Doug Brents
Active Member
@brightfame52, @TedT If Christ drew all mankind to Himself when He was lifted up (and He said He did, so He did), and being drawn means they are saved, then you are saying that all men are saved?
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Can one man's slave not hear the words of another man? Did Onesimus not flee from his master, and become the servant/brother of Paul before being sent back to Philemon?
One enslaved to sin who hears the Gospel can choose to believe it, and be saved through it. The faith through which one is saved comes through hearing the Gospel of Jesus (Rom 10:17).
brightfame52
Active Member
He did not draw all mankind to Himself but all the elect from all over the world. All mankind has never been God's Covenant People, only a Chosen remnant. Christ Death was a Covenantal Death for a specific people.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Read the Scripture. He doesn't say that He will draw some, or that He will draw the elect, or that He will draw His sheep. He says that He will draw all mankind to Himself.
John 12:32 - "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself."
all [men]
πάντας (pantas)
Adjective - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of. Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole.
You are editing what He said based on your preconception, rather than editing your personal beliefs based on what Scripture says. Which comes from the Eternal One?
brightfame52
Active Member
Right all New Covenant Israel, the Seed Like Rom 4 16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Christ is and was raised a Saviour to Israel Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
brightfame52
Active Member
In addition, in Jn 12:32 the word men is not in the original, just pantos which also means:
- individually
- each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
- collectively
- some of all types
If you hold to total inability you do not believe these verses
Again, you make a false statement; and you failed to address the scripture.
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Romans 10:8–11 (NASB95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
Doug Brents
Active Member
Now you are adding to Scripture and incorrectly connecting other Scripture. For whom did Christ die? All mankind (1 John 2:2). The ones drawn to Christ by His death are the same as the ones for whom He died: not only the Brethren (the Body of Christ, the "elect"), but for every person who has ever lived or will ever live.
And now you are adding to definitions.
"Pantos" is a Greek word that can be an adjective or an adverb, with meanings such as
"all," "every," "whole," or "always". When used as an adverb (pantós), it can mean "surely," "by all means," or "altogether". It is the genitive case of pas, meaning "all," and is used in a variety of contexts, such as in "from every nation" or "before all the multitude".
Meanings of pantos
- Adjective (from pas): "all," "every," or "the whole".
- Example: "men devout from every nation" (Acts 2:5)
- Example: "before all the multitude" (Acts 6:5)
- Adverb: "surely," "by all means," "altogether," or "always".
- Example: "I must by all means keep this feast" (Acts 18:21)
- Example: "all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death" (Hebrews 2:15)
- Negative context: With a negative word like "not," it can mean "in no wise," "not at all," or "not altogether".
- Example: "No, in no wise" (Romans 3:9)
brightfame52
Active Member
Sure I do, I believe each of them
brightfame52
Active Member
No I'm not and you should interpret scripture with scripture
Doug Brents
Active Member
I do, and I did. You should do so as well, but you can't because properly interpreting Scripture with Scripture proves your ideas are complete nonsense.
brightfame52
Active Member
I don't think so. The all in Jn 12 32 is limited to the elect of all ethnicities not just jews
You are using the word slave as if it was a human master - slave relationship but enslavement to sin is not like that since sin is not a person so enslaved means to be under the power of sin like an addiction that one cannot resist.
You know what I mean: Romans 1:18+ tells us about people who KNOW the truth but who replace it with a lie because they love sin more than the truth. This is the addictive power of sin, not some human relationship, sigh.
Breaking the addiction to sin to save oneself is impossible: Matt 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”…Berean Standard Bible supported by
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” We cannot save ourselves.
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Sorry but this is a clear contradiction to the doctrine of total depravity
If you hold to total inability you do not believe these verses
Again, you make a false statement; and you failed to address the scripture.
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Romans 10:8–11 (NASB95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
Read the Scripture???
Do you apply this meaning of ALL to Job 38:7 where GOD tells Job that when HE created the physical universe, ALL THE SONS OF GOD, ie, every person created in HIS image as HIS son, saw this proof of HIS divinity and eternal power, Rom 1:20, and sang HIS praises???
If not then even you interpret all according to your preconceptions and faith decisions...
WE all read read the scriptures and we all go where our convictions lead us.
PS: I actually believe that Job 38:7 should be taken at face value, ie, if we, me and thee, are sons of GOD, we were there singing our hearts out over this proof of HIS divinity, the proof of HIS gospel of salvation and the proof of HIS promise of election of the salvation of any sinner who put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM!!! Hallelujah!!!
I hold to total inability because of scripture:
Matt 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”…Berean Standard Bible supported by
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”
We cannot save ourselves.
We were elected before the founding of the world...
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus taught that men cannot believe on him John 6:44, 65
No he did not for those who believe God come to Jesus
John 6:45 (NASB 95) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
And those who believe Moses would believe Christ
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Those who had God as their father
John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.
Would love Christ
Those desiring the will of God
John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.
Will know the truth of Christ's word
Those who were God’s and given to Christ
John 17:6 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.
would keep his word
Yes God alone has saving power but he saves those who believe
Scripture is clear: salvation, justification, righteousness, reception of the Spirit are all by faith
John 3:16
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Eph 2:8–9
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
Rom 10:9–10
that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”
Mark 16:16
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
1 Peter 1:3–5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 into an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and unfading, reserved in heaven for you 5 who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,
Rom 3:22–24
that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Gal 2:16
but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
John 11:25–26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”
2 Thess 2:13
But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,
Acts 13:39
by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Rom 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,
1 Cor 15:1–2
Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.
Eph 1:13–14
in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
2 Tim 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
John 20:31
but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 15:11
But we believe we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus in the same way those also are.”
Gal 3:22
But the scripture imprisoned all under sin, in order that the promise could be given by faith in Jesus Christ to those who believe.
Acts 13:38–39
“Therefore let it be known to you, men and brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Acts 10:43
To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:23–25
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
Rom 5:1
Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 (LEB) — 5 Therefore does the one who gives you the Spirit and who works miracles among you do so by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
which man can do as per scripture
Romans 10:8–10 (NASB 95)
8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
