Only the Apostles were Predestined

[atpollard]

Note in heaven the 12 foundations with the names of the 12 Apostles.

So JUDAS, son of perdition, has his name written on the foundation in heaven while Mattias and Paul are not "real Apostles"?
Revelation is such an abused book.

 

[atpollard]

In John 6 and 10 there are popular verses Calvinists like to use that we cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand. Again those are the Apostles with a capital "A". They are who the Father gave to the Son.

*cough* "Judas, son of perdition, a devil" *cough*

 

[Red Baker]

@charismaticlady

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

You might want to consider another calling, teaching scriptures is not your calling.

 

[charismaticlady]

How is it that you include Paul in John ch17? for you said it was only for the first group/apostles

After you explain this i will, together with you, explore further in the Scriptures for our benefit and all Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't say "the first group." I said the Apostles. Jesus gave that official title to Saul/Paul. And no one could snatch Paul out of the Father's hand. He died a martyr. There were others that took that title like Mathias and Barnabas, but there are still only 12 layers of foundation in heaven. I, personally, love Barnabas and doubt he ever denied Christ, and he was said to be an apostle, but his name is not on the foundation of the city in heaven.

Don't forget John 6.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[charismaticlady]

*cough* "Judas, son of perdition, a devil" *cough*

Don't forget the word "except"

 

[charismaticlady]

@charismaticlady

You might want to consider another calling, teaching scriptures is not your calling.

Perhaps you're not a worthy student.

 

[DavidTree]

I didn't say "the first group." I said the Apostles. Jesus gave that official title to Saul/Paul. And no one could snatch Paul out of the Father's hand. He died a martyr. There were others that took that title like Mathias and Barnabas, but there are still only 12 layers of foundation in heaven. I, personally, love Barnabas and doubt he ever denied Christ, and he was said to be an apostle, but his name is not on the foundation of the city in heaven.

Don't forget John 6.

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

120 Disciples of Christ received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the SAME Day with no distinction = Acts ch2

YES there are only 12 Apostles = just as you correctly pointed to in Revelation

What are you missing at this point???

Stop, Pray, then Seek in the Holy Scriptures

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

Predestination is about purpose not ‘predestined to be saved”.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

Everything and everyone is predestined - even Christ.
God knows the end from the beginning because He's ordained the end.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Everything and everyone is predestined - even Christ.
God knows the end from the beginning because He's ordained the end.

If we are predestined then why the need for faith? Why the need for baptism? Why the need to participate in Holy Communion?
Why the need for prayer? By that I mean the petition kind, not the thank you prayers.... Why read and study the Holy Scriptures
aka the Holy Bible? Why even participate in forums such as these that tend to bring out all sorts of debates and arguements?

Why the need for every thing we do in life
because as I understand predestination God would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, ... which os taught by John Calvin.

Because nothing we do or do not do will change our place in eternity. As for those not elect...well, the others would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death .And their fate is sealed.

Yes, in His foreknowledge, God knows everything from beginning to end. We are part of the plan He created.

 

[charismaticlady]

Everything and everyone is predestined - even Christ.
God knows the end from the beginning because He's ordained the end.

There is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination. And neither assures salvation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If we are predestined then why the need for faith?

There is no "need" for faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. There is no requirement for faith in the Abraham Covenant recorded in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. The only requirement from God's people is circumcision. How does that Scripture go? Why hope for something if you can see it"? Abraham and his seed are already in salvation covenant with God. But I don't discount it, I merely informing you that "faith" is not a requirement of the Abraham Covenant. Nor is faith required from the children of Israel who possess the Mosaic Promises. Or for that matter, neither is faith required in the New Covenant described in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Why the need for baptism?

There is no "need" for water baptisms. But there is a need for Spirit baptism, or one cannot be saved/born-again.

Why the need to participate in Holy Communion?

As Jesus said, my meat is to do the will of Him who sent me. It is not necessary when one is already in covenant. When God saves someone, they stay saved.

Why the need for prayer? By that I mean the petition kind, not the thank you prayers.... Why read and study the Holy Scriptures
aka the Holy Bible? Why even participate in forums such as these that tend to bring out all sorts of debates and arguements?

