Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
@civic
1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic
So far you have not even consider not even one my my points above which you must do if there's even a debate moving forward.
I will address this one post, and then wait until you address my post above.
The glory the Word had before He was made flesh is his DEITY as God ~ the Word NEVER lost never lost that glory, and never needed to be restored! Jesus Christ was indeed fully God and fully man, being a complex person, with two distinct natures.
However God sent Jesus into the world, He sent His disciples the same way (John 17:18). However God sent His Son, He sent His servants the same way before Him (Matthew 21:33-39) .Again, when was John the Baptist sent from God? Before or after he was born to Elisabeth? Isaiah illustrates how a man is sent by God~ called to service (Isaiah 6:8; Romans 10:15) The Son God sent forth to redeem was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4). Note the grammar!
This is yet future, and truly a weak verse to even considering using to support your unscriptural position of Jesus' eternal Sonship.
Before I go much farther with you we must agree on what constitute an honest debate. As I have said before, even recently there are only:
Two intellectually-honest tactics
There are only two intellectually-honest debate tactics:1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic
So far you have not even consider not even one my my points above which you must do if there's even a debate moving forward.
I will address this one post, and then wait until you address my post above.
There is not a word in John 17:1 that even remotely points to Jesus' Sonship before Luke's account, not even close.
John 17:5
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”The glory the Word had before He was made flesh is his DEITY as God ~ the Word NEVER lost never lost that glory, and never needed to be restored! Jesus Christ was indeed fully God and fully man, being a complex person, with two distinct natures.
You are wrong, the Word was NOT Jesus, the Word was God without qualification. You are adding the word Son to John 1:1 when it is not there. The Son of God was conceived and born in this world. Unless you can prove with the scriptures how he became the Son before Luke 1. If not, then I must stay witht he scriptures and God's testimony concerning the birth of His Son.
God sent John the Baptist into the world, yet that does not prove that he is the literal eternal prophet of God!
John 1:6
“There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.”However God sent Jesus into the world, He sent His disciples the same way (John 17:18). However God sent His Son, He sent His servants the same way before Him (Matthew 21:33-39) .Again, when was John the Baptist sent from God? Before or after he was born to Elisabeth? Isaiah illustrates how a man is sent by God~ called to service (Isaiah 6:8; Romans 10:15) The Son God sent forth to redeem was made of a woman (Galatians 4:4). Note the grammar!
Really? Keep reading....
Daniel 3:28
“Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.”No one would deny that there are prophecy concerning God's Son yet to come. John did just that 1st John 1:1,2, once he became flesh and blood.
Those who see an allusion to eternal generation here have found only an illusion. Their desperate efforts to support Origen’s hallucination are again found wanting again. God did not yet have a son, for the Word had not yet been made flesh (Luke 1:35; John 1:14). David and Isaiah knew God’s Son was future (Psalm 89:19-37; Isaiah 7:14;9:6). As in the personification of wisdom (Proverbs 8:22-31), many seek mystical or spiritual allusions where there are none.
Daniel 7:13
“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.”This is yet future, and truly a weak verse to even considering using to support your unscriptural position of Jesus' eternal Sonship.
This scriptures does not even come close proving Jesus Eternal Sonship. You got to do better than what you are doing, or you will lose some folks who want to beleive what you believe. The same is true of your next two verses you posted.
I'm going to pick up here later,
@civic
You said: "Being a Father implies a Son"
Civic, besides the scripture not supporting the eternal Sonship heresy, these six words are one of the reasons why we must reject the eternal generation of Jesus Christ, for it clearly denies Jesus' Deity as God. This was one of my point above, where I said:
There's a few problems here, very serious problems to deal with, not for me, but for you.
You said: "Being a Father implies a Son"
Civic, besides the scripture not supporting the eternal Sonship heresy, these six words are one of the reasons why we must reject the eternal generation of Jesus Christ, for it clearly denies Jesus' Deity as God. This was one of my point above, where I said:
So, I agree with what you said: "Being a Father implies a Son" But, you stop way short of your definition, and any rational being can see that Eternal generation of Jesus Christ is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. You are holding to a position that the devil has robbed you of even using any kind of rational thinking to see your error and serious on top of that, since you are robbing Christ of His Deity of being the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, etc.
A couple of thoughts: God never spoke to the OT father's by Christ? Why not civic? Simply because he was not yet born! Yet post Matthew one, he now has spoken unto us BY HIS SON! Jesus Christ did indeed created all things, in his Deity as the Eternal God.
You keep saying this does not make it true. Only in his Deity AS GOD he is eternal.
You are more than welcome to take the scriptures and prove when Jesus became the Son of God, I know when, because we have God's testimony as to when he became the Son of God; and we know his mother's name; we actually know where he was born, (Micah 5:2) all from God's very own testimony; and unless you can prove from the scriptures these same truths, then you are holding to a false teaching that truly denies Jesus' Deity as the Everlasting Father per Isaiah 9:6
@civic
That's yet to be seen. You have not met the right person as of yet, if that's your thinking. No man living can defend the eternal generation of Jesus Christ, no man, not even devils! Devils like to think they can since in truth it destroys Christ's Deity to even confess it man even worse to glory in it.
@praise_yeshua
In his Deity as God he is the Father of all things.
Not me, the prophet Isaiah did.
Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”In his Deity as God he is the Father of all things.
Colossians 1:16
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”It certainly is not because of predestination. And it is not because God knew they would love Him. God's foreknowledge is not causative. Those that love God do so because they believe in God.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know why Isaiah did it. I don't know why you do? Can you explain further than just "I read Isaiah do it".
