Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

You are conflating the physical with spiritual - they are not the same. Conflating the natural with the spiritual. The human wisdom with spiritual wisdom.
How could that be, when all I said what was said to me by @praise_yeshua:
So tell me how the son is derived from the father.
And THEN I said to him:
That's the very question that must be answer by those who hold to the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ.
The scriptures reveals to us "how" this came about by reading Luke's account in Luke 1:35.

Luke 1:35​

“And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
So, my question to you and others is:
So tell me how the son is derived from the father.
In an eternal sense ~how in the world can you can the scriptures and support your eternal generation of Jesus Christ, without destroying his Deity as the eternal God, the Everlasting Father? This cannot be done,
 
I am saying that the "Word" that was eternally existing Spirit took on the flesh and blood of the human being when he was born of the woman Mary. That is the time when the Word "became the Son".

I knew that the first time you said it. The first time that @Red Baker said it.

BIG issue.

There is a reason I've been talking about the Character of God being Immutable (Unchanging).

You don't actually believe this is true. There is a huge problem with how you think and how these other Unitarains think about God. Huge problems with how you represent Him with these "word" you pretend to represent properly. A person is only as good as what they sincerely believe. We are only as good as what we say. What we represent.

YOU are representing Jesus Christ, the Son of God as merely a man. That is what your other friends that deny his Deity are doing. You are trying to say Jesus is God but your arguments are really no different than the same arguments they make themselves.

You believe that God wasn't a Son until he was born. Big problem. You think and present a scenario where God just pretends to be something He isn't. You know "manifestations". Pretense. Vain imaginations? Men do this all the time. They pretend. This gets into concepts such as personas and theater. Make believe. Pretense. Imaginations. Not anything REAL....

There is a reason I'm a Trinitarian. It properly presents the Eternal Character of God that is real and tangible. More than just concepts.... Constructs. Substance. Reality.

When The Father speaks of loving His Son, it is based upon a Father, Son relationship that is Eternal. You believe that sons are subservient. You believe that you are the head of everything that is YOURS. The law of the One to Rule all things. Such is Satanic and contrary any ethical and moral construct of God's True Character.

You preach/teach a hollow misrepresentation of Jesus Christ. Empty. Schizophrenic.

I can't think like you do. I know the Truth.
 
I should start a new thread with the title....

The Death of the Godhead ... and who killed it?

For if you do not believe that Christ was from eternity past that is exactly what you have done.

RB told me not to write/respond to him because we are acting like fighting brothers and sisters.
So this is NOT to @Red Baker .

For those who do not believe in the eternity of the son , are you all anti-trin believers?

It is certain that if Jesus is not considered the eternal Son, it challenges the traditional understanding of the Trinity, which holds that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct yet co-eternal persons because central to the doctrine of the Trinity is that it was from before time.

And necessitates a brand new bible under this belief because much of what is in the current one
will necessitate being replace.

The very phrase that John uttered, 1:3... All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being......The "him" through which all things were made refers to the Living Word, who is Jesus. Here, John makes a powerful declaration: everything was created through Jesus.

Then John went on to state in 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

If , as John 1 states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Is something John taught...And you can prove that not only was Jesus not in the begining with God but Jesus as the Word was not either you can pretty much discount John's teachings and the book should be gone from the bible, because if false, his teachings are heretical and border on blaspheme.

Thus making the opening statement of this true, and everyone should maybe call them the dynamic duo because the third one in the Trinity did not exist but the duo did.

It certainly then had to be the HS with God when God said let us.

I had to be the HS who met moses on the mountain.

and on and on and on...........

So lets get rid of the book of John @Red Baker and all other anti trin people... and also, lets get rid of the book of James.
All the writings of John, the gospel, epistles and the revelation are a stumbling block to the anti trins. For John more than any other writer in the bible declares the eternal deity of the Son as God and Creator. Here are some of the names, titles and descriptions found in his writings below. Over 70 of them. And as we know when we compile this list we can say without exception no man can have these descriptions unless than man just so happens to be God incarnate. The Eternal Son.

