Horatius
Member
I waited patiently for the Lord; he turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the slimy pit, out of the mud and mire; he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand.
Psalm 40:1–2
PSA is defiantly slippery sand.
PSA in the early Christian church
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Psalm 40:1–2
PSA is defiantly slippery sand.
Johann
Well-known member
I just dismantled your entire premise--not with speculation or secondhand theology, but with plain, unambiguous Scripture.
Now answer this: who is the causal agent in Isaiah 53? You’ve yet to engage that question because you rely on selectively compiled data rather than personal engagement with the biblical text.
Your approach betrays a surface familiarity without substantive understanding. If you had seriously studied the passage, you would know exactly what I’m referring to. But you don’t, Civic--you lack clarity on the very text we’re discussing.
And now, your last deflection in this one-sided “debate” is to accuse me of using AI--as if that changes the fact that you haven’t answered the Scriptures.
J.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
civic
Well-known member
PSA is unbiblical never taught by Jesus and the Apostles and is anti trinitarian. It divides/separates the Father and the Son.
Its Dis-Unity not Tri-Unity.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
you would do well to try and find Isaiah 53:10 quoted in the NT.
nothing but an argument from silence proving PSA was not taught in the N.T.
your understanding of Isaiah 53 is wrong.
Johann
Well-known member
Wrong again-don't you have a cross reference tool? Here is Isaiah 53.10-and much more.
My understanding of Isaiah 53 is just fine, brought me to my knees, in utter humbleness.
Romans 10:16
“However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, ‘Lord, who has believed our report?’”
Isaiah 53:1: “Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Romans 15:21
“But as it is written: ‘They who had no news of Him shall see, and they who have not heard shall understand.’”
Isaiah 52:15 (immediately preceding Isaiah 53): “So He will sprinkle many nations, Kings will shut their mouths on account of Him; For what they had not been told, they will see...”
Though from Isaiah 52:15, it is contextually inseparable from the Isaiah 53 servant song.
Strong Allusions (Verbal and Thematic Parallels)
Romans 4:25
“He who was delivered over because of our wrongdoings, and was raised because of our justification.”
Isaiah 53:5, 11–12: “He was pierced for our transgressions… by His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many...”
Romans 5:6–8
“...Christ died for the ungodly... while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Isaiah 53:6, 12: “The Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all to fall on Him... He Himself bore the sin of many...”
2 Corinthians 5:21
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
Isaiah 53:9, 10: “He had done no violence, nor was there any deceit in His mouth... He will render Himself as a guilt offering.”
Galatians 3:13
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us...”
Echoes Isaiah 53:4–5: “Surely our griefs He Himself bore... He was pierced for our transgressions.”
Philippians 2:7–9
“...taking the form of a bond-servant... He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Isaiah 53:7–8, 12: “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth... He poured out Himself to death...”
Direct Quotations: 2 (Romans 10:16; 15:21 - the latter citing Isaiah 52:15 as part of the Servant Song context).
Strong Allusions: 5–7 instances throughout Romans, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, and Philippians.
Pauline Theology is deeply shaped by Isaiah 53's concepts of substitution, guilt offering, justification, and vicarious suffering.
Man, you are something!
J.
civic
Well-known member
Isaiah 53:10 is not quoted in the NT.
Try reading below with comprehension instead of your doctrine. Here are the O.T quotes of Isaiah 53 in the N.T.
The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)
2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)
6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)
8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
conclusion: your doctrine of PSA is built upon sinking sand and not on Christ the Solid Rock- its based on conjecture and an argument from silence in the N.T. writings.
hope this helps !!!
Those who have lost the debate always resort to baseless Ad Hominems. This is a perfect case in point.
Since when have I been dishonest? What clique are you talking about? Just because you've lost the debate does not allow you to go around telling lies about people.
civic
Well-known member
ditto a sure sign of a lost argument.
Johann
Well-known member
Selective quotations and disagree with your "conclusion" and my reading comprehension is perfectly fine--see your errors here---
You're making a fundamental mistake by equating the absence of a direct NT quotation of Isaiah 53:10 with the absence of its theological relevance.
First, let's be clear--- just because Isaiah 53:10 isn’t quoted word-for-word in the NT doesn’t mean the theology of the verse is absent. The NT constantly builds on the OT through allusions, not just quotations. You’re imposing a standard of proof the NT authors themselves didn’t use. For example, Genesis 3:15 isn’t quoted verbatim in the NT, yet it’s foundational to the entire redemptive arc.
