Romans 9.

Johann

Johann

Well-known member

ROMANS 9

www.freebiblecommentary.org
CONTEXTUAL INSIGHTS TO CHAPTER ROMANS 9

What a drastic change of attitude occurs between Romans 8 and Romans 9.

Romans 9 is one of the strongest NT passages on God's sovereignty (i.e., the others being, Rom. 8:28-30; Eph. 1:3-14), while Romans 10 states human's freewill clearly and repeatedly
"everyone," Rom. 9:4
"whosoever," Rom. 9:11,13
"all" Rom. 9:12 (twice)

 Paul never tries to reconcile this theological tension. They are both true! Most Bible doctrines are presented in paradoxical or dialectical pairs. Most systems of theology are logical, but proof-text only one aspect of biblical truth. Both Augustinianism and Calvinism versus semi-Pelagianism and Arminianism have elements of truth and error.

Biblical tension between doctrines is preferable to a proof-texted, dogmatic, rational, theological system that forces the Bible onto a preconceived interpretive grid!


Romans 9:30-33 is a summary of Romans 9 and the theme of Romans 10.

Notice how much Paul uses OT texts to establish his argument. This presupposes a Jewish readership in Rome.
Rom. 9:7 ‒ Gen. 21:12
Rom. 9:9 ‒ Gen. 18:10,14
Rom. 9:12 ‒ Gen. 25:32
Rom. 9:13 ‒ Mal. 1:2-3
Rom. 9:15 ‒ Exod. 33:19
Rom. 9:17 ‒ Exod. 9:16
Rom. 9:25 ‒ Hosea 2:23
Rom. 9:26 ‒ Hosea 1:10
Rom. 9:27 ‒ Isa. 10:22
Rom. 9:28 ‒ Isa. 10:23
Rom. 9:29 ‒ Isa. 1:9
Rom. 9:33 ‒ Isa. 28:16 and 8:14
There are many more OT quotes in Romans 10 and 11!

Paul uses rabbinical hermeneutics to make his theological points. Please see full note at Rom. 9:33 and

SPECIAL TOPIC: RABBINICAL HERMENEUTICAL TECHNIQUES

RABBINICAL HERMENEUTICAL TECHNIQUES -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).
www.freebiblecommentary.org

For those who are interested in diving deep in Scriptures.



https://soundcloud.com/myrtlefieldhouse%2F1-gods-indefectible-purpose
J.
 
Last edited:
Yes and we know he is quoting from Malachi and Hosea where nations are in context . Israel snd the surrounding pagan nations representing Jacob/ Esau .
 
civic said:
Yes and we know he is quoting from Malachi and Hosea where nations are in context . Israel snd the surrounding pagan nations representing Jacob/ Esau .
Click to expand...
Rom. 9:7 ‒ Gen. 21:12
Rom. 9:9 ‒ Gen. 18:10,14
Rom. 9:12 ‒ Gen. 25:32
Rom. 9:13 ‒ Mal. 1:2-3
Rom. 9:15 ‒ Exod. 33:19
Rom. 9:17 ‒ Exod. 9:16
Rom. 9:25 ‒ Hosea 2:23
Rom. 9:26 ‒ Hosea 1:10
Rom. 9:27 ‒ Isa. 10:22
Rom. 9:28 ‒ Isa. 10:23
Rom. 9:29 ‒ Isa. 1:9
Rom. 9:33 ‒ Isa. 28:16 and 8:14
There are many more OT quotes in Romans 10 and 11!


It is up to the members to read the Scripture quotations for themselves brother.
Shalom
Johann.
 
Johann said:
Rom. 9:7 ‒ Gen. 21:12
Rom. 9:9 ‒ Gen. 18:10,14
Rom. 9:12 ‒ Gen. 25:32
Rom. 9:13 ‒ Mal. 1:2-3
Rom. 9:15 ‒ Exod. 33:19
Rom. 9:17 ‒ Exod. 9:16
Rom. 9:25 ‒ Hosea 2:23
Rom. 9:26 ‒ Hosea 1:10
Rom. 9:27 ‒ Isa. 10:22
Rom. 9:28 ‒ Isa. 10:23
Rom. 9:29 ‒ Isa. 1:9
Rom. 9:33 ‒ Isa. 28:16 and 8:14
There are many more OT quotes in Romans 10 and 11!


