Romans 9.

Please explain, thanks . You caught my attention:)

Remember Esau sold his birthright—but under Calvinism he has no birthright to sell. Nothing good was ever intended him. He was rejected for insincere repentance, not for being a vessel of wrath.

Although the "loved less" is not based on WORKS (of the Law), or WILLING (to fulfill that Law), I don't think these things are describing non-meritorious choices, a free decision to reject God.

The logic of this is explained here:

 
[Luke 14:26 NASB20] 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate[G3404] his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
Really? Do you hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters? Is that what Scripture is saying?
J.
 
Feel free to invite some Calvinists over here . :) even though they banned me in the other site I can still read the comments:).
I would be equally uncomfortable inviting a synergist over there as a monergist over here. “Hey, come be the mole in a game of WHACK-A-MOLE” is not the way to treat a “brother/sister in Christ”. ;)

I’m an IDIOT and volunteer for this. :cool:
(penance).
 
I would be equally uncomfortable inviting a synergist over there as a monergist over here. “Hey, come be the mole in a game of WHACK-A-MOLE” is not the way to treat a “brother/sister in Christ”. ;)

I’m an IDIOT and volunteer for this. :cool:
(penance).

I ain't scared bro.

Lion's den, baby.
 
Really? Do you hate your own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters? Is that what Scripture is saying?
J.
Do you have a translation of Luke 14:26 that actually says “loves less” instead of “hate”?
I am merely reporting the correct English (translated) word for the Greek (written) word for the Hebrew/Aramaic (spoken) word (which came out of Jesus mouth). If you want to rewrite Jesus’ words, be my guest … just leave me out of it.
 
I would be equally uncomfortable inviting a synergist over there as a monergist over here. “Hey, come be the mole in a game of WHACK-A-MOLE” is not the way to treat a “brother/sister in Christ”. ;)

I’m an IDIOT and volunteer for this. :cool:
(penance).
Thanks for the humor brother
 
Do you have a translation of Luke 14:26 that actually says “loves less” instead of “hate”?
I am merely reporting the correct English (translated) word for the Greek (written) word for the Hebrew/Aramaic (spoken) word (which came out of Jesus mouth). If you want to rewrite Jesus’ words, be my guest … just leave me out of it.
Some translations introduce the concept of "comparison" .. but they're newer.

Bible Hub list of different bible translations on the Luke verse.
 
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Do you have a translation of Luke 14:26 that actually says “loves less” instead of “hate”?
I am merely reporting the correct English (translated) word for the Greek (written) word for the Hebrew/Aramaic (spoken) word (which came out of Jesus mouth). If you want to rewrite Jesus’ words, be my guest … just leave me out of it.
New Living Translation
“If you want to be my disciple, you must, by comparison, hate everyone else—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

Contemporary English Version
You cannot be my disciple, unless you love me more than you love your father and mother, your wife and children, and your brothers and sisters. You cannot follow me unless you love me more than you love your own life.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples.

Good News Translation
"Those who come to me cannot be my disciples unless they love me more than they love father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and themselves as well.


World English Bible
“If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple.
 
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14:26)

He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. (Matthew 10:37)

The concept of comparison love/hate comes from comparing the parallel verses.

The more than aspect is translated more often in the Matthew verse, but implied in the Luke verse.

I tend to harmonize the two then assume the best about God.

The hatred of Esau was related to him always being put second.

When a person in your life is always put second, they assume as time passes that you hate them. This is not a foreign concept.

For example. You must have seen these prayer threads on other forums, people wondering why God does not love them because they never get what they want? And the people who praise God for getting what they want from prayer.

God loves both people, but it is easier for one person to believe it over the other due to the "being put second" concept.
 
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Do you have a translation of Luke 14:26 that actually says “loves less” instead of “hate”?
I am merely reporting the correct English (translated) word for the Greek (written) word for the Hebrew/Aramaic (spoken) word (which came out of Jesus mouth). If you want to rewrite Jesus’ words, be my guest … just leave me out of it.
So you are a Scholar?-or reckon to be as such? And who is rewriting and reinterpreting the Scriptures?

"hate his own father" This is a Hebrew idiom of comparison (cf. Gen. 29:31,33; Deut. 21:15; Mal. 1:2-3 [Rom. 9:13]; John 12:25).

It is obvious that this cannot be taken literally because of Jesus' statement of honoring your father and mother in Matt. 15:4, which reflects the Ten Commandments.

This section speaks of death to self (cf. Gal. 2:20) and earthly priorities. In the Near East commitment to family superceded every other commitment, but Jesus must become believers' first priority (cf. Luke 12:49-53; Matt. 10:34-39).

"even his own life" Jesus sets the pattern of ministry (cf. Luke 9:23; 17:33; 1 John 3:16).

