The abomination of desolation

[Joe]

OK to the Messiah what? Was born in Bethlehem? Or started his ministry which many suggest was about 30 AD?

I would think unto the Messiah would mean unto when He is revealed to Israel, which would be when He began to preach repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

So are you saying the day Jesus died on the cross marked the end of the 69th week? If you are that would mean the start of the 69th week started about 27 AD? Which would make one wonder why wouldn't there be anything of a mention of something special even being noted in scripture about that year. Just trying to understand what you're saying.

So you're putting forth AFTER the 69th week Jesus died on the cross. But I know reading from other partial preterist they acknowledge this would have happened half way through the 70th week.....So that takes you half way through....3 1/2 years.....SO what about the other 3 1/2 years????(that is of the last 7 years) If you believe there is NO GAP that would take it to 36 1/2 AD. So why should that be of any significance?

And a Bible teacher, well known, a Partial Preterist implied the last half of the 7 years there is a gap to about 67 AD a when all the dark sun/blood moon things, and wrath things of Revelation took place.....This was after they had made light of those who claim there's a 2000 years gap between Jesus dying to our present day.....and they went right a head then and implied there could be a gap between 33 AD and 70 AD. To me it didn't seem consistent.

Let me clean up my mess a little.

There are 490 years in the prophecy using a year for a day. The prophecy states it is 483 years (69 weeks) to the Messiah. This means from the time to rebuild the city to the Messiah 483 years (69 weeks) elapsed. The prophecy states the Messiah dies after 483 years, which means He dies in the 70th week.

We know historically that our Lord died and was resurrected 3.5 years after He began preaching, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15). The Lord even announced the time is fulfilled; meaning the time specified for the time of the Messiah, in particular by Daniel since his gave a firm start and end.

This puts it at 486.5 years, which is 3.5 years from completing the 70th week.

We have not discussed the two following verses, 26 and 27 that in part is often mistakenly drawn into the 70 weeks.

It is important to note in these two verses, 26 and 27 that only a part of them pertian to the six things that were decreed to happen within the 70 weeks, as prophesied in verses 24 and 25.

Verses 26 and 27 are bifid structured prophecies, meaning it is like looking at a tree leaf, one half matches the other. The blue text pertains to the same people and events, and the red text pertains to the same peoples and event. So both verses pertain to the same things yet differently.

(Dan 9:26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(Dan 9:27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The meaning of verses 26 and 27 are divided into two matching parts like looking at a leaf.

The blue text pertians to when our Lord died in the middle of the 70th week. His death put an end to sacrifices and offerings because His death initiated the New Covenant, making the first one obsolete that required the daily sacrifices and offerings, even with the veil of the temple being torn in two upon His death. He also firmed the New Covenant with many by His own ministry and that of His Apostles in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The red text pertains to Prince Titus of the Roman Armies who advanced against Jerusalem and desolated it, as decreed by God. This happened in 70AD and is not a part of the 70 weeks, because it has nothing to do with the six events decreed by God to happen in the 70 weeks. This is often overlooked by many people. It is a mistake that often causes confusion.

The 70 weeks are over. They began when the command was issued to rebuild Jerusalem, after the Jewish people were released from captivity to Babylon, and ended 3.5 years after our Lord died and resurrected. There is no gap, not even a small one. The 70 weeks ran consecutively upon the command to rebuild. We know the six events happened, for we are living the glorious results of what our Great God has done through His one and only Son Jesus Christ, who gave His life to die for our sins and to begin the New Covenant. And we know that Prince Titus commanded the Roman Armies that advanced against Jerusalem and desolated the city, as decreed by God.

God Bless

 

[dwight92070]

I think the Lord was crucified at around 30 A.D. and Paul was appointed to reach the Gentiles at around 34 A.D. So allowing for some unknowns, we do see a period of about 3 1/2 years. It is quite inconsistent to assign a gap between His crucifixion and 70 A.D.

 

[Rockson]

I would think unto the Messiah would mean unto when He is revealed to Israel, which would be when He began to preach repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Let me clean up my mess a little.

