I mentioned the MT. Turns out you're talking about the DSS. Studies show that the DSS matches the LXX more often than it does the MT. The MT is more of the outlier.
PSA in the early Christian church
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Yep
Duane
Member
Criticism of Penal Substitution Atonement
The Penal Substitution theory is heavily critiqued for various reasons, such as for depicting God’s justice as excessively severe and disproportionate—suggesting even minor transgressions merit endless hellfire torture. Critics argue that this perspective fosters a detached, transactional relationship between humanity and God, emphasizing punishment and retribution over a nurturing, parent-like relationship centered on love, reconciliation, and restoration. Other theologians and thinkers raise ethical and theological objections about the nature of divine justice and mercy and the theory’s incompatibility with many Bible passages.Despite its criticism, Penal Substitution remains the central tenet in most Reformed, evangelical, and conservative Protestant denominations, profoundly influencing their theology, view of God’s character, understanding of atonement and the nature of salvation, and ultimately—their view of hellfire as Eternal Conscious Torment, as evident in the preachings of Reformed, evangelical, and conservative Protestant pastors and evangelists.
Since Penal Substitution Atonement is considered the greenhouse of the doctrine of hellfire, I will now offer a quick summary of the main points of criticism by modern-day theologians.
1. Problematic Father-Son Dynamic: Penal Substitution Atonement (PSA) portrays the Father requiring the torture and killing of His Son, suggesting a disturbing dynamic within the Godhead and an alleged temporary split within the Godhead. This depiction conflicts with the message of divine unity and love central to Christianity.
2. Ethical Concerns: PSA involves punishing the innocent to absolve the guilty, which contradicts our innate sense of justice. Punishing a law-abiding citizen for a criminal’s actions can be considered unjust.
3. Paradox of Forgiveness: PSA implies forgiveness requires punishment, which contradicts the essence of forgiveness and Jesus’ teachings on forgiveness in the New Testament gospels. True forgiveness, as demonstrated throughout Jesus’ ministry, involves letting go, not transferring punishment to another. Biblical teachings on forgiveness emphasize grace and mercy without conditioning or demanding for retribution.
4. Overshadowing Love and Resurrection: PSA makes punishment the essence of the Gospel, which can diminish its broader themes, shifting the emphasis from Jesus’s teachings about unconditional love, sacrifice, kindness and forgiveness to a transactional and violent view of salvation.
5. Disproportionate Punishment: PSA suggests eternal abusive punishment for temporal sins or lack of faith, which challenges the notion of a just and merciful God. This disproportionality raises ethical concerns about divine justice and compassion.
6. Logic of Trauma and Abuse: The idea of a God demanding torture for atonement seems unethical and can trigger trauma and align with patterns of abusive behavior, leading to a skewed view of God as a punitive figure rather than a loving parent.
7. Endorsement of Violence: PSA necessitates violence for salvation, which contradicts Jesus’s teachings of nonviolence and peace, potentially endorsing violence as a divine mandate.
8. Limitation on Divine Love: PSA portrays God as a judge who prioritizes retribution over mercy, obscuring the unconditional nature of divine love and potentially leading to legalism and a cult-like community.
9. Historical and Biblical Discrepancies: PSA is a relatively modern development, diverging from both early Christian understandings of atonement and that of the Hebrew Scriptures. Old Testament sacrifices were about purification, not punishment, and New Testament teachings likewise emphasize reconciliation and restoration.
10. Issue of Fairness: PSA fails to account for human limitations and imperfections. God created humans with finite knowledge and very limited cognitive abilities, making it unfair to impose eternal punishment on finite beings and for temporal sins influenced by these inherent limitations.
11. Fear as Motivation: PSA promotes fear as the primary motivator to believe, conflicting with the biblical message that “there is no fear in love” (1 John 4:18) and the portrayal of a loving and compassionate God. Psychologically, fear-driven motivation is detrimental to emotional, mental, and spiritual growth.
12. Pagan Influence: The concept of a wrathful deity demanding the torture and killing of an innocent sacrifice to appease wrath is rooted in deeply ancient pagan practices, not biblical teachings.
