No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Jim]

Sorry that is false

Total inability affirms man is not capable of believing or loving God unless he is changed by God

Why do you think they hold man must first be regenerated before he can believe?

The critical difference between the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist is the reality of the significant free will of humans.

 

[TomL]

The critical difference between the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist is the reality of the significant free will of humans.

And Calvinists deny a free will to believe and reconcile with God unless God first regenerates a person.

 

[Jim]

And Calvinists deny a free will to believe and reconcile with God unless God first regenerates a person.

They do not believe in a significant free will even after being first regenerated.

 

[TomL]

They do not believe in a significant free will even after being first regenerated.

Well, at the very least, the ability to believe after being regenerated

 

[Jim]

Well, at the very least, the ability to believe after being regenerated

But they have no choice in the matter. Calvinism, no matter how they present it, is totally deterministic. So much so that I am not sure that the concept of faith, believing in God, is even relevant. It is more like implanted mind set. All of which, beginning with the false Calvinist doctrine of election, is pure nonsense.

 

[TomL]

But they have no choice in the matter. Calvinism, no matter how they present it, is totally deterministic. So much so that I am not sure that the concept of faith, believing in God, is even relevant. It is more like implanted mind set. All of which, beginning with the false Calvinist doctrine of election, is pure nonsense.

Deterministic yes indeed. Some Calvinists will now argue man is acting according to his will but I agree it is deterministic.

 

[brightfame52]

By dragging them kicking and screaming to the cross

Never heard of such a thing sounds like something you made up

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

1) “If you declare” establishes a conditional circumstance, an if/then scenario. If “you declare”, must occur before salvation is experienced.

2) “you will be saved” is a future tense verb, and just to ensure you grasp this, nothing future tense can already be an existing reality. Thus, being saved cannot have happened before the fulfillment of the conditional “if” you declare and believe.

3) The cause and effect is reemphasized in verse 10, “…you believe and are justified”. Belief precedes being justified, and professing with your mouth precedes being saved.

Scripture denies the possibility of your assertions.

Doug

The Cross work of Christ actually saved them He died for, and He was raised for their Justification Rom 4:25

 

[Doug Brents]

The cross actually saved them Christ died for, not just make it possible

No, it did not. Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2), but not everyone will be saved (Matt 7:21-23). So your statement completely contradicts Jesus' own words.

 

[Kokomo]

Never heard of such a thing sounds like something you made up

No it gets posted a lot. It's used to explain Calvinism.

The truth always comes out in the end. Since love actually is my favorite topic I'll be posting more on it. But as to your mention of being forced. Is that like a metaphor of being "dragged kicking and screaming to the cross?"

..if you've been granted permission to come to Jesus doesn't necessarily mean you will come. You have to be willing, It has to be your choice. That's one of the major problems with Calvinism, you don't have a choice. You're going to get dragged kicking and screaming to the cross no matter what.

No man can come to Christ by their own freewill. They must be tied up and dragged kicking and screaming to the cross. Irresistible grace is it true? the Bible is filled with warnings about resisting God’s grace: This verse doesn’t prove that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in every context...

• Amos
• Post #554
• Oct 4, 2025
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

 

[brightfame52]

No, it did not. Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2

Yes it did, it saved universally Jew and Gentiles

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes it did, it saved universally Jew and Gentiles

Indeed it did save both Jews and Gentiles, but not universally. Jesus Himself says that not everyone will be saved (Matt 7:13-14 and Luke 13:23). Universalism is a false doctrine. 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus died not only for the "elect", but for all the world, every single soul that has ever existed. But not every soul, not even most souls, will be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Indeed it did save both Jews and Gentiles, but not universally. Jesus Himself says that not everyone will be saved (Matt 7:13-14 and Luke 13:23). Universalism is a false doctrine. 1 John 2:2 says that Jesus died not only for the "elect", but for all the world, every single soul that has ever existed. But not every soul, not even most souls, will be saved.