The Word who was God
Savior of the World
Lord
Lord God
Lord and God
Messiah
God
YHWH-John 12:41 cf Isaiah 6:1-5
I Am- YHWH see John chapter 8
True God
True God and Eternal Life
Alpha and Omega
I Am the First and the Last
The Beginning and the End
The Almighty
The Lamb
The Lamb of God
The Word of God
Eternal Life
Life
Creator of all things
The Good Shepherd
Shepherd
The Resurrection and the Life
The Truth
The Way
The Life
True Light
Light of the world
Savior
Only Begotten God
Only Begotten Son
The Bread of Life
The Gate
The Door
The King of the Jews
The King of Israel
The King
Life is found in Him
Faith in Him results in Eternal Life
The Scriptures are all about Him(Old Testament)
Lord of the Sabbath
Whatever the Father does, that I also do
Knows the hearts and thoughts of man
Raised the dead
Raised Himself from the dead
Source of all Life- John 1:4
Forgave sin
Sinless
Holy One
Worshiped as God
Answers prayer as God
Dwells in all believers- omnipresent
Worshiped by angels
Worshiped by believers
Worshiped by those He healed
Worshiped by all creation
Worshiped together with the Father by all creation
Shares the Fathers Throne
Receives latereo and pronousko- worship due God alone
Faithful and True
Living One
Who was, is and is to come
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Lion of the tribe of Judah
Morning Star
Holds the keys of death and hades
Song of the Lamb
Praised by all creation
Honored by all creation
Glorified by all creation
All creation sings praise to Him
Son of God
Son of man

hope this helps !!!
 
YOU are representing Jesus Christ, the Son of God as merely a man.
No, I am not!! I am representing Him as the divine being (whom in John 1:1 is identified as the Word) who took on the flesh and blood of a human being. He, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, constitute God.
 
No, I am not!! I am representing Him as the divine being (whom in John 1:1 is identified as the Word) who took on the flesh and blood of a human being. He, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, constitute God.
You left out most everything I said.

Please deal with what I said. You believe the Father just pretends to be a son. That "son" isn't part of His Character. I explained what I said. Deal with what I said.

You present a schizophrenic god that talks to "himself" while pretending to be different "manifestations".

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

You know.... one big illusion without substance? Just pretend.

Makes for a "story" or "good theater" as man would see it. Nothing else.
 
All the writings of John, the gospel, epistles and the revelation are a stumbling block to the anti trins. For John more than any other writer in the bible declares the eternal deity of the Son as God and Creator. Here are some of the names, titles and descriptions found in his writings below. Over 70 of them. And as we know when we compile this list we can say without exception no man can have these descriptions unless than man just so happens to be God incarnate. The Eternal Son.

The Word who was God
Savior of the World
Lord
Lord God
Lord and God
Messiah
God
YHWH-John 12:41 cf Isaiah 6:1-5
I Am- YHWH see John chapter 8
True God
True God and Eternal Life
Alpha and Omega
I Am the First and the Last
The Beginning and the End
The Almighty
The Lamb
The Lamb of God
The Word of God
Eternal Life
Life
Creator of all things
The Good Shepherd
Shepherd
The Resurrection and the Life
The Truth
The Way
The Life
True Light
Light of the world
Savior
Only Begotten God
Only Begotten Son
The Bread of Life
The Gate
The Door
The King of the Jews
The King of Israel
The King
Life is found in Him
Faith in Him results in Eternal Life
The Scriptures are all about Him(Old Testament)
Lord of the Sabbath
Whatever the Father does, that I also do
Knows the hearts and thoughts of man
Raised the dead
Raised Himself from the dead
Source of all Life- John 1:4
Forgave sin
Sinless
Holy One
Worshiped as God
Answers prayer as God
Dwells in all believers- omnipresent
Worshiped by angels
Worshiped by believers
Worshiped by those He healed
Worshiped by all creation
Worshiped together with the Father by all creation
Shares the Fathers Throne
Receives latereo and pronousko- worship due God alone
Faithful and True
Living One
Who was, is and is to come
King of Kings
Lord of Lords
Lion of the tribe of Judah
Morning Star
Holds the keys of death and hades
Song of the Lamb
Praised by all creation
Honored by all creation
Glorified by all creation
All creation sings praise to Him
Son of God
Son of man

hope this helps !!!
But what I cannot for the life of me figure out is why that side does not want to believe suce. Is it as simple as if they do, then that IS a vote for the Trinity?
 
