Pauls use of Predestination

[civic]

Paul uses predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5;11 to those who are already saved. Paul does not use the word for unbelievers who are predestined before the world ( false teaching of augustine, calvin ).

What Paul says we believers are predestined to is adoption, to be conformed to the image of Christ, those predestined to be conformed are those who He called, justified and glorified. Notice its believers, not unbelievers who are predestined. There is nothing about unbelievers being predestined before the world. Those who believe in Christ are those who are predestined to be conformed to Christ and adoption as sons.

No one is ever predestined to believe in Christ. Those who are already in Christ are the ones predestined to be conformed into His image and adoption as sons. The bible never says anyone that is not saved were predestined before they were saved. No one is predestined to be saved.

hope this helps !!!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Paul uses predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5;11 to those who are already saved. Paul does not use the word for unbelievers who are predestined before the world ( false teaching of augustine, calvin ).

What Paul says we believers are predestined to is adoption, to be conformed to the image of Christ, those predestined to be conformed are those who He called, justified and glorified. Notice its believers, not unbelievers who are predestined. There is nothing about unbelievers being predestined before the world. Those who believe in Christ are those who are predestined to be conformed to Christ and adoption as sons.

No one is ever predestined to believe in Christ. Those who are already in Christ are the ones predestined to be conformed into His image and adoption as sons. The bible never says anyone that is not saved were predestined before they were saved. No one is predestined to be saved.

hope this helps !!!

Paul uses predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5;11 to refer to those whom God foreknew, knew before they existed on earth, and those people he predestined, called, justified and glorified. God/Jesus doesn't wait for anyone to make a decision for salvation. He has sheep He foreknew, whom he will call, and all of His sheep will go to Him, without exception.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Paul uses predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5;11 to refer to those whom God foreknew, knew before they existed on earth, and those people he predestined, called, justified and glorified. God/Jesus doesn't wait for anyone to make a decision for salvation. He has sheep He foreknew, whom he will call, and all of His sheep will go to Him, without exception.

Hope this helps !!!

nope believers are the ones who are predestined, not unbelievers. Read the verses. Those who are believers are destined to be adopted. Nothing about predestining anyone to salvation. Those already in Christ are the ones predestined to adoption. Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 spell that out.

 

[civic]

Romans 8
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So you say. I say different. And I use the same scriptures to say different.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you say. I say different. And I use the same scriptures to say different.

Stating the obvious. However, civic is true to the actual language of the reference. You're not.

The only individual chosen was Christ. He alone is named. Believers is a state/disposition of a future cause. Thusly they are unnamed, unchosen and absent means apart from belief. Belief is the effectual cause wherein Christ becomes the means.

This is all Christ centric.... You are at the center of your self serving theology.

 

[synergy]

Stating the obvious. However, civic is true to the actual language of the reference. You're not.

The only individual chosen was Christ. He alone is named. Believers is a state/disposition of a future cause. Thusly they are unnamed, unchosen and absence means apart from belief. Belief is the effectual cause wherein Christ becomes the means.

This is all Christ centric.... You are at the center of your self serving theology.

His is a caste system of reprobates and elect. Not to mention that it promotes a state of Living Dead. What an utter disaster.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

His is a caste system of reprobates and elect. Not to mention that it promotes a state of Living Dead. What an utter disaster.

Yours is a system where you have exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worship and serve created things like man rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Because of this, God may give you over to shameful lusts.

 

[synergy]

Yours is a system where you have exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worship and serve created things like man rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Because of this, God may give you over to shameful lusts.

Your lust for strawmen and blatant lies is once again being revealed for all to see. No one here worships created things. We all worship the Creator who created us as images of Himself. You, on the other hand, lust after the degradation of us as images of God. You're nihilistic in other words.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Your lust for strawmen and blatant lies is once again being revealed for all to see. No one here worships created things. We all worship the Creator who created us as images of Himself. You, on the other hand, lust after the degradation of us as images of God. You're nihilistic in other words.

And you're a big meanie and poopy face.

 

[synergy]

And you're a big meanie and poopy face.

