The abomination of desolation

[Joe]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 both give us details of the same conversation our Lord had with the disciples about the destruction of the temple and the end of the Hebrew dispensation. It was not directed towards us in the future. It was directed at the Jews of their day and was consummated when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem.

Both Matthew and Luke document the beginning of the conversation.

• (Matthew) "Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Mat 24:1-3)
• (Luke) "And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” (Luk 21:5-7)

As the conversation continues, Jesus is recorded by Matthew as using the term "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel", and Luke documents his statement as, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

• (Matthew) “So, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak." (Mat 24:15-18)
• (Luke) “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luk 21:20-22)

We know the abomination that causes desolation is the Roman army that did indeed desolate Jerusalem, as prophesied by Jesus and the prophet Daniel. We also understand that even though Luke did not use the same vernacular as Matthew, they both were talking about the same conversation and event. Luke wrote, "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Matthew wrote, "when you see the abomination of desolation...standing in the holy place."

In Matthew's account, Jesus specifically mentioned, "the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel."

There are two direct mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel (Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11), and one indirect by saying on the wings of abominations shall be one who desolates (Dan 9:27).

The mention in Dan 11:31 is not in correlation with what Jesus stated, which we know happened in 66-70 AD. It is when Antiochus IV Epiphanes was returning to Syria after his campaign against Egypt and heard the Jews were celebrating a rumor that he had died, so in rage he enters Jerusalem, killing 80,000 and taking others as slaves, and desecrates the temple.

The other two mentions of the abomination of desolation in Daniel are in correlation with what Jesus stated.

"And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:27B)

"And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." (Dan 12:11)

The Roman armies under Cestius entered the outskirts of Jerusalem in late 66 AD. This began the clock for 1290 days between the Roman armies that make desolate the city of Jerusalem and the end of the regular burnt offering that ceased to be offered mid-70AD. (Josephus Wars, II, 19:4, Wars, VI, 2:1)

All the prophecies in Daniel about the abomination of desolation have already taken place. Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 prophecy about the same abomination of desolation event in different settings that tell of the one and same event.

Biblically, we are not expecting another temple or abomination that makes desolation. "The shattering of the power of the holy people (Jewish people)", in accordance with the prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled in 70 AD. As told to Daniel, "Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand." (Dan 12:10)

In 70 AD the Words of our Lord came true, "There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”, and "The shattering of the power of the holy people (Jewish people)" happened as prophesied.

God Bless

 

[Diserner]

Not a fan of Full Preterism.

The temple is not a physical temple, it is the human heart—this is where sacrifices of worship to God will cease and abominations will be set up.

Christ specifically made a point of letting us know what he said to them he said to all—all people of all time.

And that no time on earth will be like it before or after.

The holocaust alone was worse than that time.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't remember reading about that in the history books.

Sometimes prophecy has multiple fulfillments where one is a milder type of another yet to come. Having said that, I have my doubts that there will be a third temple, which many people think is necessary for Daniel 9,11,12 and Matthew 24 to come true in the future.

 

[DavP]

Yeah, it's just wishful thinking by some, that want to make Christ's Olivet discourse for the 'end' of this world just go away, as if it were all fulfilled in past history when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Bible Chapters are parallels to the SEALS of Revelation 6. And Christ's Book of Revelation was given to His Church through Apostle John about the SIGNS of the END of this present world leading up to Christ's future return.

Lord Jesus Christ in His Olivet discourse of those Bible chapters was giving the 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world leading up to His future return to gather His saints.

The "abomination of desolation" event that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is about the final Antichrist-false Messiah that He specifically warned that is coming at the end of this world, and is the same "man of sin" that Apostle Paul warned of in 2 Thess.2 that is to come first before Jesus returns. Even Apostle John in Rev.13:11 forward with the "another beast" warned those in Christ about that coming false one that will work great signs, wonders, and rain fire down from heaven in the sight of men.

And like I said in another thread, who has come working great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men, proclaiming to be God, and that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect? Who has EVER done that in past history? Answer: NONE!

Thus those in Christ STILL LOOK for that coming "another beast" false-Christ that will do those things towards the end of this world prior to Christ's future return.

 

[DavP]

So what is... the "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus forewarned His Church about in His Olivet discourse?

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

By Lord Jesus' mention of when those in Jerusalem 'see' the "abomination of desolation" IDOL setup there in Jerusalem, then for His servants, get out of that area. And per Luke 21, He said those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when that happens. That abomination IDOL being placed in Jerusalem is what will kick off the coming time of "great tribulation".