Top 6 Historical Theories of Atonement Every Christian Must Know — Christianity — Dr. Eitan Bar | Bible Scholar
Understanding the reason(s) behind Jesus' death is fundamental to Christian belief. Explore five historical theories that attempt to explain why Jesus died, each offering a unique perspective on the significance of His sacrifice and its impact on our faith.
eitan.bar
Dizerner
Well-known member
So what? It's not a valid argument.
Hell has been criticized for being too harsh, in fact there is a logical connection of the doctrine of hell with PSA.
Do we now take God's holiness and the evilness of our sin and adjust them to what makes us feel better about it?
Your top criticisms are all secular ideas of God's holiness and justice being centered on creation's well-being, instead of on God's authority, importance, worth, and holiness, and these are anti-Christ and anti-Bible priorities.
So I want to warn people who accept these unbiblical values that their soul depends on the atonement of their Savior, and every single one of their sins cannot be swept under the rug by God and just ignored and set aside, and that is why Christ was displayed as tortured precisely because of your sins, and no other reason—YOUR sins put him there, and his love held him there.
Do not reject the beautiful harmonization of God's perfection and mercy in bearing your punishment because of all your soulish idolatries, your distaste for putting God's value above all others and failing to respect the degree of his holiness and just how evil your sin is in God's eyes, which cost God his very life for you, and you will know God's wrath if you reject God's atonement.
The rest of these objections have all been thoroughly debunked and exhaustively dismantled many times on here already.
Dizerner
Well-known member
And I mentioned THE HEBREW.
Now we can see the MT matches up with the DSS in the book of Isaiah extremely closely, showing that it is indeed trustworthy.
Duane
Member
I love this one.
8
. Limitation on Divine Love: The portrayal of God in Penal Substitutionary Atonement as a judge who uplifts retaliation over mercy can obscure the profound and unconditional nature of divine love and often turns the believer into a religious legalist forming a cult-like community. In the Christian narrative, God is primarily portrayed as loving and merciful, a stark contrast to the image of a deity demanding retribution.
8
. Limitation on Divine Love: The portrayal of God in Penal Substitutionary Atonement as a judge who uplifts retaliation over mercy can obscure the profound and unconditional nature of divine love and often turns the believer into a religious legalist forming a cult-like community. In the Christian narrative, God is primarily portrayed as loving and merciful, a stark contrast to the image of a deity demanding retribution.
Dizerner
Well-known member
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:28-31 NKJ)
Let us submit our hearts to God's Word and not our soulish idea of a permissive idolatrous love.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:28-31 NKJ)
Let us submit our hearts to God's Word and not our soulish idea of a permissive idolatrous love.
The MT is not written in Hebrew? Thus, the confusion. Studies show that the DSS matches the LXX more often than it does the MT. The MT is more of the outlier.
Hosanna
Well-known member
My loves nurtures you.
Psalm 131:1-2
1 Lord, my heart is meek before you. I don’t consider myself better than others. I’m content to not pursue matters that are over my head— such as your complex mysteries and wonders— that I’m not yet ready to understand. 2 I am humbled and quieted in your presence. Like a contented child who rests on its mother’s lap, I’m your resting child and my soul is content in you.
Deep inside you, a little child still needs to be loved, dear one. Your life is like growth rings in a tree, and you are the summation of every life experience you have ever had. I do not need to go back in time to love the 'little you’ because the 3-year-old in you is still part of who you are today.
Though you have grown up on the outside, there is still a beautiful, innocent little you on the inside that I want to pour My love into. So would you open your beautiful heart to Me, My child, and let My love comfort and nurture you?
Like a contented child resting on the lap of its mother, so I want to bring a deep contentment to your soul. All you have to do is breathe, and My love will do the rest.
Psalm 131:1-2
1 Lord, my heart is meek before you. I don’t consider myself better than others. I’m content to not pursue matters that are over my head— such as your complex mysteries and wonders— that I’m not yet ready to understand. 2 I am humbled and quieted in your presence. Like a contented child who rests on its mother’s lap, I’m your resting child and my soul is content in you.
Deep inside you, a little child still needs to be loved, dear one. Your life is like growth rings in a tree, and you are the summation of every life experience you have ever had. I do not need to go back in time to love the 'little you’ because the 3-year-old in you is still part of who you are today.
Though you have grown up on the outside, there is still a beautiful, innocent little you on the inside that I want to pour My love into. So would you open your beautiful heart to Me, My child, and let My love comfort and nurture you?
