Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"

[Red Baker]

@Eternally-Grateful

I do not respond to long drawn out posts.. If you have actual questions please ask..

Just go to them and pick out whatever...they are not that long.

I'll be off line for while..... back later..

 

[praise_yeshua]

Count me out.

I will not be posting mush because I am being taught by @praise_yeshua and @101G and I will just be reading only because
they have decided they alone know the Bible and they are going to teach me.

So , sorry you have been sick. Most everyone I know has some problems these days.

So I just hope and pray I can just read..... perhaps View attachment 2254 will keep my mouth shut.

You don't have to listen to me. Make your own choices. @101G is assertive. We argue from time to time. I do with everyone. No exceptions. I believe freedom includes allowing others to be wrong. I'm not trying to restrict you in any way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus was sent by the father, and the father will send the HS

they are different persons..

We just read the word in interpret what we see.

God did not send himself. and he is not going to send another one of himself after himself returns to heaven

Slight correction here.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Spirit was sent by the Son. This presents the Unity of the Holy Trinity in purpose. Unitarians do not like this verse nor....

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Spirit of God shall Glorify the Son.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Eternally-Grateful

You do not know the Greek no more than anyone else here. Besides, Jesus in his Deity is from everlasting to everlasting, so there.

Also, does this mean that the Greek by nature should have a better understanding of the scriptures than you, or, myself, or anyone else who is not a Greek by nature? How foolish to even think this.

How foolish is it to think English means anything to the Scriptures?

Yes. Greek speaking people understand the Textus Receptus better than King James did. King James hired his own translators and ran them all through his archbishop Richard Bancroft.

Besides. The Textus Receptus was an edited collection of writings.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Civic, I'm sure you do hate agreeing with a heretic, yet your understanding of the eternal generation, Sonship doctrine of Jesus Christ, truly allows them a perfect opportunity to teach their heresy of Jesus being a begotten god. You cannot escape that conclusion even if you try to do so, you have trapped yourself. And they know this to be so, even though they will never tell you, until you think you have them back into a corner, then they will use the this to escape from you and rightly so. You have a problem on your hand to deal with, and there's no way to escape for you, you have done it to yourself by embracing a doctrine you cannot defend from the word of God. Again consider carefully:

"If " Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according "to his Divine" nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation ~ generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation. You and others truly are giving them a reason to teach their heresy! And you cannot prove them wrong with you eternal Sonship teaching.

What you just wrote is contrary to any sense of Immutability. Do you believe God is Immutable? Is the Son Immutable?

 

[Obadiah]

The Holy Spirit is my translator. He leads us into all truth. Jesus is the Living Word and the Truth.

 

[Red Baker]

@Fred

# 52, 64, 78, 79, 122, and 123. So far no one has done so. Thanks.

Two intellectually-honest tactics​

There are only two intellectually-honest debate tactics:

1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts

2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

So far you have not even consider not even one my my points above which you must do if there's even a debate moving forward.

I will address this one post, and then wait until you address my post above.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Holy Spirit is my translator. He leads us into all truth. Jesus is the Living Word and the Truth.

I've heard that claim my entire life. I understand what you mean by it.

However, the Holy Spirit works with your own voice. You have your own voice. Most people only hear their own voice. The voice of the Spirit often speaks and we often ignore Him.

Claiming that the Holy Spirit is leading you is the same argument anyone can use if they have the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God doesn't treat you any differently that "He" treats me.

When you read the English of the KJV and you read the wrong word that was inserted by a translator, YOU will listen to the translator. Not the Spirit of God. Everyone does it. You know English... right? Who do you think you're going to actually listen to?

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Fred

So if I start with 52, you're actually going to respond?

 

[civic]

RED
@FreeInChrist

There's not one word in John 5:26 that speaks of God imparting the power to have life within Jesus Christ before he was born of flesh and blood.
For as the Father hath life in himself.

Almighty God, Father of Jesus Christ, is the ultimate Source and Power of life. He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life for him to be a living soul. He was the power in Elijah and Elisha in the cases of resurrecting two sons. The LORD Jehovah has eternal life Himself and give it to whomsoever He will.

So hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

The same independent, sovereign way God has life, He has given it to the Son, when he was made flesh, until then God had no Son. We fully agree that Jesus Christ has the sovereign authority to give or withhold life from anyone. He lives, was dead, and is alive forever (Rev 1:18). He rules hell and death. He has the key of David as Almighty King (Rev 3:7). He only opens and shuts. Jesus is the resurrection and the life in all ways ~ bodily, spiritual, and eternal.

You said: "Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this."
You are adding "eternally". @FreeInChrist, does Son and father have any meaning to you according to their true meaning?

What part? "You loved Me before the foundation of the world".

God loved the his elect before the foundation of the world, yet we were born in time. We might add, whatever glory Christ had with his father before the foundation of the earth, was in Christ's deity as the God of Genesis 1:1.

Jesus Christ was very close to God by His divine nature, begetting, and Spirit.