Second, Isaiah 53:10 is absolutely penal and substitutionary---both in the Hebrew and in the LXX. The Hebrew uses the term אָשָׁם (asham), the exact Levitical word for guilt offering (see Leviticus 5:14–19; 7:1–7).
That is never just “cleansing”--it’s about a substitute bearing punishment due to another. That’s legal, covenantal, and penal language. Can't "get away from that"--
The LXX doesn’t remove that; it simply phrases it in Greek terms: πληγή (plegē) is used throughout the NT (e.g., Revelation) for a wound from a blow, not metaphorical cleansing. You’re misrepresenting the Greek.
Third, the NT does allude to Isaiah 53:10, especially in places like Romans 4:25 and 2 Corinthians 5:21.
When Paul says Christ was “delivered up for our transgressions” (Romans 4:25) and “made to be sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21), he is walking right through the door Isaiah 53 opens--God initiated the suffering of the Righteous Servant to deal with sin. That is unmistakably penal.
Also, when Peter says in 1 Peter 2:24 that “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree,” he is using sacrificial language that mirrors Isaiah 53:11–12. He’s not quoting a random verse--he’s building on a known theological foundation: the Servant bears the sins of others, willingly, and suffers for them.
Praise God man!
Finally, Acts 2:23 makes it unavoidably clear that the Cross was God’s plan--“delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God…” That’s Isaiah 53:10 all over again--“The Lord was pleased to crush Him.”
So let’s not play quote-counting games to avoid the text’s meaning.
The NT doesn’t have to cite every word of Isaiah 53 to affirm its theology. It’s all over Paul, Peter, and Acts. The penal nature of Christ’s death is both there and central--and Isaiah 53 is the engine behind it.
If you’d like, I can walk you through Isaiah 53:10 in both the Hebrew and the LXX to show it plainly.
If not, don't waste my time, I have already corrected your faulty eisegesis numerous times.
There are fellow members here on the Berean Apologetics Forum who, like myself, are in need of mutual edification and spiritual sharpening. I'm not here for a back-and-forth exchange with you.
Shalom.
J.
Cyrus
Active member
No offence, but you might try to just not respond. That would stop the problem.
civic
Well-known member
The facts are not once is Isaiah 53:10 quoted in the NT which is exactly what PSA is based upon.
I have debunked that verse and Psalm 22:1 the other verse PSA used to defend a broken Tri- Unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
My doctrines line up with the Tri- Unity of God, His nature and character. PSA advocates run away from the OP below
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
So then, you have appointed yourself as the final authority on God’s written Word, "debunking" any verse that confronts or contradicts your theological framework. But the Scriptures remain-written in the perfect tense, enduring and unalterable-for all to read. As it is written: “The Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35). Who are you, then, to tamper with what God has spoken?
Isaiah 66:2 says, “To this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite in spirit, and who trembles at My word.” Yet rather than trembling, you dissect and dismiss the parts you find uncomfortable. Instead of falling to our knees in awe over what the Messiah has accomplished, you rationalize your way around His suffering, as though you stand above the text and not under it.
Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). The Word does not bend to our preferences--it confronts us, humbles us, and saves us.
J.
I fail to see how do all these baseless and false Ad Hominem statements help the PSA cause?
Calvinists are held captive by a zero-sum false-humility mindset aberration and you might be under the same spell. I'm not saying you're a calvinist but the zero-sum aberration symptoms displayed are strikingly the same as those of calvinists.
Johann
Well-known member
Do tell me how this is not sheer baseless ad hominem material:
I personally would not say that judgmental statement to anyone, not even James White (imagine that!) because I do not know his heart.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The argument of the equivalence is easily refuted in two ways
- First, Jesus felt pain, bled and experience asphyxia and death as a man, not as God. So all references to God’s infinitude are out of scope.
- Second, if Jesus is infinite and suffering the cross equals eternal torment, then a headache also equals eternal torment (Did Jesus deserve to experience a headache for the sins of men? If he didn’t, then the headache would have been enough to atone our sins)
If the Bible truly called us to love a God who sends Sikhs to hell, you should treasure my posts and throw the Bible to the trash can.
if you don’t do it it is because you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the Bible gives no grounds to think that Sikhs will roast in hell forever.
Comic books of Spider-Man or Superman would be far more moral and commendable than the Bible if the Bible really taught what you believe.
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civic
Well-known member
This has always been my belief and position on eternal torment for the wicked, fiery hell.
The bible is very clear that there is eternal tormentfor the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.
Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'
Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,while continuing their punishment.
Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of thosewho suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fireis the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.
hope this helps !!!