But what I cannot for the life of me figure out is why that side does not want to believe suce. Is it as simple as if they do, then that IS a vote for the Trinity?
The problem I have found online is this. Most people are stuck or locked into their beliefs and will not change. They draw the line in the sand and will defend it at all costs. I have been there and done that.

The problem is most are not teachable and open to correction. I have changed what I have believed in many areas of theology over the years. It’s part of growing in Christ and learning as we study Gods word.

Here is the thing most people will not do. When you sit down with God and read His word. Read it as if it’s the first time you have read the passage with no pre conceived ideas and watch the Holy Spirit teach you new things and give you insight you did not have before. When we are open and teachable then the Holy Spirit will open up His word in wonderful ways. A fresh set of eyes when we read does wonders in our understanding. Otherwise we limit or even quench the Spirits work in us.
 
You should debate an actual Trinitarian and we have several good ones on the forum.

And you do a good job defending what you believe even though you know I disagree. :)

I'm not sure what the purpose or benefit of such a debate would be for me. Every man is created and placed by God in a world with adversarial religious voices. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, the Children of Israel, even the Lord's Christ Jesus, was placed in a world with religious voices "who professed to know God" but refused to live by His Words. Your adopted "Triune God", philosophy, with your man made high days created in worship of this triune god is just one of many symptoms of a much greater problem.

The purpose of the "other voice" is to test ones Faith, defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by "works". To prove if someone "believes" and Loves God, or believes and loves another.

The creation of a "Triune God", that was so prevalent in the world of Constantine, with the pagan high days associated with worship of this Triune God has always been popular in the religious system of this world that rejects God's Word. The Spring Equinox and the goddess Ēostre, along with "good Friday", and the Winter Solstice they preserve by promoting that one of the "triad" that makes up their god, was born on Dec. 25th. This stuff has existed since before Abraham. Every human is placed in a garden where these voices exist, just as Eve was.

God warned about all of this in the Holy Scriptures over and over and over, HE had written "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God (Man of Faith) may be perfect, "throughly furnished" unto "all good works."

Jer. 10: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Every generation is born into this worlds religious system that is adversarial to the God, "of the Bible". Jesus warned of this very thing before ascending unto His God and my God.

The problem is unbelief. Without "belief" their is no Faith. Without Faith, there is no Salvation.

Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The Bible teaches of a God who details over and over and over again about the importance of Faith in His Kingdom, defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by "works". He gives us example after example of men who chose to deny themselves, and rely on God, (Faith) VS. men who chose to rely on something or someone else. Another voice, a religion, another god, their armies, their lusts, their pride, their righteousness, their schools, their priests and on and on and so forth.

This same bible prophesies of a man child, born of a virgin, "Butter and honey shall he eat, "that he may know" to refuse the evil, and choose the good", as His Father Commands. And clearly Jesus believed in the One True God who HE prayed to, who is alone able to save Him from death.

Ps. 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, "thy God", hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This is the very definition of Faith. And for His Faith, HE is hated by the religious system of the world God placed Him in.

Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

It is written in this same bible, "The Just shall live by Faith", and who is a more Just Man, ever born of a Woman than the man of Sorrows, as prophesied by the Law and Prophets.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, "like unto thee", and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words "which he shall speak" in my name, I will require it of him.

I don't know how old Jesus was when HE realized that HE was this prophesied Messiah, but we know from God's Word that when HE came to this knowledge, "he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross", the very definition of FAITH. And for this reason, "God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:"

Truly HE is the Author and Finisher of Living Faith.

But Civic, you promote a Messiah that wasn't a man of Faith at all. A Jesus that didn't overcome sin and Temptation by Faith , defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by works", as HE instructs all other men to Live By. That He didn't overcome because HE Humbled Himself to God, like His Spirit in Shadrack and Abednego lead them to do, or like the Scriptures teach us HE did. You promote "another Jesus".

A Jesus who just faked being a man of faith, but really overcame temptations because HE was 100% God and reserved for Himself God powers HE Withheld from all other humans. A Jesus who faked His Own Death because HE wasn't a man at all, but 100% God who can't be tempted, can't sin, and can't die. A Jesus who Glorified Himself above all other Humans by withholding from them powers that HE Himself relied on, to overcome in this world. Powers HE could have given them as HE had been given power over all flesh, by who HE called, "The One True God".