The LORD already gave us a historical blueprint of that "abomination of desolation", back in 165-170 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes who conquered Jerusalem with an army, ended the daily sacrifices of the Jews, and went inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem and sacrificed swine upon an altar, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then setup an IDOL abomination to Zeus on an altar in that temple, and then demanded all to bow to that IDOL, or be killed. (this per the Jewish historian Josephus)

That Daniel blueprint Scripture, which also serves for the 'end' with the final Antichrist setting up the "image of the beast" of Rev.13, is about the Daniel 11 Scripture of the "vile person" who comes to power in Jerusalem using 'peace', and does what Antiochus did with placing an "abomination of desolation" idol in a future new Jewish temple in today's Jerusalem. Today's orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today already have the materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem, even with the conerstone already cut. They also have the required temple worship artifacts re-made and ready. So the time of the very end is very... close today.

 

[Joe]

Not a fan of Full Preterism.

The temple is not a physical temple, it is the human heart—this is where sacrifices of worship to God will cease and abominations will be set up.

Christ specifically made a point of letting us know what he said to them he said to all—all people of all time.

And that no time on earth will be like it before or after.

The holocaust alone was worse than that time.

I’m not a fan of Preterism either, but I don't throw the baby out with the bath water either.

My point concerns the prophecies with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD, which is God's judgment upon the unbelieving Jewish people.

The total destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem happened as foretold both by Daniel and the Lord.

Matthew records the Lord saying, "when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place", and Luke records the same conversation as "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

And without doubt, as history proves God's Word is true, the prophecies of Daniel and the Lord were fulfilled when the Roman armies advanced upon Jerusalem.

In futurism the temple must be rebuilt with full fledged OT sacrifices in order for that late false theory to pan out. In futurism no prophecies have been fulfilled; therefore, God is not proved by the real historical events He announced before they happened. But, as the Word declares, "Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar". The event that Daniel and our Lord foretold did happen as one of the greatest historical events to be prophesied. Our Lord also told the Jewish people the parable of the tenants as recorded in Matt 21, and the parable of the wedding feast in Matt 22. History has proven our Lord to be a true Prophet of God; the One Moses foretold the Jewish people about.

There are no other biblical references to yet another abomination of desolation that is to happen. No one should think a building made by hands is considered a temple of God after the coming of our Lord with the Kingdom of God.

What is the temple of God? A building made by the hands of man or the building that God made and sanctified by the death of His Son and the filling of His Spirit? Will God consider a building made by the hands of unbelieving Jewish people offering sacrifices again as His temple? Oh, no, that is not a temple of God, but a temple of rebellious unbelief.

The abomination that makes desolate is the Roman army that destroyed the temple, not leaving one stone upon another, and leveling Jerusalem as it was the time for God's vengeance, and for the prophetic words of scripture to be fulfilled.

“And when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you will know that the time of its destruction has arrived. Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. Those in Jerusalem must get out, and those out in the country should not return to the city. For those will be days of God’s vengeance, and the prophetic words of the Scriptures will be fulfilled. "(Luk 21:20-22)

God Bless

 

[dwight92070]

So what is... the "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus forewarned His Church about in His Olivet discourse?

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

By Lord Jesus' mention of when those in Jerusalem 'see' the "abomination of desolation" IDOL setup there in Jerusalem, then for His servants, get out of that area. And per Luke 21, He said those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when that happens. That abomination IDOL being placed in Jerusalem is what will kick off the coming time of "great tribulation".

The LORD already gave us a historical blueprint of that "abomination of desolation", back in 165-170 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes who conquered Jerusalem with an army, ended the daily sacrifices of the Jews, and went inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem and sacrificed swine upon an altar, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then setup an IDOL abomination to Zeus on an altar in that temple, and then demanded all to bow to that IDOL, or be killed. (this per the Jewish historian Josephus)

That Daniel blueprint Scripture, which also serves for the 'end' with the final Antichrist setting up the "image of the beast" of Rev.13, is about the Daniel 11 Scripture of the "vile person" who comes to power in Jerusalem using 'peace', and does what Antiochus did with placing an "abomination of desolation" idol in a future new Jewish temple in today's Jerusalem. Today's orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today already have the materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem, even with the conerstone already cut. They also have the required temple worship artifacts re-made and ready. So the time of the very end is very... close today.

