historical fact in correct application is there and you refuse to accept it. We will go nowhere with this type of bantering. So, please let's leave it out of the conversation and deal with the verses and their application.

No one said there was an object-idol setup. The Lord stated, "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". Luke interprets it, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

The abomination that desolates is the pagan Roman armies that stood in the land of Israel, even in the temple as the Romans destroyed it leaving no stone upon another as foretold by the Lord. The abomination that desolates was desolating the people, the city, and the temple.

And the Lord had already left the temple desolate. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” (Mat 23:37-39)

I hope you can understand now that it is the pagan Roman armies that stood in the holy place, being the abomination of desolation spoken by the prophet Daniel as the Lord foretold.

Just to start off with: Jesus did not say what you claim He said. And continually stating it does not make it correct. So stop using Jesus as a confirmation of your point of view, m'k?

To summarize your thesis using your own statements:
1. All the prophecies in Daniel about the abomination of desolation have already taken place.
2. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 tell of the one and same event.
3. The mention in Dan 11:31... is when Antiochus IV Epiphanes ... desecrates the temple.
4. We know the abomination that causes desolation is the Roman army that did indeed desolate Jerusalem

Everything else are the details you've found to support this thesis.

Let's address the points of your thesis - as briefly as possible. It was very curious as to why Dan 11:31 is not part of your 70 AD narrative even though it very clearly is about "abomination of desolation". Well, it's obvious that Daniel 11 (King of the North vs. King of the South) in no way describes the history of the Roman attack against Jerusalem and Judea. So you have to explain it away - trying to equate it with an actual instance of the desecration of the temple. However, the details in that section of Daniel 11 do not in any way describe the actions of Antiochus either. The confirmation is right in the text: Dan 11:35 and Dan 11:29

[Dan 11:29, 35 LSB] 29 "At the appointed time he will return and come into the South, but this last time it will not happen the way it did before. ...

35 "And some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge, and make them pure until the time of the end, because [it is] still [to come] at the appointed time.

The text specifically says that this part of the prophecy is describing the time of the end; the time appointed. Something still future to us.

Next, one of your major points is to equate the "abomination of desolation" with the Roman army. You state:

The Roman armies under Cestius entered the outskirts of Jerusalem in late 66 AD. This began the clock for 1290 days between the Roman armies that make desolate the city of Jerusalem and the end of the regular burnt offering that ceased to be offered mid-70AD.

You quote Dan 12:11 as support:

"And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." (Dan 12:11)

Anyone can see you have misinterpreted the passage. There is no 1290 day countdown between a "desolation" to when the offerings ceased. Even if there was, Dan 12:11 reverses the order you assume. The prophecy is actually equating two events which happen at the same time with the "and". In addition, you have a completely wrong idea about when this takes place. The verse in context is the Messenger's answer to Daniel's question. The answer he receives very clearly states this happens at the end days:

[Dan 12:9 LSB] 9 Then he said, "Go [your way], Daniel, for [these] words are concealed and sealed up until the time of the end.

And finally Daniel 9:27. The 70 Weeks. Since I can't find exactly how you fit this in and your interpretation of the 70 Weeks, I can only state the obvious from the text itself. This abomination action happens in the middle of the last set of 7 years (Week). In addition the prophecy refers to "one" who will come to make desolate. Yet you refer to the abomination as an entire army - many, many people. You can not have it both ways. The Scripture says a single person. But you want (need) to make this about an army. So 3 1/2 years later was 74 AD. And....what exactly happened in 74 AD that was a complete destruction of the Roman army? It was the end of the 70 Weeks afterall and according to your view all 6 reasons given for the 70 Weeks (Dan 9:24) MUST have been fulfilled.

The statements you have made through this thread just do not stand up to the texts in Scripture. I don't even have to continue on to address the misinterpretations you've stated of Matthew, Mark and Luke. The deficiencies of your statements about the "abomination of desolation" in Daniel is enough.

We can get to the prophetic celestial prophesies in another dialogue. This suffices for now.

No thanks. If what you've already stated contains misapplication of Scripture, then anything else would not be worthwhile.

 

[DavidTree]

Because the Bible tells me to confess my sins and ask for forgiveness.

If sins really "ended" I would be in rebellion and unbelief concerning the declaration that sins are ended to do this.

Is not "the end of sins/transgressions and iniquity" = the Son of God nailed to the Cross?

 

[DavidTree]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both give us details of the same conversation our Lord had with the disciples about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Hebrew dispensation. It was not directed towards us in the future. It was directed at the Jews of their day and was consummated when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem.

Both Matthew and Luke document the beginning of the conversation.

• (Matthew) "Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mat 24:1-3)
• (Luke) "And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” (Luk 21:5-7)

As the conversation continues, Jesus is recorded by Matthew as using the term "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel", and Luke documents his statement as, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

• (Matthew) “So, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Mat 24:15-18)
• (Luke) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luk 21:20-22)

We know the abomination that causes desolation is the Roman army that did indeed desolate Jerusalem, as prophesied by Jesus and the prophet Daniel. We also understand that even though Luke did not use the same vernacular as Matthew, they both were talking about the same conversation and event. Luke wrote, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Matthew wrote, "when you see the abomination of desolation...standing in the holy place."

In Matthew's account, Jesus specifically mentioned, "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel."

There are two direct mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel (Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11), and one indirect by saying on the wings of abominations shall be one who desolates (Dan 9:27).

The mention in Dan 11:31 is not in correlation with what Jesus stated, which we know happened in 66-70 AD. It is when Antiochus IV Epiphanes was returning to Syria after his campaign against Egypt and heard the Jews were celebrating a rumor that he had died, so in rage he enters Jerusalem, killing 80,000 and taking others as slaves, and desecrates the temple.

The other two mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel are in correlation with what Jesus stated.

"And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:27B)

"And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." (Dan 12:11)

The Roman armies under Cestius entered the outskirts of Jerusalem in late 66 AD. This began the clock for 1290 days between the Roman armies that make desolate the city of Jerusalem and the end of the regular burnt offering that ceased to be offered mid-70AD. (Josephus Wars, II, 19:4, Wars, VI, 2:1)

All the prophecies in Daniel about the abomination of desolation have already taken place. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 prophecy about the same abomination of desolation event in different settings that tell of the one and same event.

Biblically, we are not expecting another temple or abomination that makes desolation. "The shattering of the power of the holy people (Jewish people)", in accordance with the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled in 70 AD. As told to Daniel, "Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand." (Dan 12:10)

In 70 AD the Words of our Lord came true, "There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”, and "The shattering of the power of the holy people (Jewish people)" happened as prophesied.

God Bless

There were two Temples and both Temples had "abominations" enter them.

Why would you believe that it will not occur again?


Daniel 11:36-39
"Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain."

This Prophecy has yet to be Fulfilled in all it's detail.

Remember, some prophecies continue repeating until ALL is fulfilled.

"If we fail to learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it."