There are 490 years in the prophecy using a year for a day. The prophecy states it is 483 years (69 weeks) to the Messiah. This means from the time to rebuild the city to the Messiah 483 years (69 weeks) elapsed. The prophecy states the Messiah dies after 483 years, which means He dies in the 70th week.

We know historically that our Lord died and was resurrected 3.5 years after He began preaching, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1:15). The Lord even announced the time is fulfilled; meaning the time specified for the time of the Messiah, in particular by Daniel since his gave a firm start and end.

This puts it at 486.5 years, which is 3.5 years from completing the 70th week.

We have not discussed the two following verses, 26 and 27 that in part is often mistakenly drawn into the 70 weeks.

It is important to note in these two verses, 26 and 27 that only a part of them pertian to the six things that were decreed to happen within the 70 weeks, as prophesied in verses 24 and 25.

Verses 26 and 27 are bifid structured prophecies, meaning it is like looking at a tree leaf, one half matches the other. The blue text pertains to the same people and events, and the red text pertains to the same peoples and event. So both verses pertain to the same things yet differently.

(Dan 9:26) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(Dan 9:27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

The meaning of verses 26 and 27 are divided into two matching parts like looking at a leaf.

The blue text pertians to when our Lord died in the middle of the 70th week. His death put an end to sacrifices and offerings because His death initiated the New Covenant, making the first one obsolete that required the daily sacrifices and offerings, even with the veil of the temple being torn in two upon His death. He also firmed the New Covenant with many by His own ministry and that of His Apostles in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The red text pertains to Prince Titus of the Roman Armies who advanced against Jerusalem and desolated it, as decreed by God. This happened in 70AD and is not a part of the 70 weeks, because it has nothing to do with the six events decreed by God to happen in the 70 weeks. This is often overlooked by many people. It is a mistake that often causes confusion.

The 70 weeks are over. They began when the command was issued to rebuild Jerusalem, after the Jewish people were released from captivity to Babylon, and ended 3.5 years after our Lord died and resurrected. There is no gap, not even a small one. The 70 weeks ran consecutively upon the command to rebuild. We know the six events happened, for we are living the glorious results of what our Great God has done through His one and only Son Jesus Christ, who gave His life to die for our sins and to begin the New Covenant. And we know that Prince Titus commanded the Roman Armies that advanced against Jerusalem and desolated the city, as decreed by God.

God Bless

Interesting post. But now a few questions. You quoted Dan 9:17 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week. But what does this mean he makes a strong covenant for one week....a seven year period. Jesus made an agreement to someone for 7 years?

What is it about 7 years, if it had to do in the time of Jesus ministry? I get what you say Jesus was cut off either 3 1/2 years in the middle of the 70th week, or it was at the end of the 70th week but why the 7 year agreement of anything? So the verse below for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.....

(Dan 9:27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

If that's halfway through the week....then what is the significance of the last 3 1/2 years? Perhaps you feel you've explained it....it might be my fault but I'm not getting it.

 

[Rockson]

If Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, what happened at the end of the next 3 1/2 years? We don't know for sure, which in itself does not negate the theory.

I agree no it wouldn't. I appreciate you acknowledge it's not firm pat on what you call a theory. There is this question though and it remains....what about the last half of the week? Futurists believe the fulness of what occurs in the 7 year period is fully described in Revelation. I had listened to Steve Greggs teaching you tube, The Tribulation Period......he puts forth the 70th week as the ministry of Jesus and doesn't answer about the last half of the week.

He suggested Paul's conversion next fulfilled the 70th week ....as you do in your post.....that is though a speculation thing. He stated some have suggested, although he stated he doesn't go there but that maybe there is a gap between Jesus death.....gap starts....and then right up to about 67 AD for 3 years where Jerusalem is attacked sun/darkened/moon blood, and all things of wrath in Revelation . So it started with there is no gap but then a suggestion maybe there is?