It is up to the members to read the Scripture quotations for themselves brother.
Shalom
Johann.
Click to expand...
Its always been about nations from the beginning as the promise.

Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

Genesis 25:23
and He declared to her: "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger."

Genesis 27:29
May peoples serve you and nations bow down to you. May you be the master of your brothers, and may the sons of your mother bow down to you. May those who curse you be cursed, and those who bless you be blessed."
 
Malachi 1- the nations

A prophecy: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.[a]

2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”


4 Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord—even beyond the borders of Israel!’

6 “A son honors his father, and a slave his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the Lord Almighty.

“It is you priests who show contempt for my name.

“But you ask, ‘How have we shown contempt for your name?’


7 “By offering defiled food on my altar.

“But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’

“By saying that the Lord’s table is contemptible. 8 When you offer blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice lame or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?” says the Lord Almighty.


9 “Now plead with God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?”—says the Lord Almighty.


10 “Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the Lord Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands. 11 My name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to me, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the Lord Almighty.
 
Romans 9- the nations

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”


10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
 
civic said:
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Click to expand...
In what way did God "hate" Esau? Is it the hatred as expressed in our modern world? The answer is in the video clip.

The Grievous State of the Majority of Paul’s Kinsmen According to the Flesh in Paul’s Day 9:1–3
II. The Majesty and Effectiveness of the Unique Role Given by God’s Sovereign Choice to Israel, the Nation Physically Descended from Abraham 9:4–5
a. The adoption as sons: cf. Deuteronomy 32:19–20.
b. The GLORY: i.e. the presence of God.
c. The covenants: Genesis 15:17; Exodus 24:7–8; Jeremiah 31:31–34.
d. The giving of the law.
e. The service of God.
f. The promises.
g. The fathers.
h. The nation through which the Messiah should come, physically, who is simultaneously ‘over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.’

III. The Rejection of the Messiah by the Majority of Paul’s Contemporary Israelites Does Not Mean That God’s Word and Purpose for Israel Have Come to Nothing 9:6
a. Isaiah prophesied that when God judged Israel, he would nevertheless leave a remnant (9:27–29, cf. Isa 10:22).

b. There is such a remnant now (11:1–6).

c. The gifts and calling of God regarding Israel are without repentance i.e. God has not, and will not, change his mind (11:29).

d. Therefore one day all Israel shall be saved (11:26).
IV. The Fact That Not All Abraham’s Physical Descendants Are Chosen by God to

Carry Israel’s Unique Witness to God, is Illustrated by: 9:7–13
a. The Case of Isaac, not Ishmael 9:7–9
— Ishmael was born out of Abraham’s own initiative and attempt to fulfil God’s promise by his own power;
— Isaac was born by God’s own miraculous power in fulfilment of his promise.
b. The Case of Jacob and Esau 9:10–13
— The qualification of Jacob (Israel, Israelites), not Esau (Edomites), as the nation to carry the unique witness to God, was not based on his works, good or bad.
— If God chose only sinlessly perfect people to be his witnesses, he would never have any.
V. God’s Mercy On, and Perseverance With, Israel in Spite of Her Sins, and His Hardening of Pharaoh, Are Not Unjust nor Arbitrary 9:14–22
a. The Case of Pharaoh
— God foreknew that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exod 3:19; 7:3).
— But only at (9:12) is it said that the Lord hardened his heart.
— Pharaoh had demanded evidence. He was given abundant evidence. But when he rejected that evidence, God made him stand as a vessel of wrath.
b. The Case of Israel
— Israel’s frequent apostasies show her to be ‘of the same lump’ as Pharaoh.
— None has a claim on God’s mercy.
— God’s mercy on Israel arose out of his sovereign choice: ‘I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy’ (Exod 33:19).
— But it was not indiscriminate:
— — At Sinai: some were slain (Exod 32:27–28, 35); some were pardoned (Exod 33–34). Why so?
— — At Kadesh-Barnea (Num 14) a whole generation were sentenced to die in the desert. Only Joshua, Caleb, and those under twenty when they left Egypt were spared. Why so?
— — Later God repudiated the ten tribes of Israel and said ‘you are not my people’ (Hos 1:9), but spared Judah. Why so?
VI. Israel’s Restoration Must Be Totally by God’s Grace and Mercy 9:23–33
a. On the same terms as the Gentiles (9:24).
b. Many Gentiles in Paul’s day were justified by grace, through faith, and thus became vessels of mercy and glory (9:23, 30);
c. But Paul’s Jewish contemporaries mostly refused to become vessels of mercy and insisted on trying to earn salvation by works.
J.
 
