No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[TomL]

Since you insert the word people into this place in this verse which is NOT biblical, I stand by my words and my cat. Go make up another verse, this is fun....

Um I did not insert the word. Translations have because it is rather obvious when you read the text

John 12:23–33 (LEB) — 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man will be glorified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me, and where I am, there my servant will be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. 27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.)

And you think there is no distinction between cats or people here?

Seriously?

 

[TomL]

Indeed...


Declare in this verse is diasepheo:
diasapheó: To explain thoroughly, to declare, to make clear,
not just to talk about something using more metaphor. This is why some editors say they ask Him to explain the metaphor of the parable.

​

Gee, not a word about the verb to sow, suggesting it means absolutely nothing - - - missing the point of them asking for a thorough explanation. Christ answers about HOW the people of the kingdom and HOW the people of the evil one come into mankind.

Christ tells them and us clearly that they are sown here, moved here from another place against the current favorite doctrine that we are created here in the womb.

IF His words are merely more metaphor then He is explaining nothing, merely repeating Himself. Remember sow cannot mean to create because in these same verses the devil is said to sow people into mankind too and he cannot create.

Sorry there is nothing about people being brought from another place

What we have here is a metaphor of a word that means to pour out.

In this case it means to bring about, not to transfer from one location to another.

 

[TedT]

Um I did not insert the word. Translations have because it is rather obvious when you read the text

Translators with a pov to press and to support by any means...

 

[TedT]

What we have here is a metaphor of a word that means to pour out.

What word means to pour out??? This isn't another made up word inserted into the text is it?

 

[TomL]

What word means to pour out??? This isn't another made up word inserted into the text is it?

The word we need to consider is



σπείρω (speirō), vb. sow (seed). fut.act. σπερῶ; aor.act. ἔσπειρα; perf.act. ἔσπαρκα; aor.pass. ἐσπάρην; perf.mid. ἔσπαρμαι. Hebrew equivalent: זרע (32). LTW σπείρω (Agriculture).
Verb Usage
1. to sow (seed) — to place or scatter (seeds) in or on the ground for future growth. Related Topics: Seed; Sower; Sow.
Mt 13:3|| Ἰδοὺ ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων τοῦ σπείρειν.
Mk 4:3|| ἰδοὺ ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων σπεῖραι.
1 Co 15:36 σὺ ὃ σπείρεις,
2 Co 9:6 ὁ σπείρων φειδομένως
Ga 6:7 ὃ γὰρ ἐὰν σπείρῃ ἄνθρωπος,
2. to be sown (state) — to be or become placed or scattered in or on the ground for future growth (as of seeds). Related Topics: Seed; Sower; Sow.
Mk 4:15|| ὅπου σπείρεται ὁ λόγος,
Mk 4:15|| καὶ αἴρει τὸν λόγον τὸν ἐσπαρμένον εἰς αὐτούς.
Mk 4:16|| καὶ οὗτοί εἰσιν ὁμοίως οἱ ἐπὶ τὰ πετρώδη σπειρόμενοι, οἳ
Mk 4:18|| καὶ ἄλλοι εἰσὶν οἱ εἰς τὰς ἀκάνθας σπειρόμενοι·
Mk 4:20|| καὶ ἐκεῖνοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τὴν καλὴν σπαρέντες,
3. to spread ⇔ sow† — to spread, conceived of as placing or scattering seeds on the ground for future growth. Related Topic: Sower.
Mk 4:14|| ὁ σπείρων
Mk 4:14|| ὁ σπείρων τὸν λόγον σπείρει.
1 Co 9:11 εἰ ἡμεῖς ὑμῖν τὰ πνευματικὰ ἐσπείραμεν,
4. to cultivate ⇔ sow† — to cultivate, conceived of as sowing seeds for growth. Related Topics: Farm; Sower; Cultivate; Agriculture; Land and Property.
Ga 6:8 ὁ σπείρων εἰς τὴν σάρκα ἑαυτοῦ
Ga 6:8 ὁ δὲ σπείρων εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα
5. to be cultivated ⇔ be sown† — to be or become cultivated, conceived of as sowing seeds for growth. Related Topics: Farm; Sower; Cultivate; Agriculture; Land and Property.
Jas 3:18 καρπὸς δὲ δικαιοσύνης ἐν εἰρήνῃ σπείρεται τοῖς ποιοῦσιν εἰρήνην.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

When one sows, one throws out, pours, or scatters seed

Metaphorically, the passage is speaking of the making of people who are righteous or unrighteous is what is in view

Christ is making people righteous

Satan is making people evil

 

[TomL]

Translators with a pov to press and to support by any means...

Read the text

Um I did not insert the word. Translations have because it is rather obvious when you read the text

John 12:23–33 (LEB) — 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man will be glorified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me, and where I am, there my servant will be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. 27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Since you insert the word people into this place in this verse which is NOT biblical, I stand by my words and my cat. Go make up another verse, this is fun....

I am not @TomL

Not sure your preferred translation. I assume you want men and not people? I agree but wont get into that now.