"he cannot be My disciple" This point is emphasized in Luke 14:27 and 33. It is difficult to balance the grace of God so clearly demonstrated in the parable of the Great Banquet (Luke 14:15-24) with the radical call to a complete sacrifice of self in Luke 14:25-33. Both are true. Grace initiates and provides, but receivers must make a life-altering, priority choice! Followship (Luke 14:25) is not the same as discipleship. Just as in the parable of the soils, germination is not the same as fruit bearing!

14:27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross" This refers not to problems believers face, but to death itself (cf. Luke 9:23-26; Matt. 10:34-39; 16:24; Gal. 2:20). It was the custom in Palestine of the first century for condemned prisoners who were to be crucified to carry the cross beam to the place of crucifixion.

14:28-32 This speaks of the need to recognize the cost of followship! No quick decisions! The gospel is absolutely free, but it costs everything that we are and have (cf. Matt. 13:44-46). In light of this, western modern Christianity is a weak manifestation of "what's in it for me" cultural religion!

Modern western Christians have turned biblical faith into a weekly event, a place we park our car for a few hours instead of a 24 hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week relationship of service to Christ. We only give the leftovers of our busy lives and plans to Him. We worship and praise Him with peripherals and non-essentials. This is why we have such large, beautiful church buildings and elaborate organizations and programs and NO SPIRITUAL POWER, NO CHANGED LIVES, NO WHATEVER-IT-TAKES ATTITUDES!! God forgive us for cultural, peripheral, easy believism!

Man!-I would say Ol' Utley is spot on, beer, boep and boerewors is normative.


Just one additional thought, this emphasis on counting the cost of discipleship must also relate to the age one receives Christ. One must be old enough to

know the Scriptures-Do we know the Scriptures?
know that they violated them
understand the gospel--do we understand the gospel?
be able to access the "cost of discipleship"

If "decisions" are made too early they result in confused Christians or perpetual "pre-Christians"!

Luk 14:26 "If any man come to Me, and is
fonder of his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he is not able to be My disciple.

Luk 14:26 If someone comes to me, and does not hate [hyperbolically, in
comparison to Moshiach] his own Abba and Em (mother) and isha and yeladim and achim and achayot and in addition also his own life [in the Olam Hazeh], he is not able to be my [Moshiach’s] talmid.

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me, and does not
disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Gen 29:31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was
less loved, He opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.


We must not take his words with cold and unimaginative literalness. Eastern language is always as vivid as the human mind can make it. When Jesus tells us to hate our nearest and dearest, he does not mean that literally. He means that no love in life can compare with the love we must bear to him.
There are two suggestive truths within this passage.

(i) It is possible to be a follower of Jesus without being a disciple; to be a camp-follower without being a soldier of the king; to be a hanger-on in some great work without pulling one’s weight. Once someone was talking to a great scholar about a younger man. He said, "So and so tells me that he was one of year students." The teacher answered devastatingly, "He may have attended my lectures, but he was not one of my students." It is one of the supreme handicaps of the church that in it there are so many distant followers of Jesus and so few real disciples.

-If it is too much to read and ingest-let me know.
Johann
 
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So you are a Scholar?-or reckon to be as such? And who is rewriting and reinterpreting the Scriptures?

"hate his own father" This is a Hebrew idiom of comparison (cf. Gen. 29:31,33; Deut. 21:15; Mal. 1:2-3 [Rom. 9:13]; John 12:25).

It is obvious that this cannot be taken literally because of Jesus' statement of honoring your father and mother in Matt. 15:4, which reflects the Ten Commandments.

This section speaks of death to self (cf. Gal. 2:20) and earthly priorities. In the Near East commitment to family superceded every other commitment, but Jesus must become believers' first priority (cf. Luke 12:49-53; Matt. 10:34-39).

"even his own life" Jesus sets the pattern of ministry (cf. Luke 9:23; 17:33; 1 John 3:16).

"he cannot be My disciple" This point is emphasized in Luke 14:27 and 33. It is difficult to balance the grace of God so clearly demonstrated in the parable of the Great Banquet (Luke 14:15-24) with the radical call to a complete sacrifice of self in Luke 14:25-33. Both are true. Grace initiates and provides, but receivers must make a life-altering, priority choice! Followship (Luke 14:25) is not the same as discipleship. Just as in the parable of the soils, germination is not the same as fruit bearing!

14:27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross" This refers not to problems believers face, but to death itself (cf. Luke 9:23-26; Matt. 10:34-39; 16:24; Gal. 2:20). It was the custom in Palestine of the first century for condemned prisoners who were to be crucified to carry the cross beam to the place of crucifixion.

