brightfame52
Active Member
Pardon me you are deceived for not believing it
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Samson
Active Member
but you were deceived first
TibiasDad
Active Member
a systematic explanation of a phenomenon, comprising interrelated constructs, variables, definitions, and propositions that provide a framework for understanding, explaining, and predicting that phenomenon.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
The reason why men by nature cant come to Christ by their so called freewill is because mans natural carnal mind is enmity against God Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
That word enmity is the greek word echthra:
hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
Man naturally in his thoughts, purposes is against God, hates God, so hates Christ who is God Jn 1:1 ! This characterizes mans lost state by nature, so thats why its declared that no man can come to Christ save the Father draws him Jn 6:44,65, or except a man is born again ! 10
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
That word enmity is the greek word echthra:
hostility; by implication, a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.
Man naturally in his thoughts, purposes is against God, hates God, so hates Christ who is God Jn 1:1 ! This characterizes mans lost state by nature, so thats why its declared that no man can come to Christ save the Father draws him Jn 6:44,65, or except a man is born again ! 10
civic
Active Member
to be deceived one must mix truth with error, hence a counterfeit $100 bill looks like the real thing to the untrained eye.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Is it not funny that so many are Chauvinistically minded when it comes to predestined stuff, but this that also is very Calvin they balk at.... IOW they trust his teachings for their salvation but not for their babtisms or those of their children.
Here is a short summary statement of John Calvin’s argument for applying the sign of baptism to the children of Believers:
John Calvin argued that infant baptism is valid because it signifies the inclusion of infants in the covenant of grace, similar to how circumcision was practiced in the Old Testament. He believed that baptism serves as a sign of God's promise and grace, assuring parents of their children's place within the church community
John Calvin's View on Infant Baptism
Theological Basis
John Calvin believed that infant baptism is rooted in the covenant theology of the Bible. He argued that baptism serves as a sign of God's promise to include children in His covenant. Calvin emphasized that just as circumcision was given to infants in the Old Testament, baptism fulfills this role in the New Testament.Key Arguments
- Covenant Inclusion: Calvin maintained that infants should be baptized because they are part of the covenant community. He viewed baptism as a means of grace, signifying that God acknowledges them as His children.
- Spiritual Assurance: He believed that infant baptism provides assurance of God's grace. This act reassures parents and the church of God's promise to nurture and guide the child spiritually.
- Symbol of Faith: While Calvin recognized that baptism does not remove original sin, he argued that it symbolizes the believer's faith and the community's commitment to raise the child in the faith.
Historical Context
Calvin's views were part of a broader Reformation debate on baptism. He defended infant baptism against the Anabaptists, who advocated for believer's baptism only. Calvin's position was that the church should not exclude children from the sacrament, as they belong to God and the community of faith.
Samson
Active Member
When you do a little digging into Calvinism you find what the try to sweep under the rug. I found this.Is it not funny that so many are Chauvinistically minded when it comes to predestined stuff, but this that also is very Calvin they balk at.... IOW they trust his teachings for their salvation but not for their babtisms or those of their children.
Here is a short summary statement of John Calvin’s argument for applying the sign of baptism to the children of Believers:
John Calvin (1509-1564)
John Calvin argued that infant baptism is valid because it signifies the inclusion of infants in the covenant of grace, similar to how circumcision was practiced in the Old Testament. He believed that baptism serves as a sign of God's promise and grace, assuring parents of their children's place within the church community
John Calvin's View on Infant Baptism
Theological Basis
John Calvin believed that infant baptism is rooted in the covenant theology of the Bible. He argued that baptism serves as a sign of God's promise to include children in His covenant. Calvin emphasized that just as circumcision was given to infants in the Old Testament, baptism fulfills this role in the New Testament.
Key Arguments
- Covenant Inclusion: Calvin maintained that infants should be baptized because they are part of the covenant community. He viewed baptism as a means of grace, signifying that God acknowledges them as His children.
- Spiritual Assurance: He believed that infant baptism provides assurance of God's grace. This act reassures parents and the church of God's promise to nurture and guide the child spiritually.
- Symbol of Faith: While Calvin recognized that baptism does not remove original sin, he argued that it symbolizes the believer's faith and the community's commitment to raise the child in the faith.
Historical Context
Calvin's views were part of a broader Reformation debate on baptism. He defended infant baptism against the Anabaptists, who advocated for believer's baptism only. Calvin's position was that the church should not exclude children from the sacrament, as they belong to God and the community of faith.
One of the most off-repeated themes throughout many genres of Scripture is the broad invitation of God to “all” people. This invitation parallels in many ways David L. Allen’s discussion on the issue of a limited atonement in this volume and in other works.