I don't think so. I think the abomination of desolation is clearly stated in Luke 21:20 -"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - that is the abomination of desolation, because the very next verse instructs the people to flee to the mountains, just as they were instructed in Matthew and Mark, after seeing the abomination of desolation.
So it's about 70 A.D. when the Romans surrounded and soon destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and massacred the Jewish people. It's not future. Further evidence of that is in Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Both Mark and Luke say the same thing.

 

[Joe]

I don't think so. I think the abomination of desolation is clearly stated in Luke 21:20 -"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - that is the abomination of desolation, because the very next verse instructs the people to flee to the mountains, just as they were instructed in Matthew and Mark, after seeing the abomination of desolation.
So it's about 70 A.D. when the Romans surrounded and soon destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and massacred the Jewish people. It's not future. Further evidence of that is in Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Both Mark and Luke say the same thing.

Yes, and amen!

 

[DavP]

I don't think so. I think the abomination of desolation is clearly stated in Luke 21:20 -"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - that is the abomination of desolation, because the very next verse instructs the people to flee to the mountains, just as they were instructed in Matthew and Mark, after seeing the abomination of desolation.
So it's about 70 A.D. when the Romans surrounded and soon destroyed Jerusalem and the temple and massacred the Jewish people. It's not future. Further evidence of that is in Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Both Mark and Luke say the same thing.

Lord Jesus did not mention the "abomination of desolation" idol in the Luke 21 version of His Olive discourse. He only mentioned it in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

It is about this event written in the Book of Daniel, which is where Lord Jesus was quoting from...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV


That "abomination of desolation" is about the placing of an IDOL in a temple in Jerusalem, not armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The event of Luke 21:20 with the armies surrounding Jerusalem is about the very, very end, immediately PRIOR to Christ's coming to execute the "days of vengeance"...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Have you not understood what event is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world when those armies finally come to try and destroy the lands of Israel? That 'desolation' idea is different; the "abomination of desolation" IDOL will have been setup in the temple previously by about 1260 days. It is to be placed inside the temple at the mid-point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years.


Now I'm not going to spoon-feed you so you can understand those Scriptures as written. You're free to believe whatever, believe it's all about Martians for all I care.

 

[Rockson]

Interesting thread. Not sure where I stand on everything about futurism, or the preterist position. When it comes to the passage about the abomination sitting in the temple...and flee to the mountains....seems clear it's talking about 70 AD. Is a good question though what about Jesus saying, a persecution like never before and never to see again....well there is what happened with the Nazi's in WW2.

More than that day. So what about that? Is it possible it's a dual prophesy one for that age and the same for ours? Some would insist that it has to be but I'd be cageful of insisting something has to be which is not actually clearly stated in scripture. But I have problems with the preterist view too.

I heard one well known Bible teacher, a partial preterist who has a teaching on line about the "Triublation Period" and about the last 70th week of Daniel. (a seven year period) He makes a case that it started at Jesus coming into ministry.

He stated the long gap of 2000 years and then the last week starts is no where found in scripture and the dispensationalists have dreamed that up. So the 70th weeks starts....Jesus is cut off in the middle of that week.....or he Jesus made the offering to cease because now he was the fulfillment.....but then this Bible teacher sought to incorporate 70 AD Jerusalem invaded as the end of the 70th week. He suggest some have said there could be a gap between 33 AD and 70 AD where the last half of the 7 years starts 3 years before 70 AD. I thought well how nice. It seemed they had made light of other's saying there was a gap and lo and behold at the end of his teaching he offers as a possibility there could be a gap. See what I mean. People who claim they've got it all figured out....well, it seems there's cracks in their arguments as well.

 

[Rockson]

A few more thoughts. Jesus spoke of the stones of the temple being thrown down. The disciples asked him, When would this take place and the signs of his coming. So he told them when the stones would be trown down (the temple) Notice he didn't given them the year. Today's Christians would say, "Now come on Lord give us the day and year and if you don't we'll go to some astronomy chart and figure out what dates certain comets will come by!

Surely they'll give us the date and we can do you tube videos all about it!" Nope Jesus left if some what of a mystery. But it seems that did happen in 70 AD. So I can agree the parts about the temple stones coming down and the armies did take place at that time..

..but Jesus took what they were asking were two things. The disciples may not have appreciated they would be two things but Jesus knew they would be. OK here's about the temple stones coming down...70 AD or about. But the the actual END things were another. Preterist agreements about the sun turned to darkness and the moon to blood suggesting those things happened before 70 AD I just can't buy although they try to assert it. And all the things in Revelations of 2/3of a population destroyed.....happened in the 1st century? In my opinion just no way.

