PSA in the early Christian church

Before anyone gets the wrong impression that there is only PSA (the Propitiation view) and nothing else, there does exist the Expiation view of the Atonement that is definitely supported by the Greek OT and the Greek NT. I don't know about the Hebrew DSS as my Hebrew is non-existent. Here is a study I did a while ago on the Atonement and whether it was an Expiration (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses) or a Propitiation (the appeasing of a deity) :

Is Christ the Propitiation or the Expiation concerning the sins of the whole world?

Same verses, different translations of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos):

1 John 2:2 (KJV) "And He is the Propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world."

1 John 2:2 (RSV) "And He is the Expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

What exactly is the correct translation of the Greek word ἱλασμός (hilasmos) from the Greek Koine NT? Is it propitiation (appeasing of a deity) or is it an expiation (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses)? The issue at stake here is whether or not God is wrathful/angry at us and must be appeased in order to change his disposition toward us.

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament calls the Hebrew equivalent of ἱλασμός as “make an atonement, make a reconciliation, purge.” In Philo and other Greek Jewish literature it means “atonement” or “sin offering.” Both cases fall on the side of Expiation, not the appeasing of a deity.

In fact propitiation, is derived from Classic Greek writings such as Plutarch, who used it to mean “conciliate” or “a means of appeasing”. This occurred about 500 years before Christ, too long ago to justify such a translation!

Also, if we look at the uses of hilasmos (ἱλασμός) in the KJV OT nowhere does ἱλασμός translate to propitiation. These are: Ezekiel 44:27 (“sin offering”), Leviticus 25:9 (“atonement”), Numbers 5:8 (“guilt offering”), Amos 8:14 (“guilt or trespass offering”), Daniel 9:9 (“forgiveness”). The use of hilasmos on the LXX also supports understanding it as atonement and sacrifice for sins, something which changes us and brings about forgiveness, not something which changes God’s disposition toward us.

Many lexicons and linguistic dictionaries by Protestants assume hilasmos means propitiation, but this is reading their doctrine into a Greek word rather than stating what the word meant in first century Koine Greek.

Historically, why was Propitiation so readily accepted by the Christian masses? That's because that idea was born within a forensic legalistic culture foreign to the Biblical authors, and is something which is read into the text. The Biblical atonement is not a legal act, but a cosmic and ontological one which purifies from sin and reunites humanity with God. There is no legal dilemma if not all are saved yet Christ died for all. God was not punishing Christ on the cross and the punishment of hell is a self-imposed punishment of separation from God by those who do not wish to know Him. God’s judgment is simply the sinner affirming his choice to reject Divine Love.

Propitiation is not consistent with the statements of Romans 5:8 and 1 John 4:9-10 in that God was already well-disposed towards us and for that reason reconciled us to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice. An atonement for cleansing and forgiving sins fits 1 John 1:10-2:2 which is focused on cleansing from sin and ongoing purification through Christ’s Blood, not any questions of legal standing and certainly not a need to earn God’s favor as if there were ever a time He did not look at us favorably.

First John 4:10 says, “In this is Love, not that we loved God, but He loved us and sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins.” Again, hilasmos here means atoning sacrifice or expiation. It was out of God’s love that God died for us, and it was we who needed to be changed, our wills and dispositions needed to be renewed. There is no hint in the whole context that God was angry at us and punished His Son in our place.

The Cross is the place where atonement was made to reconcile humanity which had turned away from God to the God Who never turned away from us. The atonement justifies, cleanses, redeems, and ransoms. Through the atonement God substitutes for us as He takes death on Himself, death is destroyed, and all will be raised at the Last Day (Judgment Day).

Because God is already favorably disposed towards those for whom Christ died, since His favor is why He provided the atonement in the first place, the interpretation of the word hilasmos as propitiation can be rejected. Christ died as a sacrifice of atonement, to purify us and the creation. He did not die to appease God or bear wrath.

In the final analysis, the penal substitute theory presents God as a Legalistic Judge who demands repayment of debt in order to show mercy. This is not forgiveness nor mercy but retribution.