But some have suggested this possibility: "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people ...", the angel said to Daniel. So God was dealing with the Jews for their salvation until the end of that 3 1/2 years. Something of great significance DID happen at about that time - 34 A.D. - Saul was converted to Jesus, became Paul, and God called him to be the apostle to reach the GENTILES.

Study out on google the year of Paul's conversion....and even Jesus death. It seems many are all over the map when it comes to what year AD these things happened. Some feel Jesus went the cross around 28 AD...others says about 33 AD.....Paul's conversion was possibly a year after Jesus death.....

but then he went to Arabia for 3 years so coming back from there would make it 4 years. So 3 years after Jesus death would be the end of the 70th week. So is the Paul possibility of being the focus of the end of the 70th week be true. It most certainly is not very clear however which could put a question mark on the whole theory.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The discussion in this thread has many (common) misunderstandings, Christian myths, and outright false statements of these topics. The first point is that you can not use any English translation to come to a proper and correct understanding of these topics. You have to go to the texts in the original languages they were authored in. When you do that you find out the following:

-the public ministry of Jesus was not 3 1/2 years long. It was about 2 1/2 years only.

-even though the exact date of the crucifixion is not given, the evidences in the text show that it could not have been on a Friday and could not have been in 30 AD or even 33 AD. It was in fact, on Wednesday, April 25, 31 AD

-nothing like the abomination of desolation happened in 70 AD. Josephus records that the temple was burning and/or burnt before anyone could even have set foot in the Holy of Holies. You can not desecrate something that was already destroyed. That is, the temple sacrifices were stopped because the place was burnt down. Not because someone offered a pig on the altar or some such.

-much is wrongly assumed about the "peace covenant" of Daniel 9:27. Study how Daniel uses that word for "covenant" in the rest of his book. Actually, just look at what "covenant" refers to in the first part of Daniel 9. It's not a peace treaty. He uses an entirely different word when describing an alliance between two fighting nations.

That's only 4 examples of the wrong think that is going on in this thread.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Still there are huge stones atop one another in Jerusalem with the Wailing Wall, which is part of the Western Wall of the old temple complex.

View attachment 263

If the Wailing Wall was part (any part) of the temple in the time of Jesus, then Jesus is made out to be a liar. No stone would be left on top of another. That actually means no stones. Means no wall. What they are worshiping at there was not part of the temple. It's an evidence of their current blindness (and a lot of Christians) when they believe this false history.

Doing just a bit of easy research reading in the Old Testament and you can know exactly where the temple stood (both temples actually). The City of David in the northern part of that fortress. And that is just south of the Dome of the Rock complex which was the Fortress of Antonia.

 

[Joe]

The discussion in this thread has many (common) misunderstandings, Christian myths, and outright false statements of these topics. The first point is that you can not use any English translation to come to a proper and correct understanding of these topics. You have to go to the texts in the original languages they were authored in. When you do that you find out the following:

-the public ministry of Jesus was not 3 1/2 years long. It was about 2 1/2 years only.

-even though the exact date of the crucifixion is not given, the evidences in the text show that it could not have been on a Friday and could not have been in 30 AD or even 33 AD. It was in fact, on Wednesday, April 25, 31 AD

-nothing like the abomination of desolation happened in 70 AD. Josephus records that the temple was burning and/or burnt before anyone could even have set foot in the Holy of Holies. You can not desecrate something that was already destroyed. That is, the temple sacrifices were stopped because the place was burnt down. Not because someone offered a pig on the altar or some such.

-much is wrongly assumed about the "peace covenant" of Daniel 9:27. Study how Daniel uses that word for "covenant" in the rest of his book. Actually, just look at what "covenant" refers to in the first part of Daniel 9. It's not a peace treaty. He uses an entirely different word when describing an alliance between two fighting nations.

That's only 4 examples of the wrong think that is going on in this thread.

I would be interested in your understanding. What do you make of Matthew 24 compared to Luke 21?

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Interesting post. But now a few questions. You quoted Dan 9:17 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week. But what does this mean he makes a strong covenant for one week....a seven year period. Jesus made an agreement to someone for 7 years?