Prayer is important. "You" cannot have a right relationship with anyone if there is no communication. And I mean all kinds of prayers, prayers of thanksgiving, praise, petition, worship, should be among the prayers one offers to God. But no matter our deficiencies we will not lose our salvation given to us of God if we don't pray. But God knows how to draw out our prayers anyway and at appointed times.

Why the need for every thing we do in life
because as I understand predestination God would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, ... which os taught by John Calvin.

Also taught by Jesus, the apostles, and is found in Scripture.

Because nothing we do or do not do will change our place in eternity. As for those not elect...well, the others would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death .And their fate is sealed.

Yes, in His foreknowledge, God knows everything from beginning to end. We are part of the plan He created.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is a difference between foreknowledge and predestination.

True.

And neither assures salvation.

The assurance of salvation is the Presence of the Holy Spirit of Promise in our lives. It is our earnest, our down-payment.

 

[charismaticlady]

True.

The assurance of salvation is the Presence of the Holy Spirit of Promise in our lives. It is our earnest, our down-payment.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There is no "need" for faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. There is no requirement for faith in the Abraham Covenant recorded in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. The only requirement from God's people is circumcision. How does that Scripture go? Why hope for something if you can see it"? Abraham and his seed are already in salvation covenant with God. But I don't discount it, I merely informing you that "faith" is not a requirement of the Abraham Covenant. Nor is faith required from the children of Israel who possess the Mosaic Promises. Or for that matter, neither is faith required in the New Covenant described in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

There is no "need" for water baptisms. But there is a need for Spirit baptism, or one cannot be saved/born-again.

As Jesus said, my meat is to do the will of Him who sent me. It is not necessary when one is already in covenant. When God saves someone, they stay saved.

Prayer is important. "You" cannot have a right relationship with anyone if there is no communication. And I mean all kinds of prayers, prayers of thanksgiving, praise, petition, worship, should be among the prayers one offers to God. But no matter our deficiencies we will not lose our salvation given to us of God if we don't pray. But God knows how to draw out our prayers anyway and at appointed times.

Also taught by Jesus, the apostles, and is found in Scripture.

WOW. And there is the rub.

The not knowing if you are elect or not, because there is no litmus test for it.

 

[FreeInChrist]

True.

The assurance of salvation is the Presence of the Holy Spirit of Promise in our lives. It is our earnest, our down-payment.

If nothing is required then how would someone know the Holy Spirit was in their lives?

We are not given a mark nor are we given a certificate such as we receive in baptism. So how?

 

[jeremiah1five]

WOW. And there is the rub.

The not knowing if you are elect or not, because there is no litmus test for it.

All you have to do is be honest with Scripture.

The Abraham Covenant is recorded and described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17.
Show me where "faith" is required in this covenant.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If nothing is required then how would someone know the Holy Spirit was in their lives?

We are not given a mark nor are we given a certificate such as we receive in baptism. So how?

No flesh will glory in God's Presence.

Anyone and all will know they are saved merely through God's Presence in their lives. Once God make His Presence known, believe me, YOU WILL know.

And there is a "mark" given to God's people. It is the stamp of the Holy Spirit. We never know who is to be saved, but once a person declares Christ, it is our responsibility to test the spirits WHETHER they are of God.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:4–10.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9.

There is no secret rapture and there is no secret Presence. When God shows up, believe me, people/YOU will know it.

 

[FreeInChrist]

No flesh will glory in God's Presence.

Anyone and all will know they are saved merely through God's Presence in their lives. Once God make His Presence known, believe me, YOU WILL know.

And there is a "mark" given to God's people. It is the stamp of the Holy Spirit. We never know who is to be saved, but once a person declares Christ, it is our responsibility to test the spirits WHETHER they are of God.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:4–10.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9.

There is no secret rapture and there is no secret Presence. When God shows up, believe me, people/YOU will know it.

That is true.

I sure knew when the Holy Spirit convicted me with a piercing to my very soul that told me to shape up or ship out.

It could not be misunderstood.....