You said: "Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth."
You are assuming something you cannot prove. Not only that, you by these statements you are making are denying Jesus' Deity as being eternal both ways! A Son is not before the Father, impossible. I truly do not think you desire to deny Jesus' Deity, but by your statements you are. You might want to reconsider what you are saying, and I trust that you will.

Stop and think...Notice what the Lord Jesus said:
“I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.”

So, I ask you this question.... since the Jews did that which they had see with their father, does this make them eternal children in the sense you are trying to make Jesus the eternal Son of God by what he had see with his father? I do not think you want to go there with this verse!

The lesson is not His incarnational sonship as much as His unity in doctrine. Just as following the lesson is not biological connection but unity in spirit ~ the Jews did works of the devil. Like father, like son …

I'm convinced you need to study this out more than you have it seems to me.

In John 1:4 we read that life is in Him from the creation of all things standpoint.

This makes Him the very source of all life.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic @FreeInChrist @Eternally-Grateful

One more time consider these questions and I desire for those who defend the eternal Sonship doctrine to address this post.

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

Nonsensical. You claim Immutability while insisting the Son is mutable.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask ~ "How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If one speaks of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, they they must be able to comprehensibly define their terms used or confess that they are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

The Eternal Son is self descriptive. The Son is Eternal. The Son is more than flesh.

 

[Red Baker]

@praise_yeshua

So if I start with 52, you're actually going to respond?

What do you think? Of course I will, I always do. Thanks for answering, maybe you can get @civic to do the same. He said that he's the king concerning this subject with online forums, I'm beginning to doubt him. I do think he's a good man, but he's in over his head on this subject I think. We shall see. If he can give light, before God, then I would gladly accept it, and thank him for it, but, so far, he's not close.

I'm off line until later on this afternoon.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua

What do you think? Of course I will, I always do. Thanks for answering, maybe you can get @civic to do the same. He said that he's the king concerning this subject with online forums, I'm beginning to doubt him. I do think he's a good man, but he's in over his head on this subject I think. We shall see. If he can give light, before God, then I would gladly accept it, and thank him for it, but, so far, he's not close.

I'm off line until later on this afternoon.

Got it. I'm going to break some of the questioning apart in my own short responses. Please feel free to criticize and demand more if you want to take my response into a different direction.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.

Pagan teachings often loosely mirror what God has said about Himself. For example,

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice the narrative while focusing upon verse #23. They CHANGED the Truth of God into a lie. It wasn't a dramatic change. Those people began to worship the creature that Adam was and not the Creator.

It is why we must separate the context of the fleshy aspects of Christ in Adam from the preexisting Nature and Character of Jesus Christ. I'm not preposing that we separate the Person of Jesus Christ. I am simply preposing that we see the manifestation of flesh in Jesus Christ and the manifestation of the Eternal Character of Jesus Christ confined by that flesh.

In other words, Jesus Christ was more than just flesh. His flesh was at a minimum a manifestation. However, it was somewhat more than this. We can get into the details. I enjoy discussing them. Just come my way a little if you don't mind. Take the journey with me.

 

[civic]

Pagan teachings often loosely mirror what God has said about Himself. For example,

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Notice the narrative while focusing upon verse #23. They CHANGED the Truth of God into a lie. It wasn't a dramatic change. Those people began to worship the creature that Adam was and not the Creator.

It is why we must separate the context of the fleshy aspects of Christ in Adam from the preexisting Nature and Character of Jesus Christ. I'm not preposing that we separate the Person of Jesus Christ. I am simply preposing that we see the manifestation of flesh in Jesus Christ and the manifestation of the Eternal Character of Jesus Christ confined by that flesh.

In other words, Jesus Christ was more than just flesh. His flesh was at a minimum a manifestation. However, it was somewhat more than this. We can get into the details. I enjoy discussing them. Just come my way a little if you don't mind. Take the journey with me.

I was thinking of this passage earlier this morning and how many distort the image of God and come up with their own human reasoning to create a god after their own likeness. They have exchanged the truth about God for a lie. But they are unable to see it themselves. Oh the irony

 

[Peterlag]

It is because I know who he is that I am asking you

Because you do not seem to know who he is

(see how pride gets in and takes us out. When both of us can make the exact same argument against each other like here. it is a fatal argument that dies on its foundation)

I don't see the pride thing. I'm just telling the truth.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't see the pride thing. I'm just telling the truth.

then I will use the same argument

Your telling me YOUR TRUTH. I am telling you MY TRUTH.

of course the only difference is I am asking you to prove your truth.. and you keep stalling..

 

[Peterlag]

then I will use the same argument

Your telling me YOUR TRUTH. I am telling you MY TRUTH.

of course the only difference is I am asking you to prove your truth.. and you keep stalling..

Stalling? I post just as much trinity data on here as anyone if not more.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Stalling? I post just as much trinity data on here as anyone if not more.

Playing "coy".