 

[dwight92070]

Lord Jesus did not mention the "abomination of desolation" idol in the Luke 21 version of His Olive discourse. He only mentioned it in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
KJV

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
KJV

It is about this event written in the Book of Daniel, which is where Lord Jesus was quoting from...

Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV


That "abomination of desolation" is about the placing of an IDOL in a temple in Jerusalem, not armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The event of Luke 21:20 with the armies surrounding Jerusalem is about the very, very end, immediately PRIOR to Christ's coming to execute the "days of vengeance"...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Have you not understood what event is to happen on the LAST DAY of this world when those armies finally come to try and destroy the lands of Israel? That 'desolation' idea is different; the "abomination of desolation" IDOL will have been setup in the temple previously by about 1260 days. It is to be placed inside the temple at the mid-point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years.


Now I'm not going to spoon-feed you so you can understand those Scriptures as written. You're free to believe whatever, believe it's all about Martians for all I care.

Apparently implying that I'm just a babe and you're the more mature one. Martians? I see, so you don't really care what other Christians believe? It's all about only what you believe? That's a real problem with many on this forum, I've noticed. They're not teachable. I have read and will read what you believe and I simply said that I disagree, and I will attempt to state the reasons that I disagree. If I find that my beliefs cannot be backed up by the scripture, then I will have to change my beliefs. For example, Doug Brents and I disagree, but we're willing to discuss the issues, and listen to each other. I find that those with dispensational beliefs are often so set on their belief being the only possible interpretation, that they get angry and intolerant with anyone who dares to challenge those beliefs. There's no need for insulting each other.

So where does the Bible say that there is a gap of time between the 69th week of Daniel and the 70th week? (in this case, over 2000 years) Also, can you show me a Bible verse that specifically mentions a 7 year tribulation?

In Revelation 1:1 we are told that Jesus revealed to John "the things which must soon take place;" Verse 3 says: "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near".
In Revelation 22:10, the angel said: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Now compare those verses in Revelation to these in Daniel:
Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; " ...
Then in Daniel 12:9 "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time."

So the angel told Daniel that his vision was not for his generation, but for the end time.
But Jesus told John in Revelation to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy, for the time WAS NEAR. So all of Revelation was especially important to his generation - apparently because most of it would be fulfilled very soon - and it appears that it was in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was surrounded and destroyed, which appears to be the abomination of desolation - Josephus says that 1,100,000 Jews were killed and hundreds of thousands more were taken as slaves or as victims for the Roman's bloody arenas.

We also see in Daniel 9:24 that Christ's atonement "sealed up vision and prophecy ..." Most of the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Christ's life, death and resurrection, even many that seem to be future.

 

[Joe]

Now I'm not going to spoon-feed you so you can understand those Scriptures as written. You're free to believe whatever, believe it's all about Martians for all I care.

Let you and I be spoon fed together from the Word of God.

Our Lord spoke many times to the unbelieving Jews of His day with confrontational truthfulness. He called them out for being more wicked than any other generation. They lived up to it by murdering the prophesied Messiah through unclean Gentiles. Our Lord also told them about the vengeance to come for their wickedness.

In this parable, the Lord revealed to the wicked Jews their future.
(Mat 22:4-7) "Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was enraged, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city."

In this verbal exchange, our Lord clearly told the wicked Jews of that generation they would be judged for all the evil they have done and will do.
(Mat 23:32-38) "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate."

In this verbal exchange, our Lord clearly told the wicked Jews of their condemnation.
(Mat 12:38-42) "Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here."

And here the Lord tells the wicked Jews they would be filled with unclean spirits for rejecting Him.
(Mat 12:43-45) “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

In his preaching to the Jewish people on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of the Lord was given, Peter tells the unbelieving Jews “Be saved from this perverse generation”.

No matter what we think, the dialogues of our Lord with the unbelieving murderous Jewish people of His day clearly prove that the days of God's vengeance was upon those people in that generation, just as foretold by Him as recorded in three of the Gospels, with Luke writing it in such a way readers could understand.

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written." (Luk 21:20-22)

In 70AD, Titus with the Roman armies (abomination of desolation) sent by God literally leveled the temple leaving not one stone upon another and completely destroyed Jerusalem, all as foretold by God through His prophets and Son, Jesus Christ.