Conclusion
: Propitiation, the appeasing of an irate Deity by offering Him a sacrifice which bears the weight of His wrath may be acceptable in Islam or paganism but it has no place in Christianity.
Amen brother to the biblical view

No appeasing a Heathen god of wrath. It’s 100% pagan.
 
Before anyone gets the wrong impression that there is only PSA (the Propitiation view) and nothing else, there does exist the Expiation view of the Atonement that is definitely supported by the Greek OT and the Greek NT. I don't know about the Hebrew DSS as my Hebrew is non-existent. Here is a study I did a while ago on the Atonement and whether it was an Expiration (the acts and offerings for atoning for sins/guilts/trespasses) or a Propitiation (the appeasing of a deity) :
I hear you--

---and I appreciate the depth of your study and your care to distinguish between "propitiation" and "expiation," but I must point out that your argument, while thoughtful, misrepresents the scriptural and historical realities on several fronts.

First, you attempt to separate "expiation" and "propitiation" as if they are mutually exclusive, but in fact the biblical idea of atonement embraces both: expiation (removal of sin) and propitiation (satisfaction of divine justice and wrath).

Let’s begin with the Greek itself.

The word you focus on, ἱλασμός (hilasmos), is indeed used in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10 - but it does not exclusively mean "expiation" in the sense of "removal of sin" without regard to divine wrath.

Its cognate verb ἱλάσκομαι (hilaskomai) and noun ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion) show clearly in Scripture and Jewish usage that it involves appeasement of divine displeasure and the turning aside of wrath.

For instance.

In Hebrews 2:17, it is said that Christ had "to make propitiation [ἱλάσκεσθαι hilaskesthai] for the sins of the people," a clear action involving not merely cleansing but appeasing divine judgment.

In Romans 3:25, Paul explicitly says Christ was "set forth as a ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion)" - the same word used in the LXX for the mercy seat (kapporet, כַּפֹּרֶת), where blood was sprinkled to satisfy the demands of divine justice (Leviticus 16).

Thus, you cannot historically or linguistically erase the appeasement element from the semantic field of these terms.

Second, you claim that "propitiation" is merely a later import from Greek paganism (Plutarch, etc.).

Yet, even in the LXX- the Greek Old Testament widely used by the Apostles- the term ἱλάσκομαι and its derivatives explicitly involve the appeasement of divine anger--

Numbers 16:46 (LXX) - Moses tells Aaron to make atonement because "wrath has gone out from the Lord" (ἠρξατο γὰρ θυμὸς παρὰ κυρίου). The atonement (ἱλάσκεσθαι) is the specific response to divine wrath, not merely cleansing.

Leviticus 16:15-16 (LXX) - On the Day of Atonement, the blood is sprinkled to "make atonement" because of the uncleannesses and transgressions of Israel -and yet the ritual is explicitly tied to averting wrath and restoring fellowship.

In short, even in the Hebrew sacrificial system as translated into Greek, atonement includes the turning away of divine wrath - not merely internal cleansing.

Third, you suggest that "God was already favorable toward us" and therefore propitiation is unnecessary.

While it is true that God’s love is the origin of the atonement (Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:10), love and justice are not opposites.
God’s holy love demands satisfaction for sin - and the New Testament is clear that Christ bore our sins judicially, not merely therapeutically.


2 Corinthians 5:21 "He made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin."

Galatians 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us." Strong, biblical language here.

Isaiah 53:10 (Hebrew) — וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי ("YHWH was pleased to crush Him; He made Him sick") divine agency is explicitly involved in the Servant’s penal suffering. There is no getting away from this, the language is penal.

Thus, the cross was not merely about expiating sin from humanity’s side; it was about satisfying divine righteousness.

Fourth, you argue that hilasmos in the LXX always translates to expiatory terms like "sin offering" or "atonement."
But this observation actually supports the penal understanding: because in the sacrificial system, sin offerings were made precisely to avert divine wrath.

Leviticus 4:20 (Hebrew) וְכִפֶּר עָלֵיהֶם הַכֹּהֵן וְנִסְלַח לָהֶם ("and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven") here, the atonement (כפר kaphar) is required for forgiveness, showing that guilt remains until dealt with through blood sacrifice.