But thought you might want to see what many translations say for that verse. And then Ill get out of you discusstion with TomL

Personally I love the

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. That could be your dog, your cat, your cow or even an angel.
Got to give it to them here.....LOL

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Berean Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

New King James Version
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

New American Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

NASB 1995
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

NASB 1977
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Legacy Standard Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Amplified Bible
And I, if and when I am lifted up from the earth [on the cross], will draw all people to Myself [Gentiles, as well as Jews].”

Christian Standard Bible
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself.”

American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

Contemporary English Version
If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me."

English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."

Good News Translation
When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me."

International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."

NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

New Heart English Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to myself."

Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Berean Literal Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

Smith's Literal Translation
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And when I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all things to myself.”

New American Bible
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”

New Revised Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw every man to me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

Godbey New Testament
And if I may be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men towards me.

Haweis New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Mace New Testament
as for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me.

Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."

Worrell New Testament
and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Worsley New Testament
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, shall draw all men unto me.

 

[TomL]

I am not @TomL

Not sure your preferred translation. I assume you want men and not people? I agree but wont get into that now.

But thought you might want to see what many translations say for that verse. And then Ill get out of you discusstion with TomL

Personally I love the

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. That could be your dog, your cat, your cow or even an angel.
Got to give it to them here.....LOL

Only if context is ignored

John 12:23–33 (LEB) — 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man will be glorified. 24 Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me, and where I am, there my servant will be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. 27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” 30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.)

 

[TedT]

When one sows, one throws out, pours, or scatters seed

Metaphorically, the passage is speaking of the making of people who are righteous or unrighteous is what is in view

The seeds that are sown are ALREADY LIVING PEOPLE, sons of the kingdom and sons of the evil one. It is statedly people that are being sown into mankind, not their righteousness nor evil...but you can metaphorize it all you want.

Here you are talking just like you were accusing @brightflame52, not taking things at face value and notn believing what is written, the whole point of my engaging with you here,

 

[TomL]

The seeds that are sown are ALREADY LIVING PEOPLE, sons of the kingdom and sons of the evil one. It is statedly people that are being sown into mankind, not their righteousness nor evil...but you can metaphorize it all you want.

Here you are talking just like you were accusing @brightflame52, not taking things at face value and notn believing what is written, the whole point of my engaging with you here,

Not sown into mankind

It is mankind coming out either after Christ or after Satan

Your engaging is off

John 12:20–33 (NIV84) — 20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus. 23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. 27 “Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. 30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

The passage speaks of the reason Christ came to this hour. It was to provide salvation for mankind


John 3:16–17For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him.

1 Tim 1:15The saying is trustworthy and worthy of all acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Luke 19:10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save those who are lost.”

Matt 1:21And she will give birth to a son, and you will call his name ‘Jesus,’ because he will save his people from their sins.”

John 10:10The thief comes only so that he can steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

1 John 3:8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God was revealed: in order to destroy the works of the devil.

Mark 10:45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

It is about saving those in mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill ! 13

 

[TomL]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill ! 13

John 6:44 is speaking of those who already believe in the Father

And upon hearing and learning from the Father, will come to Christ.

John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Those who believe Moses would believe Jesus

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.


Those who had God as their father would love Christ



John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.



Those desiring the will of God would know the truth of Jesus's word



John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.



Those who were God’s and have kept his word would be Christ's



John 17:6 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.

 

[TedT]

Not sown into mankind

Ok, I got it...
sown is not sown in Matt 13:36-39
return is not return in Ps 9:17 and
all is not all in Job 38-7...

Sigh...

 

[TedT]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill !

Rather:
John 6:44 is indisputably disclosing to us that no one SINNER can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill !

 

[TedT]

John 6:44 is speaking of those who already believe in the Father

Rather: (if I may),
John 6:44 is speaking of those sinners who had already put their faith without proof (not belief by proof) in the Father before they became separated from HIM by their choice to sin...

 

[TomL]

Rather: (if I may),
John 6:44 is speaking of those sinners who had already put their faith without proof (not belief by proof) in the Father before they became separated from HIM by their choice to sin...

Nothing in the text asserts they are currently separated from God

And actually the text would indicate otherwise as they come to Christ

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Because they hear and learn from God.

Additionally

Those who believe Moses would believe Jesus

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Those who had God as their father would love Christ

John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.

Those desiring the will of God would know the truth of Jesus's word

John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.

Those who were God’s and have kept his word would be Christ's

John 17:6 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.

 

[TomL]

Ok, I got it...
sown is not sown in Matt 13:36-39
return is not return in Ps 9:17 and
all is not all in Job 38-7...

Sigh...

Sorry but you are just arguing based upon your assumed contextual meaning, of which there is no support for your idea of non human beings sent to Earth.

It is mankind coming out either after Christ or after Satan

John 12:20–33 (NIV84) — 20 Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21 They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. “Sir,” they said, “we would like to see Jesus.” 22 Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus. 23 Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. 27 “Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. 30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

The passage speaks of the reason Christ came to this hour. It was to provide salvation for mankind

 

[JLB]

John 6:44 is undisputably disclosing to us that no one person can come to the Lord Jesus Christ by his or her own freewill ! 13

Did Judas have a free will?

 

[brightfame52]

John 6:44 is speaking of those who already believe in the Father

No it doesn't

 

[brightfame52]

Did Judas have a free will?

Is he included in No man? Or did it read no man except judas