This Philosophy demeans His Life, discredits God's Word along with Jesus' total dedication and commitment to His Father and makes a mockery of the Faith that HE Authored, and Proved by living in it, which brought about His Resurrection by His Father, to finish God's Salvation plan for mankind. He became the "The Firstborn of the dead", BY FAITH in HIS God.

But you are promoting a religion who doesn't believe in the God of Abraham. That rejects His Instruction in righteousness, choosing instead to walk in your own righteousness. A religion that rejects God's Judgments and Statutes the Jesus "of the bible" walked in and instructed me to walk in, choosing instead to promote the philosophies of this world's religious system.

Whether God is a "Quad-God" a "Tri-God" or a "Bi-God", or as Jesus teaches, the One True God, it is clear that this world's religious system rejects His Judgments, Laws and Statutes, that they might teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

This is the world God placed me and Abraham in, and these are the "other voices" "who come in Christ's Name" that we are warned about. A world that rejects God's Judgments, but does so "in Christ's Name".

The debate should be about this world's religious system VS. what the God of the bible, that Jesus loved, worshipped, prayed to and obeyed, actually teaches. The "Triune god" philosophy is merely a symptom of a much greater deception. Which is the root of all unrighteousness, that is, that God's Word can not be trusted, that men must adopt the philosophies of "Another voice" in the garden HE placed us in, and don't worry, no evil will come upon you, you shall surely not die.
 
I'm not sure what the purpose or benefit of such a debate would be for me. Every man is created and placed by God in a world with adversarial religious voices. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, the Children of Israel, even the Lord's Christ Jesus, was placed in a world with religious voices "who professed to know God" but refused to live by His Words. Your adopted "Triune God", philosophy, with your man made high days created in worship of this triune god is just one of many symptoms of a much greater problem.

The purpose of the "other voice" is to test ones Faith, defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by "works". To prove if someone "believes" and Loves God, or believes and loves another.

The creation of a "Triune God", that was so prevalent in the world of Constantine, with the pagan high days associated with worship of this Triune God has always been popular in the religious system of this world that rejects God's Word. The Spring Equinox and the goddess Ēostre, along with "good Friday", and the Winter Solstice they preserve by promoting that one of the "triad" that makes up their god, was born on Dec. 25th. This stuff has existed since before Abraham. Every human is placed in a garden where these voices exist, just as Eve was.

God warned about all of this in the Holy Scriptures over and over and over, HE had written "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God (Man of Faith) may be perfect, "throughly furnished" unto "all good works."

Jer. 10: 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Every generation is born into this worlds religious system that is adversarial to the God, "of the Bible". Jesus warned of this very thing before ascending unto His God and my God.

The problem is unbelief. Without "belief" their is no Faith. Without Faith, there is no Salvation.

Heb. 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The Bible teaches of a God who details over and over and over again about the importance of Faith in His Kingdom, defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by "works". He gives us example after example of men who chose to deny themselves, and rely on God, (Faith) VS. men who chose to rely on something or someone else. Another voice, a religion, another god, their armies, their lusts, their pride, their righteousness, their schools, their priests and on and on and so forth.

This same bible prophesies of a man child, born of a virgin, "Butter and honey shall he eat, "that he may know" to refuse the evil, and choose the good", as His Father Commands. And clearly Jesus believed in the One True God who HE prayed to, who is alone able to save Him from death.

Ps. 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, "thy God", hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This is the very definition of Faith. And for His Faith, HE is hated by the religious system of the world God placed Him in.

Is. 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

It is written in this same bible, "The Just shall live by Faith", and who is a more Just Man, ever born of a Woman than the man of Sorrows, as prophesied by the Law and Prophets.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, "like unto thee", and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words "which he shall speak" in my name, I will require it of him.

I don't know how old Jesus was when HE realized that HE was this prophesied Messiah, but we know from God's Word that when HE came to this knowledge, "he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross", the very definition of FAITH. And for this reason, "God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:"

Truly HE is the Author and Finisher of Living Faith.

But Civic, you promote a Messiah that wasn't a man of Faith at all. A Jesus that didn't overcome sin and Temptation by Faith , defined as "Unconditional belief in God, shown by works", as HE instructs all other men to Live By. That He didn't overcome because HE Humbled Himself to God, like His Spirit in Shadrack and Abednego lead them to do, or like the Scriptures teach us HE did. You promote "another Jesus".

