Revelation 20:5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

[MTMattie]

I was asked to move this subject away from a thread it was not on topic with.

Not sure if this works.... any of the mods please move if so desired.

@Red Baker had posted this under the "Do we have any Catholics here" reply 106

To God's Grace asking

Do you believe in soul sleep for unbelievers?

What I do believe the scriptures plainly teach concerning the lost is that they do not possess eternal life in "any sense whatsoever"!
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.
1st Resurrection:

Every single believer who has been raised up in Christ to new life, hath part in this 1st resurrection. Remember the scriptures talk of Christ as the "FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD." If that's not the 1st Resurrection from the dead, the new birth in Christ, then nothing is. He is the Resurrection as He told Martha, and all those raised WITH HIM hath part in that first Resurrection. They are the Church of the firstborn. On these, the second death hath no power. Of course not, for they never die again! ..He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2nd Resurrection:

The second coming, at the last trumpet, at the last day, when we that are alive will be raised up to meet Jesus in the air, and Judgment day when the rest of the dead (unsaved who have died) are all are raised up to stand for Judgment.

1st Death:

The death in Adam which all of mankind has suffered and which if they are not resurrected in Christ from that death, they shall suffer the judgement in the second resurrection.

2nd Death:

The Judgment that is meted out By GOD upon the unrighteous. HELL! There shall be weeping and grinding of teeth! This is the death that the wages of sin brings forth. It's punishment. The 1st Resurrection (Those raised in Christ) have no need to worry about this, as the power of the Cross of Christ (1st Resurrection) has taken away the sting of death.

We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.
Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

Symbolism:
Rest of the Dead = the unsaved who have died
First Resurrection = Christ, and all raised up with Him!

Now I posted this...

Reply 107
Thank you @Red Baker . You spoke it clearly

They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

But... a few questions please that I have struggled with.

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

Now... last, I promise.

Jesus descended at some point during his 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

This was to liberate those who had not ascended until after He would ascend and sit on the right hand of the Father. IS THAT RIGHT?

Since after the tomb was discovered empty and Jesus did appear to others... and according to Luke His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection (Pentecost)... When did the liberated souls actually go to heaven? (Remember, no one had seen the Father or Gone to Heaven except Jesus and no one would until He was up there) (I still have a problem of those resurrected saints in Matt 27:51-53.. especially since not all the saints came out of their graves)

Thanks and blessing.

Reply 108 was Red's Can you find us a thread we can discuss this in, or, do think it's okay to do so here, I do not care, but then again, I want to do what is proper and right?

And #109
@GodsGrace said

You're asking @Red Baker so I will only reply to the above since the answer is absolutely accepted by all Christians....
Paradise is Hades.
Abraham's Bossom is Paradise/Hades.
Same place.

I leave the rest for RB although I, of course, know the answers.

I do find it rather amazing how we have differing opinions.
This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic.

So.. now that you are up to speed....
Ill make a reply to @GodsGrace

I am very, very, very happy you are here. I am very, very, very happy you are contributing

But my having been on a number of forums now I can assure you thatwe all have differing opinions unless we hail from the same church and denomination which is generally not the case.
I think what you wrote
"This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic."

Would make a great topic. I think you should start one.

As to cutting in on other debates... You are fine. It sure is difficult to not voice an opinion when something hits your eyes and starts scream....LOL

So folks...

Anyone feel free to jump in here.

 

[Quintus5]

While we are talking about Lazarus, let's look at what Jesus said:

As for the Rich Man and Lazarus
Jesus is speaking of the Jewish nation---they had Moses and the Prophets, but they didn't pay any attention to them.
Here are the 5 brothers. Pharisees Essenes, , Saducees and Herodians and Zealots
From the parable:

Luke 18:27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ (Doesn't God forbid the living speaking to the dead, so why would he ask Lazarus to go to his brothers?)

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

. They still were not convinced when Lazarus was resurrected, which occurred shortly after this parable.