What is it about 7 years, if it had to do in the time of Jesus ministry? I get what you say Jesus was cut off either 3 1/2 years in the middle of the 70th week, or it was at the end of the 70th week but why the 7 year agreement of anything? So the verse below for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.....

(Dan 9:27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.

If that's halfway through the week....then what is the significance of the last 3 1/2 years? Perhaps you feel you've explained it....it might be my fault but I'm not getting it.

In the last 7 years of the 490, our Lord appeared as a man and died for our sins and arose to give us eternal life. He ascended into Heaven and fulfilled Daniel 7:13-14. His personal ministry and that of His chosen Apostles firmed the New Covenant of God for all peoples in the last week.

Recap: The six things that were to happen in the 70 weeks have happened as prophesied. And the vengeance of God against the wicked Jewish people happened just as described and prophesied when prince Titus advanced upon Jerusalem and leveled it.

The New Covenant that was firmly established over 2000 years ago has advanced from one generation of man to another, having spread across the world. And it is historical fact of Jerusalem's destruction and the awful tribulation that befell the wicked Jews whom God was enraged.

God Bless

 

[Rockson]

In the last 7 years of the 490, our Lord appeared as a man and died for our sins and arose to give us eternal life. He ascended into Heaven and fulfilled Daniel 7:13-14. His personal ministry and that of His chosen Apostles firmed the New Covenant of God for all peoples in the last week.

There is a weakness in what you put forth though and it's what I've underscored above. You're saying what the Apostles did fulfilled the end of the week, which would be 3 1/2 years. There's nothing which absolutely defines in Paul's writings or the other Apostles that what they did completed Daniels 70th week. I would expect to see a mentioning of such, something like and so we fulfilled now the prophecy of Daniel of that week. (7 years) There is no such mentioning therefore what you're teaching remains theory....not conclusive and I wouldn't be teaching it as fact.

Recap: The six things that were to happen in the 70 weeks have happened as prophesied. And the vengeance of God against the wicked Jewish people happened just as described and prophesied when prince Titus advanced upon Jerusalem and leveled it.

But the Jerusalem destruction did not take place in the 70th week. I do agree when Jesus spoke of armies surrounding Jerusalem, temple stones cast down was what he was getting at in the gospel for why wouldn't it be. That was major they lost even the appearance of having a nation and were scattered. I don't agree you can impose all the things of wrath in Revelation to what happened in Jerusalem however. I think that's a stretch beyond belief when one reads of the magnitude of impact the things that Revelation speaks of and to say it happened in the first Century.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I would be interested in your understanding. What do you make of Matthew 24 compared to Luke 21?

God Bless

In order to make a comparison of Matthew 24 with Luke 21 would take too much time and effort. To treat the subject properly one would have to explain why the Matthew 24 teaching combines what is separated out into two entirely different occasions of Luke 17 and Luke 21. And one would have to also address the similar teaching in Mark 13.

But what I'd to address is the most common parroted phrase which Christians have been using for millennia now in order to cancel each other. "No one knows the day or the hour". If someone doesn't like someone's opinion about the Second Coming the knee-jerk action is to yell in their face "No one knows the day or the hour". It's like screaming "conspiracy theorist" at someone in order to try and discredit them.

Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 contain the statement.
[Mat 24:36 LSB] 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
[Mar 13:32 LSB] 32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father [alone].

A definite statement that allows for no other interpretation, right? Or does it? The english translations always include the particular interpretation bias of the translators. You always have to be aware of this. Constantly go back to the text in the original language to examine things for yourselves. But exactly what language was this text written in? As we've always been taught for centuries in Western Christianity, it was obviously written in Greek. However, the Church of the East has their Scriptures in Syriac (Aramaic) and their tradition is that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic from the start.

I'll show you something which you probably haven't noticed before. And it's right in this section as well.
[Mat 24:28 BBE] 28 Wherever the dead body is, there will the eagles come together.