A Jesus who just faked being a man of faith, but really overcame temptations because HE was 100% God and reserved for Himself God powers HE Withheld from all other humans. A Jesus who faked His Own Death because HE wasn't a man at all, but 100% God who can't be tempted, can't sin, and can't die. A Jesus who Glorified Himself above all other Humans by withholding from them powers that HE Himself relied on, to overcome in this world. Powers HE could have given them as HE had been given power over all flesh, by who HE called, "The One True God".

This Philosophy demeans His Life, discredits God's Word along with Jesus' total dedication and commitment to His Father and makes a mockery of the Faith that HE Authored, and Proved by living in it, which brought about His Resurrection by His Father, to finish God's Salvation plan for mankind. He became the "The Firstborn of the dead", BY FAITH in HIS God.

But you are promoting a religion who doesn't believe in the God of Abraham. That rejects His Instruction in righteousness, choosing instead to walk in your own righteousness. A religion that rejects God's Judgments and Statutes the Jesus "of the bible" walked in and instructed me to walk in, choosing instead to promote the philosophies of this world's religious system.

Whether God is a "Quad-God" a "Tri-God" or a "Bi-God", or as Jesus teaches, the One True God, it is clear that this world's religious system rejects His Judgments, Laws and Statutes, that they might teach for doctrines the commandments of men.

This is the world God placed me and Abraham in, and these are the "other voices" "who come in Christ's Name" that we are warned about. A world that rejects God's Judgments, but does so "in Christ's Name".

The debate should be about this world's religious system VS. what the God of the bible, that Jesus loved, worshipped, prayed to and obeyed, actually teaches. The "Triune god" philosophy is merely a symptom of a much greater deception. Which is the root of all unrighteousness, that is, that God's Word can not be trusted, that men must adopt the philosophies of "Another voice" in the garden HE placed us in, and don't worry, no evil will come upon you, you shall surely not die.
I can say the same things about your religion. You make many assumptions. Maybe you are the one who is deceived and do not know it.
 
Yes, on purpose. Stupidly, you keep saying what I believe. Try saying what you believe. At least maybe you could defend that.
I know what your words mean. That is why you say them right? To communicate thought?

Words have meaning. Words build things. You're not the first person to tell me what you're saying.

I have endless been saying what I believe. I contrasted what you believe against what I believe. Don't "pretend" otherwise.
 
But what I cannot for the life of me figure out is why that side does not want to believe suce. Is it as simple as if they do, then that IS a vote for the Trinity?

It is the separation that the Eternal Son brings to humanity. It is all about character. The Son reveals what people are and what they're not.

Most people don't like this at all. It is a revelation they don't want to see or know.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The relationship between the Father and the Son is Perfect. United in perfect Character with one another.

Have you ever tried to pass your character to another? A nearly impossible task. It is doomed from the beginning if you're not really what you say you are. They present God as a hypocrite in relationship.
 
There are in Christendom many forms of denying the Son, some straightforward, some subtle. Unitarianism comprehends many varieties of disbelief in the Deity of Christ. Christadelphianism and similarly perverted creeds deny the eternal Sonship of Christ, teaching that the “title,” Son of God, should only be predicated of the human nature, born in time. The adherents of Christian Science, and those of some other modern cults, hold in a restricted sense that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, but all of them deny that He was such from all eternity, that is, in virtue of His Own Essential Being.
 
It is the separation that the Eternal Son brings to humanity. It is all about character. The Son reveals what people are and what they're not.

Most people don't like this at all. It is a revelation they don't want to see or know.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The relationship between the Father and the Son is Perfect. United in perfect Character with one another.

Have you ever tried to pass your character to another? A nearly impossible task. It is doomed from the beginning if you're not really what you say you are. They present God as a hypocrite in relationship.
Yes the very god of this world has blinded them to the Glory that is hidden in Christ as per 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Its veiled from them. Just as Christ hid His true identity from the masses and revealed it to His disciples. Those who deny His deity are exactly like the pharisees in Jesus day who also deined Him and He offended them with His true claims. The hatred is the same, the parallels are the same. The same unitarian pharisees in Jesus day are the modern ones in our day. Same beliefs, different era.