Like a contented child resting on the lap of its mother, so I want to bring a deep contentment to your soul. All you have to do is breathe, and My love will do the rest.
Foster
New member
PSA is a fear-based doctrine, distorts the gospel. I started doing some thinking and reading and came to a few conclusions:
You can’t look at the theory on it’s own without its historical context.
Contrary to what those of the Reformed tradition are taught, the Bible doesn’t make a case for PSA; instead, cultural influence helps one read it into the Bible.
PSA is problematic when looking at it in light of the Old Testament, Trinitarian doctrine, and Jewish thought.
You can’t look at the theory on it’s own without its historical context.
Contrary to what those of the Reformed tradition are taught, the Bible doesn’t make a case for PSA; instead, cultural influence helps one read it into the Bible.
PSA is problematic when looking at it in light of the Old Testament, Trinitarian doctrine, and Jewish thought.
Johann
Well-known member
False Claim Biblical Correction
God the Father tortured the Son. Christ willingly laid down His own life in unity with the Father.
PSA divides the Trinity. The Trinity remained perfectly united; God was in Christ reconciling the world.
PSA contradicts divine love. The Cross is the supreme display of God's love (Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:10).
PSA offends because it is unjust. PSA offends because it humbles sinful humanity and glorifies God's grace.
Forgiveness without justice would make God unjust.
Romans 3:25–26 —
"Whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
God must remain just even when justifying sinners.
PSA preserves both God’s mercy (He forgives) and God’s justice (the penalty is borne by Christ).
False Claim Biblical Correction
Forgiveness should not involve any punishment. Biblical forgiveness flows from Christ’s sacrificial death (Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 1:7).
PSA contradicts Jesus' teachings. Jesus teaches forgiveness grounded in His own suffering, death, and resurrection (Luke 24:46–47).
Forgiveness means overlooking sin. Forgiveness means cleansing sin righteously through the blood of Christ (Hebrews 9:22).
Punishment negates love and mercy. The Cross is where perfect love and perfect justice meet (Romans 3:25–26).
False Claim Biblical Correction
PSA limits God's love and promotes retaliation. The Cross is the ultimate demonstration of divine love (Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:10).
PSA leads to religious legalism and cultic behavior. PSA grounds salvation in God's grace alone, destroying works-based pride (Ephesians 2:8–9).
God demanding retribution contradicts divine mercy. Justice and mercy meet in Christ's willing sacrifice (Psalm 85:10; Isaiah 53:5–6).
Legalism flows from PSA theology. True PSA teaching leads to humility, worship, and trust in Christ alone (Titus 3:5).
Shalom.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
The Apostles trusted them when the Apostles quoted directly from the LXX. I follow the Apostles. You can follow whomever else you want.
Do you deny that PSA has God's wrath being unleashed on Christ? If so, you just crippled the very essence of PSA.
civic
Well-known member
YepCriticism of Penal Substitution Atonement
The Penal Substitution theory is heavily critiqued for various reasons, such as for depicting God’s justice as excessively severe and disproportionate—suggesting even minor transgressions merit endless hellfire torture. Critics argue that this perspective fosters a detached, transactional relationship between humanity and God, emphasizing punishment and retribution over a nurturing, parent-like relationship centered on love, reconciliation, and restoration. Other theologians and thinkers raise ethical and theological objections about the nature of divine justice and mercy and the theory’s incompatibility with many Bible passages.
Despite its criticism, Penal Substitution remains the central tenet in most Reformed, evangelical, and conservative Protestant denominations, profoundly influencing their theology, view of God’s character, understanding of atonement and the nature of salvation, and ultimately—their view of hellfire as Eternal Conscious Torment, as evident in the preachings of Reformed, evangelical, and conservative Protestant pastors and evangelists.
Since Penal Substitution Atonement is considered the greenhouse of the doctrine of hellfire, I will now offer a quick summary of the main points of criticism by modern-day theologians.
1. Problematic Father-Son Dynamic: Penal Substitution Atonement (PSA) portrays the Father requiring the torture and killing of His Son, suggesting a disturbing dynamic within the Godhead and an alleged temporary split within the Godhead. This depiction conflicts with the message of divine unity and love central to Christianity.