A lot of newer translations change out "eagles" for "vultures". It's a well known fact that eagles are not carrion birds. Yet the term in the Greek is "aetos" and very clearly refers to an eagle. So what's going on with the original text making such an obvious mistake about bird behaviour?

Well, if you check what the Peshitta (the New Testament in Aramaic) says, it uses the word "neshra". It can mean BOTH a vulture or an eagle (http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr=2:13642&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&source=ubs&size=125%)

In case that's not good enough, Aramaic and Hebrew are very closely related. Check out Leviticus 11:13 where the related word there is "nesher" and means eagle, vulture, or griffon vulture. What's a "griffon vulture". It's a vulture eagle with a very large wing span. It's a massive bird and majestically soars on thermal currents. (https://animalia.bio/griffon-vulture)

So the Aramaic describes a carrion bird with wings as large and majestic as an eagle. The Greek word does not have this connotation at all. This is evidence that the Aramaic is much closer to (if not the) original language of this text.

Getting back to the other texts. Examine the Greek grammar:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear/mgnt/mat/24/36/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear/mgnt/mar/13/32/

Notice the word for "know" is "oudeis" and then there is an interesting two word phrase "ei me" being translated as "but". It literally means "not lest if". That does not make sense in the context of what the translators thought so they left out the "if".

However, there is another verse that has very similar grammatical structure. But you wouldn't know it in the english translations.
[1Co 2:2 LSB] 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/interlinear/mgnt/1co/2/2/

What does that even mean? Paul decided to "know nothing"? How is that even possible? There are those same two words in Greek "ei me". "not lest if". Here the english translates the words as "except".

Here the Aramaic gives some clues as to the proper interpretation.
http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/analyz...2&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%

The word used for "know" doesn't just mean in the state of having the knowledge but can have the sense of an omniscient one revealing and making that knowledge known. So Paul is stating that he decided to reveal nothing among them except if it was about Jesus Christ and specifically Him crucified.

Apply that back to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
But about that day and about that hour no one can reveal it; not the angels in heaven, not the son; except if the Father [allows].

And we can be sure that it is possible to know this information (according to God's plan) later in Matthew 24:43. Jesus tells his followers to stay awake. If the owner of the house had known when the thief would come, he would have been prepared and not had his belongings stolen. That means if they stay awake it IS possible to know at what time this will all happen. But it is according to God's pleasure for this to be revealed to those that are prepared and watching and with a proper understanding of that which was taught through the Scriptures.

So screaming "no one knows the day or the hour" at each other just shows the ignorance of what Jesus was actually trying to get across.

 

[Joe]

There is a weakness in what you put forth though and it's what I've underscored above. You're saying what the Apostles did fulfilled the end of the week, which would be 3 1/2 years. There's nothing which absolutely defines in Paul's writings or the other Apostles that what they did completed Daniels 70th week. I would expect to see a mentioning of such, something like and so we fulfilled now the prophecy of Daniel of that week. (7 years) There is no such mentioning therefore what you're teaching remains theory....not conclusive and I wouldn't be teaching it as fa

The prophecy states it is the Messiah who firms the covenant. After our Lord gave His life for our sins and to initiate the New Covenant, He firmed it-securely fixed it in place-by working with and through His Apostles. They were the ones whom our Lord commissioned to preach the Gospel of our God, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

"So then the Lord, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. They went out, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen." (Mar 16:19-20)

"So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Act 1:6-8)

For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. (Php 2:13)

I hope you understand it is the Lord in us, working through us for His good pleasure, even confirming the preaching of His Word that He planted in our heart by signs that follow.

I know have said this many times now because it is true; the decree for the seventy weeks was for six things to be accomplished. And all six things were accomplished. This means the prophecy is fulfilled.

I understand you want conclusive proof. "Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem." (Luk 24:44-47)

Everything about our Lord, including the seventy weeks and firming the covenant-"that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem" have been fulfilled. The six things of the seventy weeks were accomplished by the death and resurrection of our Lord. The firming of the New Covenant after He ascended into Heaven also happened as He worked with and through His chosen Apostles to establish the New Covenant with whoever would believe, His Church.