No matter how much they claim to "love" God as Jesus said they are serving their father, the devil since they deny Him.

There same unitarians would crucify Jesus if He were posting on this forum, they would insult Him worse that they insult us.
 
No God does not have a SOUL. God is Spirit. That Spirit is comprised of the three divine beings, the Father, the Son (Word if you prefer) and the Holy Spirit.
GINOLJC, to all.
Well, let God speak to this then. this is God speaking. Isaiah 1:14 "Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

are you calling God a liar?

101G.
 
GINOLJC, to all.
Well, let God speak to this then. this is God speaking. Isaiah 1:14 "Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them."

are you calling God a liar?

101G.

Good catch. However, you're mistaken. The word simply means "life". God passed to man in Adam some sense of "life" in breathing into man the breath of "LIFE".

Most people conflate terms but have very little substance to the "word associations" they use.

The "life" of God, is different.
 
Brilliant point. I think we agree on this particular point, too. Wow. Jesus called God a "He" and not a "they" or "them." That's very easy to understand that God isn't a compound being or group of persons. Jesus believed the one and only God is the Father. Jesus' God is YHWH so that's what I follow too. We must believe Jesus was right about who God is.
Greeting Run,
not so fast, listen to what you're saying.
A. Correct, the Lord Jesus out of his own mouth said, God is a "HE".
B. Correct. "God isn't a compound being or group of persons". but he is a "Plurality" of himself, meaning that he is the EQUAL SHARE of himself in the Ordinal Designation of "TIME", "ORDER", "PLACE", and "RANK". which is better known as "Diversity".
C. Incorrect, "Jesus believed the one and only God is the Father"..... who is the Son in a Diverse and G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state, while in flesh bone and blood.
D. "God is YHWH so that's what I follow too." God who is I AM THAT I AM is JESUS, both the Father, and the Son. per Isaiah 41:4 complimented by and revealed by Isaiah 48:12. the term "ALSO" in Isaiah 48:12 seals the deal on WHO IS GOD.

yes we must believe everything the Lord Jesus says.

be blessed.

101G.
 
Good catch. However, you're mistaken. The word simply means "life". God passed to man in Adam some sense of "life" in breathing into man the breath of "LIFE".

Most people conflate terms but have very little substance to the "word associations" they use.

The "life" of God, is different.
(smile), Oh my God, you have no clue... do you?
A. God is LIFE, and the SOURCE of all Life. and get this, God have a body from the BEGINNING. Listen and LEARN. read please, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

Now, P.Y. THINK, how much time is to God? answer all time... correct, did not God make prophecies of his coming in flesh from the beginning. listen, 1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

do you understand any of this? the bible of the OT is prophecy. let 101G give you some understanding. listen carefully.
Man is the IMAGE of God correct. how can an IMAGE exist without the SOURCE? .... THINK MAN, ..... now read Isaiah 46:10a again, "Declaring the end from the beginning" ..... knowing that do God have a ... "BODY?" in the END, YES or NO.

101G.
 
(smile), Oh my God, you have no clue... do you?
A. God is LIFE, and the SOURCE of all Life. and get this, God have a body from the BEGINNING. Listen and LEARN. read please, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

So there is an end with God? Or is there an end with man?

I do think. I can't think like you anymore. I pay attention to what I read.

Now, P.Y. THINK, how much time is to God? answer all time... correct, did not God make prophecies of his coming in flesh from the beginning. listen, 1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Okay. If you've been paying attention to what I said in the Predestination thread, I've been dealing with this. Predestination involves the Eternal nature of the Son and His Eternal qualities/character.

do you understand any of this? the bible of the OT is prophecy. let 101G give you some understanding. listen carefully.
Man is the IMAGE of God correct. how can an IMAGE exist without the SOURCE? .... THINK MAN, ..... now read Isaiah 46:10a again, "Declaring the end from the beginning" ..... knowing that do God have a ... "BODY?" in the END, YES or NO.

101G.

I'm glad you asked. I actually believe in the preincarnate bodily form of the Eternal Son. It wasn't flesh but it is a tangible material construct that Jesus revealed in the Transfiguration.

I don't expect everyone to believe this and it isn't essential to Trinitarianism. It is what I believe.
 
@Red Baker I will let Dr MacArthur correct your erroneous view of the Son. He once held to your false beliefs. But unlike you he was teachable and open to correction.