Moreover, the very structure of the sacrificial system assumes that divine wrath must be addressed.

Fifth, you assert that PSA portrays God as a "legalistic judge," but Scripture itself uses judicial metaphors heavily!

Romans 3:24-26-- God is both "just and the justifier" (δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα) of the one who has faith in Jesus. This forensic framework is not foreign but integral to Paul's theology.

Romans 5:9 "having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

You cannot escape the legal (forensic) framework without rewriting large portions of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. Doesn't work that way. I call it "selective Google-ing" to prove otherwise.


Finally, your conclusion misunderstands the very mercy of God.

True mercy does not ignore justice; it fulfills justice on behalf of the guilty.
God’s love is not permissiveness; it is holiness that took the penalty upon Himself in Christ.

Thus--

The Cross is both an act of expiation (cleansing us from sin) and propitiation (satisfying divine righteousness and wrath).

PSA is not a "late" invention; it is embedded from Genesis 3 (the slaying of an innocent animal to cover Adam and Eve), through the Torah, through Isaiah, into the Gospels and Epistles, and taught by the earliest Church Fathers.

So, in short-- Your error is a false dichotomy-- Expiation and propitiation are not competitors but two sides of the same biblical doctrine.
The Scriptures - both in Hebrew and Greek - clearly testify that God’s atonement removes sin and satisfies His justice because of His love.

Again--


Numbers 16:46
וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל־אַהֲרֹן קַח אֶת־הַמַּחְתָּה וּתֵן עָלָיו אֵשׁ מֵעַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ
וְשִׂים קְטֹרֶת וְהֹלֵךְ מְהֵרָה אֶל־הָעֵדָה
וְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיהֶם כִּי יָצָא הַקֶּצֶף מִלִּפְנֵי יְהוָה הֵחֵל הַנֶּגֶף

Translation: "And Moses said to Aaron, 'Take your censer, and put fire from the altar in it, and put incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation, and make atonement (כַפֵּר kaper) for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD, the plague has begun.'"

Key Greek (LXX):
Numbers 16:46 (LXX)
καὶ εἶπεν Μωυσῆς τῷ Ααρων Λάβε τὴν θυμιατήριον καὶ θες ἐπ’ αὐτὴν πῦρ ἀπὸ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου
καὶ ἐπιθὲς θυμίαμα
καὶ ἄνελθε ταχὺ πρὸς τὴν συναγωγὴν καὶ ἱλάσθητι περὶ αὐτῶν
ὅτι ἐξῆλθεν ὀργὴ παρὰ κυρίου· ἤρξατο γὰρ ὁ θάνατος

Translation: "And Moses said to Aaron, 'Take the censer and place fire from the altar upon it and place incense, and go quickly to the congregation and make propitiation (hilastheti, ἱλάσθητι) for them, because wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.'"


כפר (kpr) and ἱλάσθητι (hilastheti) again show atonement explicitly addressing divine wrath (ὀργή κυρίου, "wrath of the Lord").

The atonement act is urgently required to halt divine judgment, not merely to "cleanse" people internally.

Moses does not say "purify their consciences" but appease the wrath that is already killing people.



Numbers 16 shows that biblical atonement must address real divine wrath - not just remove human guilt.

3. Isaiah 53 — The Suffering Servant's Penal Atonement
Key Hebrew:
Isaiah 53:5–6
וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ
מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ
מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו
וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא־לָנוּ
כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ
אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ
וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."


Key Greek (LXX):
Isaiah 53:5–6 (LXX)
αὐτὸς δὲ ἐτραυματίσθη διὰ τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν
καὶ μεμαλάκισται διὰ τὰς ἀνομίας ἡμῶν·
παιδεία εἰρήνης ἡμῶν ἐπ’ αὐτόν·
τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν
πάντες ὡς πρόβατα ἐπλανήθημεν
ἄνθρωπος τῇ ὁδῷ αὐτοῦ ἐπλανήθη
καὶ κύριος παρέδωκεν αὐτὸν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἡμῶν

Translation: "He was wounded because of our sins, and bruised because of our lawless deeds; the punishment for our peace was upon Him, and by His wound we are healed.
All we like sheep went astray, each to his own way; and the Lord delivered Him over to our sins."



מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ (musar shelomenu) - "chastisement that brought us peace" - indicates judicial punishment transferred.

הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgi‘a) - "caused to meet" or "laid upon" - indicates substitutionary bearing of guilt.

The Greek παίδευσις εἰρήνης and παρέδωκεν (delivered over) strengthen the forensic, penal aspect.



Isaiah 53 clearly teaches that the Servant bears real penal consequences for others’ sins as an act of substitutionary atonement.



Passage Key Hebrew-Greek Terms Function of Atonement Evidence of Propitiation?
Leviticus 16 כפר / ἱλάσεται Blood on Mercy Seat for sins Yes
Numbers 16 כפר / ἱλάσθητι Atonement stops divine wrath Yes
Isaiah 53 מוסר / παίδευσις Chastisement for peace, substitution Yes

Cannot separate God's love from HIS JUSTICE! They are indissolubly echad.

And now I'm really tired.
@Dizerner
J.
 
Last edited:
I hear you--

---and I appreciate the depth of your study and your care to distinguish between "propitiation" and "expiation," but I must point out that your argument, while thoughtful, misrepresents the scriptural and historical realities on several fronts.

First, you attempt to separate "expiation" and "propitiation" as if they are mutually exclusive, but in fact the biblical idea of atonement embraces both: expiation (removal of sin) and propitiation (satisfaction of divine justice and wrath).

Let’s begin with the Greek itself.

The word you focus on, ἱλασμός (hilasmos), is indeed used in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:10 - but it does not exclusively mean "expiation" in the sense of "removal of sin" without regard to divine wrath.

Its cognate verb ἱλάσκομαι (hilaskomai) and noun ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion) show clearly in Scripture and Jewish usage that it involves appeasement of divine displeasure and the turning aside of wrath.

For instance.

In Hebrews 2:17, it is said that Christ had "to make propitiation [ἱλάσκεσθαι hilaskesthai] for the sins of the people," a clear action involving not merely cleansing but appeasing divine judgment.

In Romans 3:25, Paul explicitly says Christ was "set forth as a ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion)" - the same word used in the LXX for the mercy seat (kapporet, כַּפֹּרֶת), where blood was sprinkled to satisfy the demands of divine justice (Leviticus 16).

Thus, you cannot historically or linguistically erase the appeasement element from the semantic field of these terms.

Second, you claim that "propitiation" is merely a later import from Greek paganism (Plutarch, etc.).

Yet, even in the LXX- the Greek Old Testament widely used by the Apostles- the term ἱλάσκομαι and its derivatives explicitly involve the appeasement of divine anger--

Numbers 16:46 (LXX) - Moses tells Aaron to make atonement because "wrath has gone out from the Lord" (ἠρξατο γὰρ θυμὸς παρὰ κυρίου). The atonement (ἱλάσκεσθαι) is the specific response to divine wrath, not merely cleansing.

Leviticus 16:15-16 (LXX) - On the Day of Atonement, the blood is sprinkled to "make atonement" because of the uncleannesses and transgressions of Israel -and yet the ritual is explicitly tied to averting wrath and restoring fellowship.

In short, even in the Hebrew sacrificial system as translated into Greek, atonement includes the turning away of divine wrath - not merely internal cleansing.

Third, you suggest that "God was already favorable toward us" and therefore propitiation is unnecessary.

While it is true that God’s love is the origin of the atonement (Romans 5:8; 1 John 4:10), love and justice are not opposites.
God’s holy love demands satisfaction for sin - and the New Testament is clear that Christ bore our sins judicially, not merely therapeutically.


2 Corinthians 5:21 "He made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin."

Galatians 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us." Strong, biblical language here.

Isaiah 53:10 (Hebrew) — וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי ("YHWH was pleased to crush Him; He made Him sick") divine agency is explicitly involved in the Servant’s penal suffering. There is no getting away from this, the language is penal.