I know other prophets that didn't. Other apostles. Other writings that didn't do the same. Isaiah must have been trying to get a point across.
Isaiah mentioned other names. Do you use those as well?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Just a belief out of the blue yonder or you have a reason for this claim?
Also, might you not consider "A Spirit" is the Son in your own beliefs?
civic
Active Member
I'm glad you brought up Isaiah since he saw the Sons Glory in his day.
John 12:41
These things Isaiah said, because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him
Isaiah 6:1-10
In the year of King, Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. 2 Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,,
The whole earth is full of His glory."
4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. 5 Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!,
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;,
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."
One need only follow the pronouns and the verbs. Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH. There is only ONE time that Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH; its in Ish 6. John says that Isaiah saw "his" glory, the glory of Jesus.
The verb Isaiah used for "saw" in 6;1 is רָאָה ("ra'ah"). In the qal, it refers to the act of seeing in the literal sense, to see with the eyes (as opposed to, for example, מַחֲזֶה "machazeh", which is the act or event of an ecstatic "vision"). In referring to this event, John uses the Greek word εἶδον ("eidon") - also a verb referring to the act of seeing with the eyes in the natural sense.
We know that God the Father is invisible, "whom no man hath seen, nor can see" (1 Tim 6:16). He is transcendent and lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim 6:16). But the Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Col 1:15). Thus the one whom Isaiah "saw" in the literal sense with his eyes is the one whom he explicitly identified as "YHWH" - the same one whose glory he saw according to John (Jn 12:41). Jesus himself makes this clear at v.45 "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."
There is only ONE time when Isaiah saw someone he, speaking by the Holy Spirit identified as "YHWH", and John's spirit-inspired narrative of the interactions of Jesus with the Jews in the 11th and 12th chapter of his gospel, including their rejection of Christ, says that what Isaiah saw was HIS (ie Jesus') glory. This works in perfect harmony with John's whole purpose, given the FACT that John had previously identified the one who became flesh and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14) as "God" (Jn 1:1). Nowhere in the context of this narrative (ie Ch 12) does John speak of Christ's "glorification" in his rejection and crucifixion. To claim that this is what John was talking about in referring to what Isaiah SAW with his eyes ignores the grammar and the immediate context, including the clear and unmistakable words of Christ himself in that very context.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
You are projecting again. Actually the one who denies the Eternal Son is believing a heresy since the Son is the 2nd Person in the Trinity. I have provided plenty of passages showing the Sons pre existence before He became flesh but you reject them just like every other unitarian does on this forum.
Then after His birth as a man you promote Modalism. The Deity is One Person in different modes of operation.
What a mess.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
The biggest danger in my mind of Modalism is this puppet mentality of God that goes along with self centered theologies such as this.
The Love and Unity that exists among Holy Trinity is true to a Character in the Trinity worthy of following.
civic
Active Member
Amen and the reality is @Red Baker god cannot be love. God is love becomes a lie. God as Triune is why scripture declares God is love for the eternal existing love between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is a relational love. A 1 person god cannot be love or know and experience love. It takes a minimum of 2 persons to know and experience love.
Both the unitarian and modalist are up a creek without a paddle.
civic
Active Member
A unitarian god cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That god is incapable of love for the scriptures declare that God is love. It is impossible for that god to love for there was nothing to love before creation. This god would need created beings to love him out of something lacking within his very nature. For someone to love there must be another to share in that love.
God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within His own Being. This is only possible if He is a Tri-Personal God whom the scriptures declare to be The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. For a unitarian/solitary god that is impossible. It is an oxymoron.
The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A false god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one to love. That god is void of love by nature. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love.
God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.
Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.
When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.
Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.
Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.
In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.
Conclusion:God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God. The Tri-Unity of God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit is why the Modalists god and Unitarians god is a false god. God is Love demands there is a Plural God. @Red Baker its time to repent of your false teachings about God and join the team.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I'm rather certain that Satan is all about Himself. When Satan loves, it is empty. Hollow. Self serving. Satan can not know what real love is. He only loves those that love him. Satan can not see himself in others. Satan has no equals.
They blur the lines between good and evil in their theology. Always have.
Empathy is where a worthy theology begins. The Holy Trinity has always had a relationship that thrives in empathy. God showed empathy from His very Character when He declared....
"Let us make man in OUR own image and after our own likeness".
civic
Active Member
I think at one point in time when he was created prior to the fall he knew what love was but maybe I'm wrong. The reason being after the fall he perverted love and it was all self centered and gratified himself whereas Gods love is focused on others, not self. Thats why the Tri-Unity of God is a perfect love. The Father loves the Son, the Holy Spirit. The Son loves the Father, Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit loves the Father, Son. A perfect triangle of love. And the husband loves the wife, children, the wife love the husband children, the children love the Father, Mother. A perfect Triangle of love that reflects Gods divine love. The family was designed to reflect God. Just like the church family is to reflect God. Jesus said all men will know you are my disciples by your love for one another. The way we love reflects how we love God. Its a mirror image.
Jesus is John 17 talks about that eternal existing love between the Father/ Son before creation and the love being passed on to the disciples.
I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
This is a great topic but I fear it will fall upon many deaf ears. @Red Baker
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
In His diety, in the OT it says he was sent by the father.
so how can this happen?
Isaiah 48: 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. 13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together. 14 '"All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. 15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper. 16 Come ye near unto me, Hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I, and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Lord God. is this not the father?
Also. When jesus walked. he said he did what the father told him. If Jesus is the father. did he talk to himself? and then who is the spirit?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
for a relational God could you imagine how horrific this would be.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
if the word (Jesus) was God.
and if he was with God.
and they were there at the begining (creation)