Can we say the same thing about you ?

Are you open to correction like John MacArthur ?

Or will pride/ego get in the way ?

I've often wished for the opportunity to review and amend all my own published material, but I doubt I'll ever have the time or the energy to undertake the task. In this day of electronic recordings, my "published" material includes not just the books I have written but also nearly every sermon I have ever preached—about 3,000 of them so far. It's far too much material to be able to critique exhaustively the way I wish I could.

Not that I would make sweeping or wholesale revisions. Throughout my ministry, my theological perspective has remained fundamentally unchanged. The basic doctrinal statement I subscribe to today is the same one I affirmed when I was ordained to the ministry almost 40 years ago. I am not someone whose convictions are easily malleable. I trust I am not a reed shaken in the wind, or the kind of person who is naively tossed about by various winds of doctrine.

But at the same time, I do not want to be resistant to growth and correction, especially when my comprehension of Scripture can be sharpened. If more precise understanding on an important point of doctrine demands a change in my thinking—even if it means amending or correcting already-published material—I want to be willing to make the necessary changes.

I have made many such revisions over the years, often taking measures to delete erroneous or confusing statements from my own tapes, and sometimes even preaching again through portions of Scripture with a better understanding of the text. Whenever I have changed my opinion on any significant doctrinal issue, I have sought to make my change of opinion, and the reasons for it, as clear as possible.

To that end, I want to state publicly that I have abandoned the doctrine of "incarnational sonship." Careful study and reflection have brought me to understand that Scripture does indeed present the relationship between God the Father and Christ the Son as an eternal Father-Son relationship. I no longer regard Christ's sonship as a role He assumed in His incarnation.

My earlier position arose out of my study of Hebrews 1:5, which appears to speak of the Father's begetting the Son as an event that takes place at a point in time: "This day have I begotten thee"; "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son" (emphasis added).

That verse presents some very difficult concepts. "Begetting" normally speaks of a person's origin. Moreover, sons are generally subordinate to their fathers. I therefore found it difficult to see how an eternal Father-Son relationship could be compatible with perfect equality and eternality among the Persons of the Trinity. "Sonship," I concluded, bespeaks the place of voluntary submission to which Christ condescended at His incarnation (cf. Phil. 2:5-8; John 5:19).

My aim was to defend, not in any way to undermine, Christ's absolute deity and eternality. And I endeavored from the beginning to make that as clear as possible.

Nonetheless, when I first published my views on the subject (in my 1983 commentary on Hebrews), a few outspoken critics accused me of attacking the deity of Christ or questioning His eternality. In 1989 I responded to those charges in a plenary session of the annual convention of the Independent Fundamental Churches of America (the denomination that ordained me). Shortly after that session, to explain my views further, I wrote an article titled "The Sonship of Christ" (published in 1991 in booklet form).

In both instances I reemphasized my unqualified and unequivocal commitment to the biblical truth that Jesus is eternally God. The "incarnational sonship" view, while admittedly a minority opinion, is by no means rank heresy. The heart of my defense of the view consisted of statements that affirmed as clearly as possible my absolute commitment to the evangelical essentials of Christ's deity and eternality.

Still, controversy continued to swirl around my views on "incarnational sonship," prompting me to reexamine and rethink the pertinent biblical texts. Through that study I have gained a new appreciation for the significance and the complexity of this issue. More important, my views on the matter have changed. Here are two major reasons for my change of opinion:

1. I am now convinced that the title "Son of God" when applied to Christ in Scripture always speaks of His essential deity and absolute equality with God, not His voluntary subordination. The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time understood this perfectly. John 5:18 says they sought the death penalty against Jesus, charging Him with blasphemy "because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

In that culture, a dignitary's adult son was deemed equal in stature and privilege with his father. The same deference demanded by a king was afforded to his adult son. The son was, after all, of the very same essence as his father, heir to all the father's rights and privileges—and therefore equal in every significant regard. So when Jesus was called "Son of God," it was understood categorically by all as a title of deity, making Him equal with God and (more significantly) of the same essence as the Father. That is precisely why the Jewish leaders regarded the title "Son of God" as high blasphemy.

