No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[TomL]

They refer to the sheep/elect

Um this is not just sheep/elect

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

Um this is not just sheep/elect

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yeah, only the elect, for instance in Timothy, Paul stated who salvation is for 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[TomL]

Yeah, only the elect, for instance in Timothy, Paul stated who salvation is for 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The issue is who Christ died for.

You are dodging it.

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[brightfame52]

The issue is who Christ died for.

You are dodging it.

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,
2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.
1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christs death is limited to the elect

 

[TomL]

Christs death is limited to the elect

Not if you believe scripture.


1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

 

[brightfame52]

Not if you believe scripture.


1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

Yeah I believe scripture the question is do you?

 

[TomL]

Yeah I believe scripture the question is do you?

No, you don't.

For if you did, you would drop the theology you hold.

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

However, you cannot address the scriptures, and so you just ignore them.

 

[TomL]

Christs death is limited to the elect

Not if your theology comes from scripture

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

Your theology, we know, does not

 

[brightfame52]

Not if your theology comes from scripture




Your theology, we know, does not

All those scriptures are about the elect

 

[TomL]

All those scriptures are about the elect

Not if you actually read the verses.

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

Sadly, you are not a person who will read and believe all scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 9

 

[brightfame52]

Not if you actually read the verses.



Sadly, you are not a person who will read and believe all scripture.

Post 200 man by nature because of the fall are locked in unbelief/disobedience

Post in thread 'No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !'

Sep 19, 2025

A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man. 9

• brightfame52

 

[FreeInChrist]

Post 200 man by nature because of the fall are locked in unbelief/disobedience

Post in thread 'No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !'

Sep 19, 2025

A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man. 9

• brightfame52

What would be the reason for producing scrolls that eventually became bound into a book explaining all fro beginning to end ifeveryone, including you, are locked into unbelief.

I actually see that in you.

You refuse many scriptures that counter your beliefs so therefore you may read but do not discern.

If man, including you are so locked away in unbelief... and dont say you are excluded because you are an elect, no one come to knowledge of such until they read or hear what is written and since all men were born that way then why the written word?

Haas it ever occurred to you that every single priest, minister, and rabbi from a pulpit have variations on what and how they teach? How about all the myriads of televangelists over the years since television came to be, or the soap box ministers on the corners, or the church and religious services on the computers.

Diversity is given a very new name here because even within denominations there is no general concensus on everything.

No two seminaries teach the same.

WHY?

So if the Heavenly Father "32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." is going to have mercy on all.... this seems to be a rather awkward way to handle things.

Lets face it.... If being elect is the only way, which defines my church's beliefs....
THEY HAVE FAILED BECAUSE THEY BABY BAPTISE.

Lets not talk on the RCC. Aside from qusi-appropriate prayers and worship, they also baby baptise.
SO THEY TOO HAVE FAILED.

and I could go right down the list and at the end ask you how few He will have mercy on, especially when those , like you, feel he will for you, dont get it right in your basic beliefs because some person translated a word a certain way and either the entire thing was changed by someone else or it was mass copied and not corrected when other definitions have come forth.

I currently am working with dia.

And the verse that says For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

You use this as do others here and look at the difference using another meaning for Greek dia from Strong's below
would make if

Strong's Greek: 1223. διά (dia) - Bible Hub​

Bible > Strong's > Greek > 1223 1223. dia Lexical Summary dia: through, by, because of, for the sake of Original Word: διά Part of Speech: Preposition Transliteration: dia Pronunciation: dee-ah' Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')

IF it read like
For it is by grace you have been saved, because of faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Because this changes the meaning to perfect acceptance of free will.

Also would if they had chosen For it is by grace you have been saved, for the sake of faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

But no.... the copy cats took the easy way ....

 

[TomL]

Post 200 man by nature because of the fall are locked in unbelief/disobedience

Post in thread 'No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !'

Sep 19, 2025

A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, that's also called His having Mercy on a man. 9

• brightfame52

Your views were refuted by scripture

1 Tim 2:5–6For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

In context, all human beings Christ gave a ransom for.

2 Cor 5:14–15For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died. And he died for all, in order that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for the one who died for them and was raised.

Here we have a distinction: Christ died for all, and all died, but the text does not state all live. So Christ did for more than the saved.


1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world

 

[TomL]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 9

Um, it is giving to Christ those who are already God's.

They are not unbelievers.

Hello

There is nothing there which supports your views

 

[brightfame52]

What would be the reason for producing scrolls that eventually became bound into a book explaining all fro beginning to end ifeveryone, including you, are locked into unbelief.