Thus, the cross was not merely about expiating sin from humanity’s side; it was about satisfying divine righteousness.

Fourth, you argue that hilasmos in the LXX always translates to expiatory terms like "sin offering" or "atonement."
But this observation actually supports the penal understanding: because in the sacrificial system, sin offerings were made precisely to avert divine wrath.

Leviticus 4:20 (Hebrew) וְכִפֶּר עָלֵיהֶם הַכֹּהֵן וְנִסְלַח לָהֶם ("and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven") here, the atonement (כפר kaphar) is required for forgiveness, showing that guilt remains until dealt with through blood sacrifice.

Moreover, the very structure of the sacrificial system assumes that divine wrath must be addressed.

Fifth, you assert that PSA portrays God as a "legalistic judge," but Scripture itself uses judicial metaphors heavily!

Romans 3:24-26-- God is both "just and the justifier" (δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα) of the one who has faith in Jesus. This forensic framework is not foreign but integral to Paul's theology.

Romans 5:9 "having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."

You cannot escape the legal (forensic) framework without rewriting large portions of Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. Doesn't work that way. I call it "selective Google-ing" to prove otherwise.


Finally, your conclusion misunderstands the very mercy of God.

True mercy does not ignore justice; it fulfills justice on behalf of the guilty.
God’s love is not permissiveness; it is holiness that took the penalty upon Himself in Christ.

Thus--

The Cross is both an act of expiation (cleansing us from sin) and propitiation (satisfying divine righteousness and wrath).

PSA is not a "late" invention; it is embedded from Genesis 3 (the slaying of an innocent animal to cover Adam and Eve), through the Torah, through Isaiah, into the Gospels and Epistles, and taught by the earliest Church Fathers.

So, in short-- Your error is a false dichotomy-- Expiation and propitiation are not competitors but two sides of the same biblical doctrine.
The Scriptures - both in Hebrew and Greek - clearly testify that God’s atonement removes sin and satisfies His justice because of His love.

Again--


Numbers 16:46
וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל־אַהֲרֹן קַח אֶת־הַמַּחְתָּה וּתֵן עָלָיו אֵשׁ מֵעַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ
וְשִׂים קְטֹרֶת וְהֹלֵךְ מְהֵרָה אֶל־הָעֵדָה
וְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיהֶם כִּי יָצָא הַקֶּצֶף מִלִּפְנֵי יְהוָה הֵחֵל הַנֶּגֶף

Translation: "And Moses said to Aaron, 'Take your censer, and put fire from the altar in it, and put incense on it and carry it quickly to the congregation, and make atonement (כַפֵּר kaper) for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD, the plague has begun.'"

Key Greek (LXX):
Numbers 16:46 (LXX)
καὶ εἶπεν Μωυσῆς τῷ Ααρων Λάβε τὴν θυμιατήριον καὶ θες ἐπ’ αὐτὴν πῦρ ἀπὸ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου
καὶ ἐπιθὲς θυμίαμα
καὶ ἄνελθε ταχὺ πρὸς τὴν συναγωγὴν καὶ ἱλάσθητι περὶ αὐτῶν
ὅτι ἐξῆλθεν ὀργὴ παρὰ κυρίου· ἤρξατο γὰρ ὁ θάνατος

Translation: "And Moses said to Aaron, 'Take the censer and place fire from the altar upon it and place incense, and go quickly to the congregation and make propitiation (hilastheti, ἱλάσθητι) for them, because wrath has gone out from the Lord; the plague has begun.'"


כפר (kpr) and ἱλάσθητι (hilastheti) again show atonement explicitly addressing divine wrath (ὀργή κυρίου, "wrath of the Lord").

The atonement act is urgently required to halt divine judgment, not merely to "cleanse" people internally.

Moses does not say "purify their consciences" but appease the wrath that is already killing people.



Numbers 16 shows that biblical atonement must address real divine wrath - not just remove human guilt.

3. Isaiah 53 — The Suffering Servant's Penal Atonement
Key Hebrew:
Isaiah 53:5–6
וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ
מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ
מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו
וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא־לָנוּ
כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ
אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ
וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ

"But He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."