Your appeal to childish ad hominems confirms that you are a true calvinist, a credit to your clan.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Your appeal to childish ad hominems confirms that you are a true calvinist, a credit to your clan.

Well, you called me a liar with no evidence of said lies, so I figured I'd respond in kind. Just because I interpret the scriptures differently than you do does not make me a liar, but you didn't care.

 

[synergy]

Well, you called me a liar with no evidence of said lies, so I figured I'd respond in kind. Just because I interpret the scriptures differently than you do does not make me a liar, but you didn't care.

You said the following:

Yours is a system where you have exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worship and serve created things like man rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.

That is a blatant lie. I don't worship created things. We all worship the Creator who created us as images of Himself.

 

[TomL]

Paul uses predestination in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:5;11 to refer to those whom God foreknew, knew before they existed on earth, and those people he predestined, called, justified and glorified. God/Jesus doesn't wait for anyone to make a decision for salvation. He has sheep He foreknew, whom he will call, and all of His sheep will go to Him, without exception.

Hope this helps !!!

Sorry but Paul never says that. You assume that

In context it refers to those who God knew formerly

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

those who had loved God and were called according to his purpose

We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Cor 8:3). The word implies a love relationship between one person and another. Calvinists do recognize that Paul uses the word in this sense and so we do not need to dwell here any further on this matter.

See also

Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Paul uses the word foreknew again to refer to Old Testament saints known in the past

Romans 11:2–4 (KJV 1900) — 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You said the following:

That is a blatant lie. I don't worship created things. We all worship the Creator who created us as images of Himself.

No, it's the truth. You just don't realize that you're placing man above God. You say God is not willing that any should perish (meaning all without exception), but man is able to thwart God's will and perish anyway. Man's will therefore is more powerful than God's will.

 

[civic]

Sorry but Paul never says that. You assume that

In context it refers to those who God knew formerly

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

those who had loved God and were called according to his purpose

We must clearly understand how Paul is using the word "foreknow" in this passage. He is not talking about God looking down the corridors of time from eternity past and into the future. The idea of God knowing the future is not even present in this passage. If indeed Paul was referring to "those He foreknew," in the sense of those He knew about in the future, we would have to say he knew everyone and then we would also have to say he predestined everyone to be conformed to the image of God's Son. The word "foreknow" here is used in the sense of God knowing some people in an intimate personal relational sense, in the past, as in "Adam knew Eve" and "I never knew you." The people that God foreknows are "those who love Him" as Paul has just mentioned in the previous verse. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "if anyone loves God, he is known by Him." (1 Cor 8:3). The word implies a love relationship between one person and another. Calvinists do recognize that Paul uses the word in this sense and so we do not need to dwell here any further on this matter.

See also

Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Paul uses the word foreknew again to refer to Old Testament saints known in the past

Romans 11:2–4 (KJV 1900) — 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Well said !

 

[TomL]

Well said !

Calvinist rarely use the whole council of God in interpreting a passage

 

[TomL]

No, it's the truth. You just don't realize that you're placing man above God. You say God is not willing that any should perish (meaning all without exception), but man is able to thwart God's will and perish anyway. Man's will therefore is more powerful than God's will.

Folly

It is God's plan

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Folly

It is God's plan

John 3:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That doesn't address the reason why some believe and others don't. My point to @synergy was that if you believe this:

God's will is to save all without exception.
But God doesn't save all without exception, he leaves it up to you.

That places man's will above God's will. It's an impotent god who wants to save everyone but is unable to do so because man won't let him.

So you're stuck with two possible conclusions: Either your god is impotent, or the real God doesn't want to save all without exception.

 

[TomL]

That doesn't address the reason why some believe and others don't. My point to @synergy was that if you believe this:

God's will is to save all without exception.
But God doesn't save all without exception, he leaves it up to you.

That places man's will above God's will. It's an impotent god who wants to save everyone but is unable to do so because man won't let him.

So you're stuck with two possible conclusions: Either your god is impotent, or the real God doesn't want to save all without exception.

God desires all be saved. He will however save only those that believe. That is his plan, his will not man's and man is not overriding God's plan or will

Instead of erecting strawmen deal in fact