But the Jerusalem destruction did not take place in the 70th week. I do agree when Jesus spoke of armies surrounding Jerusalem, temple stones cast down was what he was getting at in the gospel for why wouldn't it be. That was major they lost even the appearance of having a nation and were scattered. I don't agree you can impose all the things of wrath in Revelation to what happened in Jerusalem however. I think that's a stretch beyond belief when one reads of the magnitude of impact the things that Revelation speaks of and to say it happened in the first Century.

I agree. The destruction of Jerusalem was not one of the six things that was decreed to happen in the seventy weeks. I have stood by this throughout our dialogue.

Just to confirm, do you agree the abomination of desolation as recorded in Matthew 24 is the Roman armies that Luke records from the same conversation in Luke 21?

Jesus is recorded by Matthew as using the term "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel", and Luke documents his statement as, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

• (Matthew) “So, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Mat 24:15-18)
• (Luke) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luk 21:20-22)

I really have no desire to go into Revelation. It is not in the scope of understanding Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13.

But I will say, the Lord Himself said about the vengence of God upon Jerusalem, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

No matter how we qualify great tribulation, such as the holocaust, nothing can compare to God's anger against the stiff-necked rebellious unbelieving Jewish people who were given the true revelation of God and His promises, only to bear false witness against His Son and murder Him by using the idolatrous Gentiles.

(Mat 22:2-7) "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come. Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

(Mat 22:2-7) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

Those are not my words, nor that of any scholar. Those are the Words or our Lord when talking about the coming vengence of God upon Jerusalem. The Words of our Lord were fulfilled when the Roman armies advanced against the city and leveled it. It was not only its destruction, but also the evilness of the wicked Jews and what they did to one another within the city while under seige. And the greatest of all tribulation is when God rejected them, broke them off from the branch as the Apostle Paul said, and poured out His wrath upon them.

God Bless

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

.....

Those are not my words, nor that of any scholar. Those are the Words or our Lord when talking about the coming vengence of God upon Jerusalem. The Words of our Lord were fulfilled when the Roman armies advanced against the city and leveled it. It was not only its destruction, but also the evilness of the wicked Jews and what they did to one another within the city while under seige. And the greatest of all tribulation is when God rejected them, broke them off from the branch as the Apostle Paul said, and poured out His wrath upon them.

God Bless

This whole comment is a common, yet skewed understanding of God's plan for both His chosen nation Israel and the Bride for the Messiah. It would be too hard to tease apart all the various threads and where there is falseness (I don't know of a nicer way of putting it). I don't want to assume but it seems this comment shows a replacement theology bent. Has Israel been completely rejected permanently?

It's obvious but it needs to always be reminded that the entire purpose of the 70 Weeks was :[Dan 9:24 LSB] 24 "... for your people and for your holy city,...". Obviously the Jewish people; God's chosen nation.

Yes, they've been blinded and set aside as a people but Paul is very clear about the purpose during this age. [Rom 11:22-24 LSB] 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they [Jewish nation] also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree?

We have to be very careful in confusing the plan for Israel with the plan for the Bride. Two different paths. Two different histories.

 

[Joe]

This whole comment is a common, yet skewed understanding of God's plan for both His chosen nation Israel and the Bride for the Messiah. It would be too hard to tease apart all the various threads and where there is falseness (I don't know of a nicer way of putting it). I don't want to assume but it seems this comment shows a replacement theology bent. Has Israel been completely rejected permanently?

It's obvious but it needs to always be reminded that the entire purpose of the 70 Weeks was :[Dan 9:24 LSB] 24 "... for your people and for your holy city,...". Obviously the Jewish people; God's chosen nation.

Yes, they've been blinded and set aside as a people but Paul is very clear about the purpose during this age. [Rom 11:22-24 LSB] 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they [Jewish nation] also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural [branches] be grafted into their own olive tree?

We have to be very careful in confusing the plan for Israel with the plan for the Bride. Two different paths. Two different histories.