Last edited:
civic said:
I will post my recent study on hate with Esau
Click to expand...
"but Esau I hated" This is a quote from Mal. 1:2-3. "Hate" is a Hebrew idiom of comparison.

It sounds harsh in English, but compare Gen. 29:31-33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 10:37-38; Luke 14:26; and John 12:25.

The anthropomorphic terms "love" and "hate" relate not to God's emotions towards these individuals, but His commitment to a Messianic line and promise. Jacob was the son of promise based on the prophecy of Gen. 25:23. Esau, in Mal. 1:2-3, referred to the nation of Edom (the descendant of Esau).

"There is no injustice with God, is there?" The grammar expects a "no" answer. How can God hold humans responsible if God's sovereignty is the deciding factor (cf. Rom. 9:19)? This is the mystery of election.

The key emphasis in this context is that God is free to do what He will with humanity (rebellious mankind), however, God's sovereignty is expressed in mercy (see note at Rom. 9:15), not raw power.

Again, it must be stated that this context is discussing corporate election for the purpose of universal redemption!

It must also be stated that God's sovereign choices are not based on foreknowledge of human's future choices and actions.

If this were true then ultimately individual's choices and actions and merits would be the basis of God's choices (cf. Rom. 9:16; 1 Pet. 1:2).

Behind this is the traditional Jewish view of prosperity to the righteous (cf. Deuteronomy 27-28; Job and Psalm 73). But, God chooses to bless the unworthy through faith (not performance, cf. Rom. 5:8). God knows all things but He has chosen to limit His choices

in mercy
in promise
There is a necessary human response, but it follows and ultimately confirms God's life changing elective choice!



Shalom
J.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Johann said:
In what way did God "hate" Esau? Is it the hatred as expressed in our modern world? The answer is in the video clip.

The Grievous State of the Majority of Paul’s Kinsmen According to the Flesh in Paul’s Day 9:1–3
II. The Majesty and Effectiveness of the Unique Role Given by God’s Sovereign Choice to Israel, the Nation Physically Descended from Abraham 9:4–5
a. The adoption as sons: cf. Deuteronomy 32:19–20.
b. The GLORY: i.e. the presence of God.
c. The covenants: Genesis 15:17; Exodus 24:7–8; Jeremiah 31:31–34.
d. The giving of the law.
e. The service of God.
f. The promises.
g. The fathers.
h. The nation through which the Messiah should come, physically, who is simultaneously ‘over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.’

III. The Rejection of the Messiah by the Majority of Paul’s Contemporary Israelites Does Not Mean That God’s Word and Purpose for Israel Have Come to Nothing 9:6
a. Isaiah prophesied that when God judged Israel, he would nevertheless leave a remnant (9:27–29, cf. Isa 10:22).

b. There is such a remnant now (11:1–6).

c. The gifts and calling of God regarding Israel are without repentance i.e. God has not, and will not, change his mind (11:29).

d. Therefore one day all Israel shall be saved (11:26).
IV. The Fact That Not All Abraham’s Physical Descendants Are Chosen by God to