Yes it did, it saved universally Jew and Gentiles. That's not all without expectation, both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit from the death of Christ

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes it did, it saved universally Jew and Gentiles. That's not all without expectation, both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit from the death of Christ

What???
"both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit"????
What does that mean?

 

[brightfame52]

What???

saved universally Jew and Gentiles. That's not all without expectation, both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit from the death of Christ. His Death is savingly universal in scope and not just for Jews.

 

[atpollard]

Nobody claims man can initiate being saved.

False, Semi-Pelagians do.

Semi-Pelagianism is
a theological view that teaches humans can take the initial steps toward salvation through their own free will, while God's grace is still needed to complete the process. It presents a middle ground between Pelagianism (which denies original sin and emphasizes human ability) and Augustine's view (which emphasizes total human dependence on God's grace for salvation). The core idea is that humans have a residual ability to seek God, but they require divine aid to be saved.

Just as I said ...

Actually, the doctrine of Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) merely disallows Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. Man cannot live a sinless life (Pelagianism) and man cannot choose to save himself by initiating salvation (Semi-Pelagianism) for God to complete.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry that is false

Total inability affirms man is not capable of believing or loving God unless he is changed by God

Why do you think they hold man must first be regenerated before he can believe?

TOTAL DEPRAVITY:

Total depravity is a theological doctrine asserting that the human nature is corrupted by sin to the extent that people are spiritually unable to choose God or believe in Christ on their own without divine intervention. It does not mean that people are as evil as they could possibly be, but rather that every part of their being—mind, body, and spirit—is affected by sin and incapable of yielding spiritual good apart from God's grace. This inability means a person's will is enslaved to sin, and their desires are contrary to God.​

Post #1438

Actually, the doctrine of Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) merely disallows Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. Man cannot live a sinless life (Pelagianism) and man cannot choose to save himself by initiating salvation (Semi-Pelagianism) for God to complete.

It requires God to make the first move … Father draws (John 6:44) or open heart (Acts 16:14) or a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) … then we can respond.

Q1: How is the definition quoted, what I said and what you said different [except for your claim that Post #1438 is "false"]?

SEMI-PELAGIANISM:

Semi-Pelagianism is a theological view that teaches humans can take the initial steps toward salvation through their own free will, while God's grace is still needed to complete the process. It presents a middle ground between Pelagianism (which denies original sin and emphasizes human ability) and Augustine's view (which emphasizes total human dependence on God's grace for salvation). The core idea is that humans have a residual ability to seek God, but they require divine aid to be saved.​

​

Core tenets of Semi-Pelagianism:​

• Partial human initiative: Individuals can initiate their salvation through their own will and effort, even though they are born with original sin.
• Cooperation between God and man: Salvation is a collaborative effort, where humans start the process and God's grace sustains it.
• Residual ability after the Fall: Despite being corrupted by original sin, humanity retains a measure of ability to seek God on its own.
• Grace is not always primary: Unlike strict Augustinianism, this view suggests that God's grace isn't always the initial, indispensable force that enables a person to respond to the Gospel.

Q2: How is your view of "FREE WILL" different from the definition of "SEMI-PELAGIANISM" quoted above?

 

[Doug Brents]

saved universally Jew and Gentiles. That's not all without expectation, both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit from the death of Christ. His Death is savingly universal in scope and not just for Jews.

what does "savingly" mean? That is not a word.

 

[atpollard]

what does "savingly" mean? That is not a word.

savingly (adverb)​

sav·ing·ly
1: in a saving manner : frugally
2: in a manner that brings salvation : so as to redeem
from Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Doug Brents]

savingly (adverb)​

sav·ing·ly
1: in a saving manner : frugally
2: in a manner that brings salvation : so as to redeem
from Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I stand corrected. Thank you. I've never see or heard that word used.

saved universally Jew and Gentiles. That's not all without expectation, both Jews and Gentiles savingly benefit from the death of Christ. His Death is savingly universal in scope and not just for Jews.

I never said His death only impacted the Jews. It impacts every single soul ever created. But as stated, not all of them are saved by His death. Only those who exhibit faith in Christ Jesus will be saved. His death is not just for the "elect", as you so ardently espouse.