I am not one who holds to replacement theology. I singled out the rejection of the Jewish people to drive home the point of why the tribulation of Jerusalem was what our Lord said was a "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".

No worries though; I know Israel has not been rejected permanently.

My posts are lengthy enough. If I try to cover all the bases they would be wordier.

You can ask me to clarify before making an assumption. I don't mind

God Bless

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I am not one who holds to replacement theology. I singled out the rejection of the Jewish people to drive home the point of why the tribulation of Jerusalem was what our Lord said was a "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".

No worries though; I know Israel has not been rejected permanently.

My posts are lengthy enough. If I try to cover all the bases they would be wordier.

You can ask me to clarify before making an assumption. I don't mind

God Bless

I'm not sure how you see the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem as the "great tribulation" which will never be exceeded. As bad as it was - and it was bad- it pales in comparison to what is prophesied in Zechariah.
[Zec 13:8-9 LSB] 8 "And it will be in all the land," Declares Yahweh, "That two parts in it will be cut off [and] breathe their last; But the third will be left in it. 9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire And refine them as silver is refined And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'Yahweh is my God.'"

At no time in the history of the Jewish people have there ever been 2/3 killed. Never happened yet. The upcoming loss of life will truly be horrific.

 

[Joe]

I'm not sure how you see the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem as the "great tribulation" which will never be exceeded.:, As bad as it was - and it was bad- it pales in comparison to what is prophesied in Zechariah.
[Zec 13:8-9 LSB] 8 "And it will be in all the land," Declares Yahweh, "That two parts in it will be cut off [and] breathe their last; But the third will be left in it. 9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire And refine them as silver is refined And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'Yahweh is my God.'"

At no time in the history of the Jewish people have there ever been 2/3 killed. Never happened yet. The upcoming loss of life will truly be horrific.

I explained how I understand "the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem as the "great tribulation" which will never be exceeded". The Lord said it was, so it is.

The Lord Himself said about the vengeance of God upon Jerusalem, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

No matter how we qualify great tribulation, such as the holocaust, nothing can compare to God's anger against the stiff-necked rebellious unbelieving Jewish people who were given the true revelation of God and His promises, only to bear false witness against His Son and murder Him by using the idolatrous Gentiles.

(Mat 22:2-7) "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come. Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

"And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
(Mat 21:35-44)

(Luke 21:20) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

(Mat 24:15-21) “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27,12:11) , standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."

There is zero doubt that our Lord was speaking about the Roman Armies advancing against Jerusalem, and for the people to flee into the mountains, which they did, "For then will there be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".

So let me ask you, who was the Lord talking to in the recorded conversation? Was He talking directly to the disciples and what they should expect to see happen, or was He talking to someone else? The Lord used "when you see" in his face to face conversation to the disciples. How do you interpret "when you see" after they asked Him questions and He began answering? I think we both know the answer to the question. So why do you doubt the Lord and rely on human wisdom instead of His Word?

God was enraged with the wicked unbelieving Jewish people. He brought His armies against them and burned down their city. He also took away His Kingdom from them and gave it to a people who will bear its fruit. Just as our Lord told them in parables. And it happened in 70AD.

Curious, how many Jewish people were alive in 70AD?

God Bless

 

[Diserner]

Pales in comparison to the Holocaust.

Really disrespectful.

 

[Joe]

Pales in comparison to the Holocaust.

Really disrespectful.

There was a time that your comments had substance. I miss those times. It seems you only take pot shots any more.

God Bless

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I explained how I understand "the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem as the "great tribulation" which will never be exceeded". You simply rejected it. The Lord said it was, so it is. You even assumed I was referring to the replacement theory in my explanation, which I wasn't.

The Lord Himself said about the vengeance of God upon Jerusalem, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

No matter how we qualify great tribulation, such as the holocaust, nothing can compare to God's anger against the stiff-necked rebellious unbelieving Jewish people who were given the true revelation of God and His promises, only to bear false witness against His Son and murder Him by using the idolatrous Gentiles.