Carry Israel’s Unique Witness to God, is Illustrated by: 9:7–13
a. The Case of Isaac, not Ishmael 9:7–9
— Ishmael was born out of Abraham’s own initiative and attempt to fulfil God’s promise by his own power;
— Isaac was born by God’s own miraculous power in fulfilment of his promise.
b. The Case of Jacob and Esau 9:10–13
— The qualification of Jacob (Israel, Israelites), not Esau (Edomites), as the nation to carry the unique witness to God, was not based on his works, good or bad.
— If God chose only sinlessly perfect people to be his witnesses, he would never have any.
V. God’s Mercy On, and Perseverance With, Israel in Spite of Her Sins, and His Hardening of Pharaoh, Are Not Unjust nor Arbitrary 9:14–22
a. The Case of Pharaoh
— God foreknew that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exod 3:19; 7:3).
— But only at (9:12) is it said that the Lord hardened his heart.
— Pharaoh had demanded evidence. He was given abundant evidence. But when he rejected that evidence, God made him stand as a vessel of wrath.
b. The Case of Israel
— Israel’s frequent apostasies show her to be ‘of the same lump’ as Pharaoh.
— None has a claim on God’s mercy.
— God’s mercy on Israel arose out of his sovereign choice: ‘I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy’ (Exod 33:19).
— But it was not indiscriminate:
— — At Sinai: some were slain (Exod 32:27–28, 35); some were pardoned (Exod 33–34). Why so?
— — At Kadesh-Barnea (Num 14) a whole generation were sentenced to die in the desert. Only Joshua, Caleb, and those under twenty when they left Egypt were spared. Why so?
— — Later God repudiated the ten tribes of Israel and said ‘you are not my people’ (Hos 1:9), but spared Judah. Why so?
VI. Israel’s Restoration Must Be Totally by God’s Grace and Mercy 9:23–33
a. On the same terms as the Gentiles (9:24).
b. Many Gentiles in Paul’s day were justified by grace, through faith, and thus became vessels of mercy and glory (9:23, 30);
c. But Paul’s Jewish contemporaries mostly refused to become vessels of mercy and insisted on trying to earn salvation by works.
J.
Click to expand...
Hate means to love less in the context . Here is the authoritative lexicon below referencing Roman’s 9 as love less, disfavor or preferential treatment.

Here is BDAG. used in every seminary by all Greek Scholars/Theologians-

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 653.
 
civic said:
Hate means to love less in the context . Here is the authoritative lexicon below referencing Roman’s 9 as love less, disfavor or preferential treatment.

Here is BDAG. used in every seminary by all Greek Scholars/Theologians-

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 653.
Click to expand...
"but Esau I hated" This is a quote from Mal. 1:2-3. "Hate" is a Hebrew idiom of comparison.

It sounds harsh in English, but compare Gen. 29:31-33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 10:37-38; Luke 14:26; and John 12:25.

The anthropomorphic terms "love" and "hate" relate not to God's emotions towards these individuals, but His commitment to a Messianic line and promise.

Jacob was the son of promise based on the prophecy of Gen. 25:23. Esau, in Mal. 1:2-3, referred to the nation of Edom (the descendant of Esau).

https://soundcloud.com/myrtlefieldhouse%2F3-gods-sovereign-choice-of-his

I would ask you to listen and give me your feedback.

YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

I must admit to you the reader that I am biased at this point. My systematic theology is not Calvinism or Dispensationalism, but it is Great Commission evangelicalism (cf. Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8).

I believe God had an eternal plan for the redemption of all mankind (e.g., Gen. 3:15; 12:3; Exod 19:5-6; John 1:29; 3:16; 4:42; 12:47; Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 3:4; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14), all those created in His image and likeness (cf. Gen. 1:26-27).

The two covenants are united in Christ (cf. Gal. 3:28-29; Col. 3:11). Jesus is the mystery of God, hidden but now revealed (cf. Eph. 2:11-3:13)! The NT gospel, not Israel, is the key to Scripture

This pre-understanding colors all my interpretations of Scripture. I read all texts through it! It is surely a bias (all interpreters have them!), but it is my scripturally-informed presupposition.

The focus of Genesis 1-2 is YHWH creating a place where He and His highest creation, mankind, can fellowship (cf. Gen. 1:26,27; 3:8). Physical creation is a stage for this interpersonal divine agenda.