14:28-32 This speaks of the need to recognize the cost of followship! No quick decisions! The gospel is absolutely free, but it costs everything that we are and have (cf. Matt. 13:44-46). In light of this, western modern Christianity is a weak manifestation of "what's in it for me" cultural religion!

Modern western Christians have turned biblical faith into a weekly event, a place we park our car for a few hours instead of a 24 hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week relationship of service to Christ. We only give the leftovers of our busy lives and plans to Him. We worship and praise Him with peripherals and non-essentials. This is why we have such large, beautiful church buildings and elaborate organizations and programs and NO SPIRITUAL POWER, NO CHANGED LIVES, NO WHATEVER-IT-TAKES ATTITUDES!! God forgive us for cultural, peripheral, easy believism!

Just one additional thought, this emphasis on counting the cost of discipleship must also relate to the age one receives Christ. One must be old enough to

know the Scriptures
know that they violated them
understand the gospel
be able to access the "cost of discipleship"

If "decisions" are made too early they result in confused Christians or perpetual "pre-Christians"!

Luk 14:26 "If any man come to Me, and is
fonder of his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own soul also, he is not able to be My disciple.

Luk 14:26 If someone comes to me, and does not hate [hyperbolically, in
comparison to Moshiach] his own Abba and Em (mother) and isha and yeladim and achim and achayot and in addition also his own life [in the Olam Hazeh], he is not able to be my [Moshiach’s] talmid.

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me, and does not disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

We must not take his words with cold and unimaginative literalness. Eastern language is always as vivid as the human mind can make it. When Jesus tells us to hate our nearest and dearest, he does not mean that literally. He means that no love in life can compare with the love we must bear to him.
There are two suggestive truths within this passage.

(i) It is possible to be a follower of Jesus without being a disciple; to be a camp-follower without being a soldier of the king; to be a hanger-on in some great work without pulling one’s weight. Once someone was talking to a great scholar about a younger man. He said, "So and so tells me that he was one of year students." The teacher answered devastatingly, "He may have attended my lectures, but he was not one of my students." It is one of the supreme handicaps of the church that in it there are so many distant followers of Jesus and so few real disciples.

-If it is too much to read and ingest-let me know.
Johann
Is some of this from William Barclay ?

 
Is some of this from William Barclay ?

Absolutely-I have three sources, Vincent-Robertson-Utley and use Barclay for his insight into Jewish cultures , customs and manners.
Besides that I have numerous sources on rabbinical writings-ancient and modern.

Was that a "stab" me for "stabbing" you?
Johann.
 
Absolutely-I have three sources, Vincent-Robertson-Utley and use Barclay for his insight into Jewish cultures , customs and manners.
Besides that I have numerous sources on rabbinical writings-ancient and modern.

Was that a "stab" me for "stabbing" you?
Johann.
Not a stab just a question :)
 
Not a stab just a question :)
Just checking brother-I don't need to go online since I have all these sources on my e-sword-but with Utley I will give credit-since through his ministry and his team I hold myself accountable-wouldn't want to misrepresent the D'var of YHVH and take the glory for myself or boast myself to be somewhat that I ain't.
4:34 AM-Morning.

Shalom
Johann.
 
So you are a Scholar?-or reckon to be as such? And who is rewriting and reinterpreting the Scriptures?
I own a study Bible and was always impressed by the LINE across the page that divided what GOD said (above the line) from men’s commentary and exegesis on what God said (below the line). This preserved the fact that only the words ABOVE THE LINE are infallible; the words below the line are mere human opinion (even if good opinions).

We live in a world where people want to blend the words above the line with the words below the line as both being equal. I merely fight to defend the line. Only GOD’S WORDS are GOD’S WORDS. Our opinions are not scripture.

So the word in Luke IS what it IS. The commentary on “idioms” is useful and important (and probably correct), but it is also “below the line” commentary and not infallible. Preserving the line was my only goal.
 
I own a study Bible and was always impressed by the LINE across the page that divided what GOD said (above the line) from men’s commentary and exegesis on what God said (below the line). This preserved the fact that only the words ABOVE THE LINE are infallible; the words below the line are mere human opinion (even if good opinions).

We live in a world where people want to blend the words above the line with the words below the line as both being equal. I merely fight to defend the line. Only GOD’S WORDS are GOD’S WORDS. Our opinions are not scripture.

So the word in Luke IS what it IS. The commentary on “idioms” is useful and important (and probably correct), but it is also “below the line” commentary and not infallible. Preserving the line was my only goal.
Well-good luck to you-I am not dogmatic or above correction and for ME personally, I find Dr. Utley the best secondary source there is on this planet-and my knowledge have increased in leaps and bounds with the aid of the indwelling Holy Spirit-to discern between error and truth.
An aside-Utley is not a "commentary"
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
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