John 11: 11-14
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
[12] Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. [13] Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. [14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And when He arrived , He saw Martha who said:

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So Jesus said He was going to awaken Lazarus, and Martha said she knew he would be resurrected on the last day.!!!!

If I had been Lazarus, I would've been madder than a wet hen if I'd been pulled out of the Kingdom to come back here, but he wasn't brought back from Heaven. Jesus awoke him like He said He was going to , and not a word from Lazarus about Heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was asked to move this subject away from a thread it was not on topic with.

Not sure if this works.... any of the mods please move if so desired.

@Red Baker had posted this under the "Do we have any Catholics here" reply 106

To God's Grace asking


What I do believe the scriptures plainly teach concerning the lost is that they do not possess eternal life in "any sense whatsoever"!
“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.
1st Resurrection:

2nd Resurrection:

1st Death:

2nd Death:

We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.
Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

Symbolism:
Rest of the Dead = the unsaved who have died
First Resurrection = Christ, and all raised up with Him!

Now I posted this...

Reply 107
Thank you @Red Baker . You spoke it clearly

They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

But... a few questions please that I have struggled with.

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

Now... last, I promise.

Jesus descended at some point during his 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

This was to liberate those who had not ascended until after He would ascend and sit on the right hand of the Father. IS THAT RIGHT?

Since after the tomb was discovered empty and Jesus did appear to others... and according to Luke His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection (Pentecost)... When did the liberated souls actually go to heaven? (Remember, no one had seen the Father or Gone to Heaven except Jesus and no one would until He was up there) (I still have a problem of those resurrected saints in Matt 27:51-53.. especially since not all the saints came out of their graves)

Thanks and blessing.

Reply 108 was Red's Can you find us a thread we can discuss this in, or, do think it's okay to do so here, I do not care, but then again, I want to do what is proper and right?

And #109
@GodsGrace said

You're asking @Red Baker so I will only reply to the above since the answer is absolutely accepted by all Christians....
Paradise is Hades.
Abraham's Bossom is Paradise/Hades.
Same place.

I leave the rest for RB although I, of course, know the answers.

I do find it rather amazing how we have differing opinions.
This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic.

So.. now that you are up to speed....
Ill make a reply to @GodsGrace

I am very, very, very happy you are here. I am very, very, very happy you are contributing

But my having been on a number of forums now I can assure you thatwe all have differing opinions unless we hail from the same church and denomination which is generally not the case.
I think what you wrote
"This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic."

Would make a great topic. I think you should start one.

As to cutting in on other debates... You are fine. It sure is difficult to not voice an opinion when something hits your eyes and starts scream....LOL

So folks...

Anyone feel free to jump in here.

MT....I replied to the above on the other thread.
You could read it over there and then come back here to reply....
Sorry.

 

[Red Baker]

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

@MTMattie

It is a truth unbelievers do not live again until the last day when all shall he raised.

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

You asked: "Who was He talking to?" Let the scriptures tell us:

Luke 16:14​

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.”

Luke 16:22-31 was spoken to the Pharisees who were a very covetous religious sect. And these scriptures are indeed a parable, the context demands this interpretation.

"I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell." There is no such place as present burning hellfire, where the unbelievers go at death, it goes against scriptures first and foremost, and it defies logic, common sense, it removes one's ability to think according to sane logic. To even believe that God sends men to hellfire at death only to take them out again, to judge them and sends them back again, to suffer as long as God is God, shows one corrupt understanding of so many scriptures. Matthew 7 would had been a perfect place to remind the Lord that they had already suffered x about years, etc., yet that is never mentioned, and for reasons, no such place exist, only in the corrupt theology of RCC with their wicked doctrine of purgatory where a present burning hell fire got its teaching from.

Matthew 7:22​

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”

Why not remind the Lord that I had already suffered x amount of years, yet again, that is never mentioned, because they had not suffered as of yet. Even when they are cast into the lake of fire, they will not suffer as long as God is God, but shall perish, just as the scriptures said that they would. The lake of fire IS the second and final death of the wicked. More on this later, now let us look at Luke 16:18-31

Coming back....RB