"Let God be true, and every man a liar". All of what Jesus said would happen to the wicked Jews, the temple, and the city of Jerusalem happened even if man says it did not. Even to this day, "Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The day soon approaches when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, but it is not here yet, as Jerusalem is still trodden down by Gentiles.

What sits on top of Mt Zion, the place of the former temple? A mosque belonging to unbelieving Gentiles.
What is not there? The temple that was leveled in 70AD by Roman armies sent by God because He was enraged at the wicked unbelieving Jews.

God Bless

 

[Joe]

Apparently implying that I'm just a babe and you're the more mature one. Martians? I see, so you don't really care what other Christians believe? It's all about only what you believe? That's a real problem with many on this forum, I've noticed. They're not teachable. I have read and will read what you believe and I simply said that I disagree, and I will attempt to state the reasons that I disagree. If I find that my beliefs cannot be backed up by the scripture, then I will have to change my beliefs. For example, Doug Brents and I disagree, but we're willing to discuss the issues, and listen to each other. I find that those with dispensational beliefs are often so set on their belief being the only possible interpretation, that they get angry and intolerant with anyone who dares to challenge those beliefs. There's no need for insulting each other.

So where does the Bible say that there is a gap of time between the 69th week of Daniel and the 70th week? (in this case, over 2000 years) Also, can you show me a Bible verse that specifically mentions a 7 year tribulation?

In Revelation 1:1 we are told that Jesus revealed to John "the things which must soon take place;" Verse 3 says: "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near".
In Revelation 22:10, the angel said: "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Now compare those verses in Revelation to these in Daniel:
Daniel 12:4 "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; " ...
Then in Daniel 12:9 "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time."

So the angel told Daniel that his vision was not for his generation, but for the end time.
But Jesus told John in Revelation to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy, for the time WAS NEAR. So all of Revelation was especially important to his generation - apparently because most of it would be fulfilled very soon - and it appears that it was in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was surrounded and destroyed, which appears to be the abomination of desolation - Josephus says that 1,100,000 Jews were killed and hundreds of thousands more were taken as slaves or as victims for the Roman's bloody arenas.

We also see in Daniel 9:24 that Christ's atonement "sealed up vision and prophecy ..." Most of the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Christ's life, death and resurrection, even many that seem to be future.

Nice post, brother.

I am not sure how there can be a "gap" between the 69th week and the 70th when scripture informs us, "Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.". This means 69 weeks shall pass unto the Messiah. This only leaves one week left, the 70th in which all six things of the prophecy can be fulfilled.

Our Lord came at the beginning of the 70th week, since 69 weeks had passed, and scripture even states that after 69 weeks the Messiah shall be cutoff. What is after 69 but 70?

The most overlooked part about the 70 week prophecy is what is to be accomplished within them. "Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy."

These six things that were to happen within the 70 weeks did happen as foretold. There is nothing left of the six that need to be done. The 70 week prophecy has been fulfilled. It is really that simple. The Futurist theory is debunked by the fulfillment of the six things that this prophecy was decreed about.

God Bless

 

[dwight92070]

So what is... the "abomination of desolation" that Lord Jesus forewarned His Church about in His Olivet discourse?

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

By Lord Jesus' mention of when those in Jerusalem 'see' the "abomination of desolation" IDOL setup there in Jerusalem, then for His servants, get out of that area. And per Luke 21, He said those of His in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when that happens. That abomination IDOL being placed in Jerusalem is what will kick off the coming time of "great tribulation".

The LORD already gave us a historical blueprint of that "abomination of desolation", back in 165-170 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanes who conquered Jerusalem with an army, ended the daily sacrifices of the Jews, and went inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem and sacrificed swine upon an altar, spread its broth around inside the temple, and then setup an IDOL abomination to Zeus on an altar in that temple, and then demanded all to bow to that IDOL, or be killed. (this per the Jewish historian Josephus)

That Daniel blueprint Scripture, which also serves for the 'end' with the final Antichrist setting up the "image of the beast" of Rev.13, is about the Daniel 11 Scripture of the "vile person" who comes to power in Jerusalem using 'peace', and does what Antiochus did with placing an "abomination of desolation" idol in a future new Jewish temple in today's Jerusalem.Today's orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today already have the materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem, even with the conerstone already cut. They also have the required temple worship artifacts re-made and ready. So the time of the very end is very... close today.