2. Ethical Concerns: PSA involves punishing the innocent to absolve the guilty, which contradicts our innate sense of justice. Punishing a law-abiding citizen for a criminal’s actions can be considered unjust.
3. Paradox of Forgiveness: PSA implies forgiveness requires punishment, which contradicts the essence of forgiveness and Jesus’ teachings on forgiveness in the New Testament gospels. True forgiveness, as demonstrated throughout Jesus’ ministry, involves letting go, not transferring punishment to another. Biblical teachings on forgiveness emphasize grace and mercy without conditioning or demanding for retribution.
4. Overshadowing Love and Resurrection: PSA makes punishment the essence of the Gospel, which can diminish its broader themes, shifting the emphasis from Jesus’s teachings about unconditional love, sacrifice, kindness and forgiveness to a transactional and violent view of salvation.
5. Disproportionate Punishment: PSA suggests eternal abusive punishment for temporal sins or lack of faith, which challenges the notion of a just and merciful God. This disproportionality raises ethical concerns about divine justice and compassion.
6. Logic of Trauma and Abuse: The idea of a God demanding torture for atonement seems unethical and can trigger trauma and align with patterns of abusive behavior, leading to a skewed view of God as a punitive figure rather than a loving parent.
7. Endorsement of Violence: PSA necessitates violence for salvation, which contradicts Jesus’s teachings of nonviolence and peace, potentially endorsing violence as a divine mandate.
8. Limitation on Divine Love: PSA portrays God as a judge who prioritizes retribution over mercy, obscuring the unconditional nature of divine love and potentially leading to legalism and a cult-like community.
9. Historical and Biblical Discrepancies: PSA is a relatively modern development, diverging from both early Christian understandings of atonement and that of the Hebrew Scriptures. Old Testament sacrifices were about purification, not punishment, and New Testament teachings likewise emphasize reconciliation and restoration.
10. Issue of Fairness: PSA fails to account for human limitations and imperfections. God created humans with finite knowledge and very limited cognitive abilities, making it unfair to impose eternal punishment on finite beings and for temporal sins influenced by these inherent limitations.
11. Fear as Motivation: PSA promotes fear as the primary motivator to believe, conflicting with the biblical message that “there is no fear in love” (1 John 4:18) and the portrayal of a loving and compassionate God. Psychologically, fear-driven motivation is detrimental to emotional, mental, and spiritual growth.
12. Pagan Influence: The concept of a wrathful deity demanding the torture and killing of an innocent sacrifice to appease wrath is rooted in deeply ancient pagan practices, not biblical teachings.
Top 6 Historical Theories of Atonement Every Christian Must Know — Christianity — Dr. Eitan Bar | Bible Scholar
Understanding the reason(s) behind Jesus' death is fundamental to Christian belief. Explore five historical theories that attempt to explain why Jesus died, each offering a unique perspective on the significance of His sacrifice and its impact on our faith.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Speaking about logical connections...
Jesus did not experience eternal torment. Therefore, either A or B below must be correct, but not both:
A) Eternal torment is not what men deserve for their sins
B) Jesus sacrifice was not a penal substitutionary atonement.
The top criticisms posted by @Duane are ideas deeply rooted in God's character as revealed through Scriptures and reason.
If we reject reason then we reject Scriptures and our own identity as rational beings. Then it makes no difference to worship the Only and True God or to follow Jim Jones to Guyana, accept his sexual abuses and take poison at his command.
The values presented by @Duane are biblical.
However, if you are so convinced that those values are unbiblical, because the Bible presents a very different set of values, why haven't you thrown the Bible to the trash can? That would be the right thing to do.
Dizerner
Well-known member
You need to do more work here. You are misinformed. Also I said absolutely nothing about the MT not being in Hebrew.
Look up the Great Isaiah Scroll and its similarities with the MT.
Not to mention the Essene sect was a cult that simply gathered a hodgepodge of manuscripts and we must be careful with it.
Dizerner
Well-known member
You deny Jesus is God.
So of course you deny Jesus is infinite and can experience the equivalent.
I throw your posts in the trash can, because they contradict the Bible.
And you have consistently and methodically put your Bahai faith above the Bible and made the Bible bow to it.
So get behind me.
civic
Well-known member
Projecting as you have not done your homework , he has.
You make void the word of God by your traditions, the traditions of men- PSA
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Off topic