However, the question relating to irresistible grace is why, when receiving irresistible grace is the only way persons can be saved, would God choose only a small number of people to be saved? In essence, Calvinists blame God for those who do not come. These lost souls cannot come because God did not give them irresistible grace, the only way they can be saved. Roger Olson compared the roles of Satan and God in Calvinism: “Satan wants all people damned to hell and God wants only a certain number damned to hell.” While Calvinists would insist that the sinners who reject the message of salvation merely receive their just deserts, there is really more to it than that.
Calvinists affirm that God elected some for his own reasons from before the world began, and he gave them irresistible grace through his Spirit so they inevitably would be saved. Obviously, those whom he did not choose to give the irresistible effectual call but merely the resistible outer ineffectual call can never be saved. These are no more or less sinners than others, but God for no obvious reason does not love this group (Calvinists call this “preterition,” or intentionally overlooking some persons), while he loves the other group through election.
God chose not to give them the means of salvation, and thus they have zero chance of being saved. The alternative perspective that I affirm is that God does extend the general call to all persons and unleashes the Holy Spirit to persuade and convict them of their need for repentance and faith. The Holy Spirit, however, does not impose his will irresistibly. At the end of the day, response to the grace of God determines whether the call is effectual.
The key issue, then, is whether salvation is genuinely open to all people or just to a few who receive irresistible grace. What does the Scripture say concerning this issue? First, Scripture clearly teaches that God desires the salvation of all people. The Bible teaches that:
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 HCSB)
“It is not the will of your Father who is in heaven for one of these little ones to perish.” (Matt 18:14 NASB)
“The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Pet 3:9 KJV)
“[God] wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Tim 2:4 HCSB)
The Greek word pas (πᾶς) and its similar cognate synonym words (pantes, panta, and hos an), meaning “all” or “everyone,” such as in 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Pet 3:9, in all the standard Greek dictionaries means “all” without exception!
Steve Lemke, “Is God’s Grace Irresistible?
TibiasDad
Active Member
Straw man argument; we do not say that we can simply choose of our own accord alone. God must always make the first move in reconciliation because God is the offended party and is the only one that can restore the relationship.
With the aid and enabling of the Spirit we can respond as we choose to respond to what the Spirit has revealed to us.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
No it's not
Neil Spargo
Active Member
Your taking what Paul in said in Romans 8:7 out of context. It has nothing to do with salvation. He is talking about what unbelievers are like.
Jesus said "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12:32
But just being drawn does not save you.
When drawn to Jesus, you are saved by faith in His sacrifice, which is enabled by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit who draws you to Him in the first place. Salvation comes from believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ—His death and resurrection—which pays the penalty for your sins and offers a path to eternal life.
The Process of Salvation:
- God's Initiative: The Holy Spirit is the one who draws a person to Christ, opening their spiritual eyes and ears to the Gospel message.
- Belief in the Gospel: Through this drawing, a person comes to believe the Gospel, which includes understanding that Jesus died for their sins, was buried, and rose again.
- Faith and Grace: This belief leads to a personal faith in Jesus Christ as the means of salvation. Salvation is not earned, but is a free gift from God, given by His grace.
- Acceptance of Christ: Believing leads to accepting Jesus, deciding to follow Him, and entrusting oneself to Him
brightfame52
Active Member
No Im not not. Its stating a fact
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes being drawn saves you because its the giving of spiritual life by the Spirit. The Spirit begins His work in you. Being drawn is the spiritual application of salvation
No man can come to Christ by their own freewill. They must be tied up and dragged kicking and screaming to the cross.
Irresistible grace is it true?
the Bible is filled with warnings about resisting God’s grace:
Look at the numerous warning passages in Hebrews, which seem to imply that people who once believed can fall away. That doesn’t sit well with a deterministic reading of God’s grace found in Calvinism.
Irresistible grace is it true?
the Bible is filled with warnings about resisting God’s grace:
This verse doesn’t prove that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in every context, but it clearly demonstrates that He can be resisted. That alone undercuts the universal claim that God’s grace cannot be resisted.
Look at the numerous warning passages in Hebrews, which seem to imply that people who once believed can fall away. That doesn’t sit well with a deterministic reading of God’s grace found in Calvinism.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Neil Spargo
Active Member
Not even close, one is drawn by the Gospel message but it's up to the individual to make the choice to accept salvation or not.
Neil Spargo
Active Member
Your facts are incorrect.
Speculator
Active Member
That's Calvinism 101
“This is good, and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time.” (1 Tim 2:3-4)
How can anyone read this particular passage without concluding that God wants every single individual to come to faith? Only in an abnormal reading of this passage would you conclude something like God wants “all kinds of men” to be saved and not every individual.
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” (Matthew 23:37)
At face value, this passage also seems to communicate that there are countless multitudes in Jerusalem that Jesus, the express image of God’s person, wanted to be saved and he was desiring to bring them under his comforting and protective wing but because they were unwilling, he was grieved.
So much for irresistible grace.
brightfame52
Active Member
Truth cant be proved to you
brightfame52
Active Member
Drawing is the Spiritual application of what Christ accomplished, the Spirit begins His Life inwardly