I notice you add the words "IDOL setup" after "the abomination of desolation". The actual words in the verse, however, are: "standing in the holy place". The Roman army was standing in the Holy City, Jerusalem, preparing to desolate it, along with the Holy Temple and over one million Jews in 70 A.D.

Today's orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem today already have the materials ready to build their 3rd temple in Jerusalem, even with the conerstone already cut. They also have the required temple worship artifacts re-made and ready

I have literally heard this for decades, (yes, from Dispensationalists) but nobody has the actual evidence to verify it. I'm not saying they won't build it, but even if they do, that in itself will not affirm the dispensational view.

 

[dwight92070]

Nice post, brother.

I am not sure how there can be a "gap" between the 69th week and the 70th when scripture informs us, "Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.". This means 69 weeks shall pass unto the Messiah. This only leaves one week left, the 70th in which all six things of the prophecy can be fulfilled.

Our Lord came at the beginning of the 70th week, since 69 weeks had passed, and scripture even states that after 69 weeks the Messiah shall be cutoff. What is after 69 but 70?

The most overlooked part about the 70 week prophecy is what is to be accomplished within them. "Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy."

These six things that were to happen within the 70 weeks did happen as foretold. There is nothing left of the six that need to be done. The 70 week prophecy has been fulfilled. It is really that simple. The Futurist theory is debunked by the fulfillment of the six things that this prophecy was decreed about.

God Bless

That's refreshing - to see someone who actually interprets what the verses say, without adding 2000 year gaps, or "IDOLS set up", or other dispensational talking points!

Thank you bro.

 

[Joe]

Interesting thread. Not sure where I stand on everything about futurism, or the preterist position. When it comes to the passage about the abomination sitting in the temple...and flee to the mountains....seems clear it's talking about 70 AD. Is a good question though what about Jesus saying, a persecution like never before and never to see again....well there is what happened with the Nazi's in WW2.

More than that day. So what about that? Is it possible it's a dual prophesy one for that age and the same for ours? Some would insist that it has to be but I'd be cageful of insisting something has to be which is not actually clearly stated in scripture. But I have problems with the preterist view too.

I heard one well known Bible teacher, a partial preterist who has a teaching on line about the "Triublation Period" and about the last 70th week of Daniel. (a seven year period) He makes a case that it started at Jesus coming into ministry.

He stated the long gap of 2000 years and then the last week starts is no where found in scripture and the dispensationalists have dreamed that up. So the 70th weeks starts....Jesus is cut off in the middle of that week.....or he Jesus made the offering to cease because now he was the fulfillment.....but then this Bible teacher sought to incorporate 70 AD Jerusalem invaded as the end of the 70th week. He suggest some have said there could be a gap between 33 AD and 70 AD where the last half of the 7 years starts 3 years before 70 AD. I thought well how nice. It seemed they had made light of other's saying there was a gap and lo and behold at the end of his teaching he offers as a possibility there could be a gap. See what I mean. People who claim they've got it all figured out....well, it seems there's cracks in their arguments as well.

Hi brother,

I am not a Futurist, even though I was trained that way since it was the predominate teaching in my earlier new life of Christ. I completely have walked away from that doctrine since it is not scriptural sound.

And I am not a full Preterist, though I may be considered a partial Preterist since some of the doctrine is scriptural acceptable to me.

I hold more of a Historist understanding for interpreting the scriptures.

This we know, the prophecy of the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. How can we know? Because the six things that were "determined" to occur within the 70 weeks have occurred.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Dan 9:24)

God Bless

 

[Diserner]

And I am not a full Preterist, though I may be considered a partial Preterist

What do you think is still future?

and to make an end of sins

Are all sins really ended?

 

[Joe]

What do you think is still future?

The coming of the Lord and the resurrection after the man of sin is revealed.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:14-17)

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2Th 2:3)

Are all sins really ended?

Brother, why did you ask this question? You know the answer. If your sin has not been ended, then you are still dead in your sins. But, thankfully because of God's love and mercy, the death of Jesus Christ has put an end to sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Heb 9:24-28)

"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Heb 1:3)

"For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin." (Heb 10:4-18)

"And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2Co 5:18-21,NLT)

I could basically quote every book of the NT for reference. Jesus died to permanently remove our sin and arose to give us eternal life.

God Bless

 

[Diserner]

Brother, why did you ask this question? You know the answer.

Because the Bible tells me to confess my sins and ask for forgiveness.

If sins really "ended" I would be in rebellion and unbelief concerning the declaration that sins are ended to do this.