Key Greek (LXX):
Isaiah 53:5–6 (LXX)
αὐτὸς δὲ ἐτραυματίσθη διὰ τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν
καὶ μεμαλάκισται διὰ τὰς ἀνομίας ἡμῶν·
παιδεία εἰρήνης ἡμῶν ἐπ’ αὐτόν·
τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν
πάντες ὡς πρόβατα ἐπλανήθημεν
ἄνθρωπος τῇ ὁδῷ αὐτοῦ ἐπλανήθη
καὶ κύριος παρέδωκεν αὐτὸν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἡμῶν

Translation: "He was wounded because of our sins, and bruised because of our lawless deeds; the punishment for our peace was upon Him, and by His wound we are healed.
All we like sheep went astray, each to his own way; and the Lord delivered Him over to our sins."



מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ (musar shelomenu) - "chastisement that brought us peace" - indicates judicial punishment transferred.

הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgi‘a) - "caused to meet" or "laid upon" - indicates substitutionary bearing of guilt.

The Greek παίδευσις εἰρήνης and παρέδωκεν (delivered over) strengthen the forensic, penal aspect.



Isaiah 53 clearly teaches that the Servant bears real penal consequences for others’ sins as an act of substitutionary atonement.



Passage Key Hebrew-Greek Terms Function of Atonement Evidence of Propitiation?
Leviticus 16 כפר / ἱλάσεται Blood on Mercy Seat for sins Yes
Numbers 16 כפר / ἱλάσθητι Atonement stops divine wrath Yes
Isaiah 53 מוסר / παίδευσις Chastisement for peace, substitution Yes

Cannot separate God's love from HIS JUSTICE! They are indissolubly echad.

And now I'm really tired.
@Dizerner
J.
There is no such thing as justice or wrath between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Nice try but a major failure.

Theology begins with God not man and his doctrines.

Gods good name and character is on trial with the heresy known as PSA.

hope this helps !!!
 
How are we to understand one member of the Trinity, the Father being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity, the Son, when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God? How does that work?
 
There is no such thing as justice or wrath between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Nice try but a major failure.

Theology begins with God not man and his doctrines.

Gods good name and character is on trial with the heresy known as PSA.

hope this helps !!!
Yes, we are all on trial-

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

J.
 
Yes, we are all on trial-

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

J.
Nice dodge we are talking within the Tri- Unity of God which your doctrine denies with PSA.
 
How are we to understand one member of the Trinity, the Father being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity, the Son, when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God? How does that work?

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

I'll let you figure this out for yourself.

J.
 
How are we to understand one member of the Trinity, the Father being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity, the Son, when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God? How does that work?

It's really not hard for God.

How did God place your sins on Jesus?

How does God cause us to be in union with Christ and crucified with Christ?

You'll give me a bunch of words, but all they will really say is "he did it."

We don't have to know HOW God does things, we just need to know WHAT God does.

This is why humility in approaching God's Word is so essential.
 
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

I'll let you figure this out for yourself.

J.
Wait.... I got it, survey says... is a phrase used on the American game show Family Feud to reveal the top answers to survey questions. The show involves teams guessing the most popular responses to survey questions to score points.

#1. question: Is PSA biblical? Most popular response, a resounding no. Please hold your applause. Anti PSA 100- Pro PSA 0
 
Wait.... I got it, survey says... is a phrase used on the American game show Family Feud to reveal the top answers to survey questions. The show involves teams guessing the most popular responses to survey questions to score points.

#1. question: Is PSA biblical? Most popular response, a resounding no. Please hold your applause. Anti PSA 100- Pro PSA 0
Frankly, your references to American game shows like Family Feud are irrelevant- what matters is what the Scriptures declare and the binding imperatives we are commanded to obey.

J.
 
Frankly, your references to American game shows like Family Feud are irrelevant- what matters is what the Scriptures declare and the binding imperatives we are commanded to obey.

J.
Didn't you yell me to figure this out for myself. Right, you did so how can it be irrelevant?
 
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