I actually see that in you.

You refuse many scriptures that counter your beliefs so therefore you may read but do not discern.

If man, including you are so locked away in unbelief... and dont say you are excluded because you are an elect, no one come to knowledge of such until they read or hear what is written and since all men were born that way then why the written word?

Haas it ever occurred to you that every single priest, minister, and rabbi from a pulpit have variations on what and how they teach? How about all the myriads of televangelists over the years since television came to be, or the soap box ministers on the corners, or the church and religious services on the computers.

Diversity is given a very new name here because even within denominations there is no general concensus on everything.

No two seminaries teach the same.

WHY?

So if the Heavenly Father "32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." is going to have mercy on all.... this seems to be a rather awkward way to handle things.

Lets face it.... If being elect is the only way, which defines my church's beliefs....
THEY HAVE FAILED BECAUSE THEY BABY BAPTISE.

Lets not talk on the RCC. Aside from qusi-appropriate prayers and worship, they also baby baptise.
SO THEY TOO HAVE FAILED.

and I could go right down the list and at the end ask you how few He will have mercy on, especially when those , like you, feel he will for you, dont get it right in your basic beliefs because some person translated a word a certain way and either the entire thing was changed by someone else or it was mass copied and not corrected when other definitions have come forth.

I currently am working with dia.

And the verse that says For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

You use this as do others here and look at the difference using another meaning for Greek dia from Strong's below
would make if

Strong's Greek: 1223. διά (dia) - Bible Hub​

Bible > Strong's > Greek > 1223 1223. dia Lexical Summary dia: through, by, because of, for the sake of Original Word: διά Part of Speech: Preposition Transliteration: dia Pronunciation: dee-ah' Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ah')

IF it read like
For it is by grace you have been saved, because of faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Because this changes the meaning to perfect acceptance of free will.

Also would if they had chosen For it is by grace you have been saved, for the sake of faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

But no.... the copy cats took the easy way ....

Man because of the fall in adam died to God, one of the consequences of being dead to God is unbelief, disobeying, so as long as we remain in adam by nature we cant believe, we are by nature as children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

 

[brightfame52]

Um, it is giving to Christ those who are already God's.

They are not unbelievers.

Hello

There is nothing there which supports your views

They are unbelievers until drawn. Paul was an unbeliever until drawn. Thats the reason for the drawing, otherwise they cant believe in Christ duh

 

[TomL]

They are unbelievers until drawn. Paul was an unbeliever until drawn. Thats the reason for the drawing, otherwise they cant believe in Christ duh

Once again, the drawing is not irresistible.

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (LEB) — 3 From afar Yahweh appeared to me, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with loyal love. 4 I will again build you, and you will be built, O virgin Israel. You will again adorn yourself with your tambourines, and you will go forth in the dancing in a ring of the merrymakers.

Hosea 11:1–4 (LEB) — 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 When I called them, they went from my face. They sacrificed to the Baals, and they sacrificed to idols. 3 And I myself taught Ephraim to walk; I took them in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with human ties, with the bands of love. I was to them like one who lifted up a yoke on their jaws, though I bent down to them and let them eat.

All Israel did not come to God.

And here is some additional drawing.

Acts 20:30 (LEB) — 30 And from among you yourselves men will arise, speaking perversions of the truth in order to draw away the disciples after them.

 

[brightfame52]

Once again, the drawing is not irresistible.

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (LEB) — 3 From afar Yahweh appeared to me, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love. Therefore I have drawn you with loyal love. 4 I will again build you, and you will be built, O virgin Israel. You will again adorn yourself with your tambourines, and you will go forth in the dancing in a ring of the merrymakers.

Hosea 11:1–4 (LEB) — 1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 When I called them, they went from my face. They sacrificed to the Baals, and they sacrificed to idols. 3 And I myself taught Ephraim to walk; I took them in my arms, but they did not know that I healed them. 4 I drew them with human ties, with the bands of love. I was to them like one who lifted up a yoke on their jaws, though I bent down to them and let them eat.

All Israel did not come to God.

And here is some additional drawing.

Acts 20:30 (LEB) — 30 And from among you yourselves men will arise, speaking perversions of the truth in order to draw away the disciples after them.

The drawing by Christ is what causes the conversion out of unbelief unto belief. Thats why He said He would draw all of them to Himself

 

[TomL]

The drawing by Christ is what causes the conversion out of unbelief unto belief. Thats why He said He would draw all of them to Himself

All, however, are not saved.

All are drawn.

John 12:32 (NASB95) — 32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”