St. Augustine characterized it as a divine-shaped hole in every person that can be filled only by God Himself.
C. S. Lewis called this planet "the touched planet," (i.e., prepared by God for humans).
The OT has many hints of this divine agenda.

Genesis 3:15 is the first promise that YHWH will not leave mankind in the terrible mess of sin and rebellion. It does not refer to Israel because there is no Israel, or covenant people, until the call of Abraham in Genesis 12.

Genesis 12:1-3 is YHWH's initial call and revelation to Abraham which will become the covenant people, Israel. But even in this initial call, God had an eye to the whole world. Notice Gen. 12:3!


In Exodus 20 (Deuteronomy 5) YHWH gave His law to Moses to guide His special people. Notice that in Exod. 19:5-6, YHWH reveals to Moses the unique relationship Israel will have. But also notice that they were chosen, like Abraham, to bless the world (cf. Exod. 19:5, "for all the earth is Mine"). Israel was to be a mechanism for the nations to know YHWH and be attracted to Him. Tragically they failed (cf. Ezek. 36:22-36).

In the Psalms ‒ 22:27-28; 66:4; 86:9 (Rev. 15:4)
Through the prophets YHWH continued to reveal His universal redemptive plans.
Isaiah ‒ 2:2-4; 12:4-5; 25:6-9; 42:6,10-12; 45:22; 49:5-6; 51:4-5; 56:6-8; 60:1-3; 66:18,23
Jeremiah ‒ 3:17; 4:2; 16:19
Micah 4:1-3
Malachi 1:11

Jonah may be the most "missionary" book of the OT. God's love for Gentiles is obvious (i.e., the sailors and the Ninevites)!
This universal emphasis is facilitated by the emergence of the "new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; described in Ezek. 36:22-36), which focuses on the mercy of YHWH , not the performance of fallen humans. Believing mankind is given is a "new heart," a "new mind," and a "new spirit." Obedience is crucial but it is an internal motivation, not an external code only

The NT clearly reinforces the universal redemptive plan in several ways.

The Great Commission ‒ Matt. 28:18-20; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 1:8
God's has an eternal plan (i.e., predestined) ‒ Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 3:18; 4:28; 13:29
God wants all humans to be saved ‒ John 1:29; 3:16; 4:42; 12:47; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:4-6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 3:4; Heb. 2:9; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14

Christ unites the OT and NT ‒ Gal. 3:28-29; Eph. 2:11-3:13; Col. 3:11. All human barriers and distinctions are removed in Christ. Jesus is the "mystery of God," once hidden but now clearly revealed (Eph. 2:11-3:13).

The NT focuses on Jesus, not Israel. The gospel, not a nationality or geographical region, is central. Israel was the first revelation (cf. Matt. 5:17-19) but Jesus is the ultimate, final revelation (cf. Matt. 5:21-48; John 1:14-18; 14:8-11; Heb. 1:1-3).

Shalom
J.
 
Last edited:
civic said:
Hate means to love less in the context .
Click to expand...
LOVE and HATE in English are words related to "emotional states" ... (How we FEEL about or towards something).
LOVE and HATE in Hebrew/Aramaic are words related to "actions" ... (What we DO about or towards something).

Jesus makes this point (love is DOING):
  • [John 14:15, 21, 23-24, 31 NASB20]
  • 15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. ...
  • 21 "The one who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." ...
  • 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make [Our] dwelling with him.
  • 24 "The one who does not love Me does not follow My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. ...
  • 31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let's go from here.
  • [John 15:9-10, 12-13 NASB20]
  • 9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love.
  • 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love. ...
  • 12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
  • 13 "Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends.
  • [John 21:15-17 NASB20]
  • 15 Now when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs."
  • 16 He said to him again, a second time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
  • 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, [son] of John, do you love Me?" Peter was hurt because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.
James makes a similar point (faith is DOING, expressed in LOVE):
  • [James 2:14-17 NASB20]
  • 14 What use is it, my brothers [and sisters,] if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
  • 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
  • 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," yet you do not give them what is necessary for [their] body, what use is that?
  • 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, [being] by itself.