(Mat 22:2-7) "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come. Again, he sent other servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ But they paid no attention and went away, one to his field, another to his business. The rest seized his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.

"And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
(Mat 21:35-44)

(Luke 21:20) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."

(Mat 24:15-21) “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Dan 9:27,12:11) , standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."

There is zero doubt that our Lord was speaking about the Roman Armies advancing against Jerusalem, and for the people to flee into the mountains, which they did, "For then will there be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".

So let me ask you, who was the Lord talking to in the recorded conversation? Was He talking directly to the disciples and what they should expect to see happen, or was He talking to someone else? The Lord used "when you see" in his face to face conversation to the disciples. How do you interpret "when you see" after they asked Him questions and He began answering? I think we both know the answer to the question. So why do you doubt the Lord and rely on human wisdom instead of His Word?

God was enraged with the wicked unbelieving Jewish people. He brought His armies against them and burned down their city. He also took away His Kingdom from them and gave it to a people who will bear its fruit. Just as our Lord told them in parables. And it happened in 70AD.

Curious, how many Jewish people were alive in 70AD?

God Bless

You can keep quoting verses and keep claiming Jesus said so, but if you keep misapplying those verses to a false understanding of historical facts, it doesn't mean you are correct.
There was no abomination of desolation in the temple in 70 AD. As I said before, Josephus records the temple was burnt down. Nothing was set up in the temple to desecrate it while it was still functioning. Once it was burnt, sacrifices ceased. You can not desecrate a non-functioning temple after it's already burnt and destroyed.
You totally ignored the actual predicted numbers that Zechariah includes in his prophecy of the last days. How do we know it's still to happen? Zech 13:4 "that day". Short hand the prophets use to describe the Day of the Lord. And like I said at no time have 2/3 of the Jewish people ever been decimated. Never happened.
During the 70 AD era, more Jews lived outside of Judah as the "exiles" than lived in their homeland. That's entirely why Jesus told his disciples to go to the 12 tribes to spread the Good News.
Even Mark 13:10 adds a detail of this timeline. [Mar 13:10 LSB] 10 "And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations.
Was the gospel proclaimed to all nations by 70 AD? Hardly.
And obviously, the sun hasn't darkened and moon darkened, and stars falling from the sky and Jesus has not come back in the clouds.
It's really hard to make the case that all of this has been fulfilled by 70 AD.

 

[Rockson]

Just to confirm, do you agree the abomination of desolation as recorded in Matthew 24 is the Roman armies that Luke records from the same conversation in Luke 21?

I wonder if it's a dual prophecy in a sense. One for the 1st Century and one for the end of time. Yes armies surrounded Jerusalem and brought judgement upon the people....and threw down the temple blocks as Jesus said.....but there is not mentioning of this happening below,

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "..., and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” NKJV

So where do we see that in the Titus invasion of 70 AD or there about? Sure they destroyed the temple history doesn't record they ever sought to establish that as a place the man of sin would receive any type of reverence.

Then there is this. Dan. 9:27 “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;"

So Jesus confirms a covenant for a 7 year period.....what about the years before Jesus started his ministry....Israel was without a covenant? Let's read on,

"...but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.”

So according to your belief going through and up to the middle of the week he was establishing the Old Covenant which you would say he made an agreement to make valid of from the start? But this covenant was always established before Jesus started his ministry. So why the need to make a 7 year covenant?

So I don't know exactly what I believe about the 7 year idea as put forth by partial or full preterist. I tend to believe not everybody is right when they talk about this and not everybody is wrong. There can be a middle ground option in maybe understanding about the last 7 years. It's a thing at least for me I need to keep studying out but one thing for certain I know why Jesus came and what was accomplished. That's the main thing.

 

[e v e]

every word of scripture applies to each soul...and is not some dusty history......

the lawless one is modern christianity beliefs (which follow Adam and not God) and its KJV...
its idol is this fleshbody.

and this is why there was captivity and the same lawless murdered Christ.
Going on since the start.