If Jesus' sonship signifies His deity and utter equality with the Father, it cannot be a title that pertains only to His incarnation. In fact, the main gist of what is meant by "sonship" (and certainly this would include Jesus' divine essence) must pertain to the eternal attributes of Christ, not merely the humanity He assumed.

2. It is now my conviction that the begetting spoken of in Psalm 2 and Hebrews 1 is not an event that takes place in time. Even though at first glance Scripture seems to employ terminology with temporal overtones ("this day have I begotten thee"), the context of Psalm 2:7 seems clearly to be a reference to the eternal decree of God. It is reasonable to conclude that the begetting spoken of there is also something that pertains to eternity rather than a point in time. The temporal language should therefore be understood as figurative, not literal.

Most theologians recognize this, and when dealing with the sonship of Christ, they employ the term "eternal generation." I'm not fond of the expression. In Spurgeon's words, it is "a term that does not convey to us any great meaning; it simply covers up our ignorance." And yet the concept itself, I am now convinced, is biblical. Scripture refers to Christ as "the only begotten of the Father" (John 1:14; cf. v. 18; 3:16, 18; Heb. 11:17). The Greek word translated "only begotten" is monogenes. The thrust of its meaning has to do with Christ's utter uniqueness. Literally, it may be rendered "one of a kind"—and yet it also clearly signifies that He is of the very same essence as the Father. This, I believe, is the very heart of what is meant by the expression "only begotten."

To say that Christ is "begotten" is itself a difficult concept. Within the realm of creation, the term "begotten" speaks of the origin of one's offspring. The begetting of a son denotes his conception—the point at which he comes into being. Some thus assume that "only begotten" refers to the conception of the human Jesus in the womb of the virgin Mary. Yet Matthew 1:20 attributes the conception of the incarnate Christ to the Holy Spirit, not to God the Father. The begetting referred to in Psalm 2 and John 1:14 clearly seems to be something more than the conception of Christ's humanity in Mary's womb.

And indeed, there is another, more vital, significance to the idea of "begetting" than merely the origin of one's offspring. In the design of God, each creature begets offspring "after his kind" (Gen. 1:11-12, 21-25). The offspring bear the exact likeness of the parent. The fact that a son is generated by the father guarantees that the son shares the same essence as the father.

I believe this is the sense Scripture aims to convey when it speaks of the begetting of Christ by the Father. Christ is not a created being (John 1:1-3). He had no beginning but is as timeless as God Himself. Therefore, the "begetting" mentioned in Psalm 2 and its cross-references has nothing to do with His origin.

But it has everything to do with the fact that He is of the same essence as the Father. Expressions like "eternal generation," "only begotten Son," and others pertaining to the filiation of Christ must all be understood in this sense: Scripture employs them to underscore the absolute oneness of essence between Father and Son. In other words, such expressions aren't intended to evoke the idea of procreation; they are meant to convey the truth about the essential oneness shared by the Members of the Trinity.

My previous view was that Scripture employed Father-Son terminology anthropomorphically—accommodating unfathomable heavenly truths to our finite minds by casting them in human terms. Now I am inclined to think that the opposite is true: Human father-son relationships are merely earthly pictures of an infinitely greater heavenly reality. The one true, archetypical Father-Son relationship exists eternally within the Trinity. All others are merely earthly replicas, imperfect because they are bound up in our finiteness, yet illustrating a vital eternal reality.

If Christ's sonship is all about His deity, someone will wonder why this applies to the Second Member of the Trinity alone, and not to the Third. After all, we don't refer to the Holy Spirit as God's Son, do we? Yet isn't He also of the same essence as the Father?

Of course He is. The full, undiluted, undivided essence of God belongs alike to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is but one essence; yet He exists in three Persons. The three Persons are co-equal, but they are still distinct Persons. And the chief characteristics that distinguish between the Persons are wrapped up in the properties suggested by the names Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Theologians have labeled these properties paternity, filiation, and spiration. That such distinctions are vital to our understanding of the Trinity is clear from Scripture. How to explain them fully remains something of a mystery.

In fact, many aspects of these truths may remain forever inscrutable, but this basic understanding of the eternal relationships within the Trinity nonetheless represents the best consensus of Christian understanding over many centuries of Church history. I therefore affirm the doctrine of Christ's eternal sonship while acknowledging it as a mystery into which we should not expect to pry too deeply.
 
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