John expresses a similar point (love is DOING):
  • [2 John 1:6 NASB20] 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you are to walk in it.

[Remember it was SPOKEN by Jesus and the OT before it was WRITTEN down in the NT.]
 
atpollard said:
LOVE and HATE in English are words related to "emotional states" ... (How we FEEL about or towards something).
LOVE and HATE in Hebrew/Aramaic are words related to "actions" ... (What we DO about or towards something).
Click to expand...

I disagree with this.

Ever heard of "fattening the calf"? That's not loving it.

You can do all the same external things with evil motivations.

"If I give all that I have to the poor and have not love."

As Paul says this, we see that the action cannot be love itself.
 
dizerner said:
I disagree with this.

Ever heard of "fattening the calf"? That's not loving it.

You can do all the same external things with evil motivations.

"If I give all that I have to the poor and have not love."

As Paul says this, we see that the action cannot be love itself.
Click to expand...
[Luke 14:26 NASB20] 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate[G3404] his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

G3404 = miseō = μισέω miséō, mis-eh'-o; from a primary μῖσος mîsos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:—hate(-ful).

  • "By Extension" is NEVER actually used by translators because that is NOT what the word means.
  • The KJV translates Strong's G3404 in the following manner: hate (41x), hateful (1x).

[Malachi 1:3 NASB20] 3 but I have hated[H8130] Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and [given] his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness."

H8130 = śānē' = sânêʼ, saw-nay'; a primitive root; to hate (personally):—enemy, foe, (be) hate(-ful, -r), odious, × utterly.

  • The Hebrew/Aramaic (which they quoted and spoke) does not allow for the alternative "extension" of the Greek that does not appear in translations but people like to argue for.
  • Hate means HATE, not LOVE LESS and if you search the OT use you discover it is active, not emotional.

God does not seethe with pent up rage towards sin waiting for the Last Day when God can explode (emotion). God's HATE of sin is an active opposition (action). God follows what He tells us in Romans 1:18-32 (giving them over to) and God will do what he said in Matthew 25:31-46 (Judgement).
 
atpollard said:
[Luke 14:26 NASB20] 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate[G3404] his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

G3404 = miseō = μισέω miséō, mis-eh'-o; from a primary μῖσος mîsos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:—hate(-ful).

  • "By Extension" is NEVER actually used by translators because that is NOT what the word means.
  • The KJV translates Strong's G3404 in the following manner: hate (41x), hateful (1x).

[Malachi 1:3 NASB20] 3 but I have hated[H8130] Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and [given] his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness."

H8130 = śānē' = sânêʼ, saw-nay'; a primitive root; to hate (personally):—enemy, foe, (be) hate(-ful, -r), odious, × utterly.

  • The Hebrew/Aramaic (which they quoted and spoke) does not allow for the alternative "extension" of the Greek that does not appear in translations but people like to argue for.
  • Hate means HATE, not LOVE LESS and if you search the OT use you discover it is active, not emotional.

God does not seethe with pent up rage towards sin waiting for the Last Day when God can explode (emotion). God's HATE of sin is an active opposition (action). God follows what He tells us in Romans 1:18-32 (giving them over to) and God will do what he said in Matthew 25:31-46 (Judgement).
Click to expand...
Feel free to invite some Calvinists over here . :) even though they banned me in the other site I can still read the comments:).
 

Similar threads

T
"Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” (Romans 10:9–13)
5 6 7
Replies
124
Views
1K
jeremiah1five
jeremiah1five
T
CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH THAT JESUS IS LORD” (ROMANS 10:9–13)
Replies
0
Views
53
TomL
T
Johann
All Claims of The Son's Deity
Replies
6
Views
157
civic
civic
Johann
Christ The God-Man
Replies
7
Views
127
101G
101G
MTMattie
Jimmy says... so it must be true? Or What effect does this have to make some believe there was no trinity?
Replies
1
Views
131
101G
101G
Back
Top Bottom