Muhammad is not Equal to Jesus But Jesus is Equal to Allah!

Matthias said:
I’ll ask you a question that more than one Muslim has asked me: In your theology, was there ever a time when Jesus, who has always existed and always will exist, wasn’t alive?
Click to expand...

The Birth Narratives of Jesus in the Quran : A Christian Analysis

www.answering-islam.org

Islam Agrees – Jesus Has No Beginning!

www.answering-islam.org

The Crucifixion of Christ - A Christian Critique of the Quran

www.answering-islam.org

The Uniqueness of Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

www.answering-islam.org

The Deity of Christ and the Challenge of the Quran

www.answering-islam.org

Jesus' Divine Claims and Islam: An Examination of Biblical Christology In Light of the Quranic View of Allah's Attributes

www.answering-islam.org

Enough here to keep you goin @Matthias
J.
 
 
Matthias said:
Allah has no son. Jesus has a beginning in Islam and in the birth narratives found in Matthew and Luke.
Click to expand...
No-

Jesus, God the Son, was not created. He has always existed; He has no beginning or end. The Son took on human flesh at a particular point in human history (John 1:14).

Christians refer to this event as the Incarnation (“the act of being made flesh”). This act was integral to our salvation (Galatians 4:4–5; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 9:22). From the Incarnation onward, the eternal, uncreated Son is both truly God and truly man. But there was never a time when the Son did not exist. He was never created. Jesus always was and will forever remain “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13).
J.
 
Azriel said:
I think you would have to define your terms. Exactly what is alive. Have a pulse? Be able to walk and talk? The Romans made pretty sure he was dead physically (had no pulse) before they allowed him to be taken off that cross. After the resurrection Jesus was definitely able to walk and talk.

The real question is... Why did Jesus die? The Bible says that Jesus’ death was the only way for redemption. That means someone holy and perfect had to die. Someone not tainted by sin. Someone born of a virgin. God himself.”
Click to expand...
Yep 👍🏼
 
Johann said:
No-

Jesus, God the Son, was not created. He has always existed; He has no beginning or end. The Son took on human flesh at a particular point in human history (John 1:14).

Christians refer to this event as the Incarnation (“the act of being made flesh”). This act was integral to our salvation (Galatians 4:4–5; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 9:22). From the Incarnation onward, the eternal, uncreated Son is both truly God and truly man. But there was never a time when the Son did not exist. He was never created. Jesus always was and will forever remain “our great God and Savior” (Titus 2:13).
J.
Click to expand...

“According to Islamic theology, every being that is not Allah is a created being that is not eternal or infinitely preexisting.”


 
Azriel said:
I think you would have to define your terms. Exactly what is alive. Have a pulse? Be able to walk and talk? The Romans made pretty sure he was dead physically (had no pulse) before they allowed him to be taken off that cross. After the resurrection Jesus was definitely able to walk and talk.
Click to expand...

The Muslims didn’t define any terms. They simply asked the question as it is worded.

The Muslims don’t believe that Jesus was crucified.

Azriel said:
The real question is... Why did Jesus die? The Bible says that Jesus’ death was the only way for redemption. That means someone holy and perfect had to die. Someone not tainted by sin. Someone born of a virgin. God himself.”
Click to expand...
 
Matthias said:
“According to Islamic theology, every being that is not Allah is a created being that is not eternal or infinitely preexisting.”


Click to expand...
How Muslim reasoning leads to belief in the uncreatedness of Christ

Sam Shamoun

This article will be quite short. According to orthodox Sunni beliefs, the Quran is the speech or word of Allah and is therefore uncreated. Muslim scholars have reasoned that Allah’s speech cannot be created since it comes or originates directly from him, and nothing created comes from him. As one Muslim puts it:

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur'an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.

In a rare instance of classic kalâm reasoning, Imam Malik gave the most succinct[sic] statement of this doctrine: "The Qur'an is the Speech of Allah, the Speech of Allah comes from Him, and nothing created comes from Allah Most High." Narrated by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:416). (G.F. Haddad, The Uncreatedness of the Divine Speech: The Glorious Qur'an)

It is amazing that these Muslims could not see how the same reasoning which led them to conclude that the Quran is not created can be used more forcefully to prove that Christ himself must also be uncreated.

After all, the Quran itself testifies that Jesus is Allah’s Speech/Word and Spirit which came directly from Allah:

O ye who have received the scriptures, exceed not the just bounds in your religion, neither say of God [any other] than the truth. Verily Christ Jesus the son of Mary [is] the apostle of God, and his word (wa-kalimatuhu), which he conveyed into Mary, and a spirit [proceeding] FROM him (wa-roohun minhu). Believe therefore in God, and his apostles, and say not, [there are] three [Gods]; forbear [this]; it will be better for you. God is but one God. Far be it from him that he should have a son. Q. 4:171 Sale

The angels said, ‘Mary, God gives you news of a Word FROM Him (bi-kalimatin minhu), whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God. S. 3:45 Sale – cf. Q. 3:39

Here is how another English version translates this verse:

“Behold,” the angels told Mary, “God has given you the glad news of the coming birth of a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God.” Muhammad Sarwar

The Muslim scripture further claims that Jesus is a Mercy from Allah for mankind:

And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us (wa-rahmatan minna), and it is a thing ordained. S. 19:16-21 Pickthall

If the Muslims were to consistently apply their logic at this point then this is the conclusion which they would come to concerning the Person of Christ:

Jesus is the Speech/Word, Spirit, and Mercy of/from Allah.
Allah’s Speech/Word, Spirit and Mercy come directly from Allah.
Nothing created comes from Allah.
Therefore, Jesus must have always existed!
What makes this even more amazing is that the Quran is nowhere explicitly called Allah’s word. In fact, a Muslim will not be able find within their respective scripture a verse which says that the Quran is the word of Allah in those exact words. This is an inference drawn from a few texts, such as the following:

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. S. 9:6 Pickthall

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27 Y. Ali

However, these texts are not as clear as the passages in the Quran where Jesus is unambiguously identified as “a Word from Allah” or “His [Allah’s] Word”.

In light of this, how much more would the reasoning employed by Muslims to establish that the Quran is uncreated apply to Christ when he is explicitly said to be the very Word of Allah and a Spirit and Mercy which directly came from him!

It is evident why Muslims are hesitant to use this logic to conclude that Jesus’ personal existence also has no beginning like the Quran. The Islamic scripture claims that Christ is nothing more than a servant:

Jesus is no more than a servant whom we favoured, and proposed as an instance of divine power to the children of Israel. S. 43:59 Rodwell

Yet, in saying this, the Quran is merely contradicting itself since it clearly testifies that Jesus is much more than a mere slave. He is also the Messiah, the Word of Allah and His Mercy and Spirit which was sent to Mary, as well as a mighty miracle working Apostle who could give life to inanimate objects by simply breathing into them, such as birds which he would cause to come alive after creating them from clay.

As it stands, the Quran clearly bears witness to the uncreated essence and the eternal prehuman existence of Christ since it identifies him as the Speech/Word of Allah, as well as a Spirit and Mercy which comes directly from him. According to Muslims, Allah’s Speech/Word is uncreated since it comes from him, and anything which comes from him cannot be created. Hence, since Jesus is Allah’s Word, as well as a Spirit and Mercy from Allah, he must be uncreated as well.

Hence, if Muslims are going to apply their logic consistently then there’s simply no way for them to get around this argument.

Now that’s the real question, whether Muslims will be consistent or not. If they do then they will have no choice but to embrace Jesus Christ as their very Lord God and Savior.

Our prayer is that God’s sovereign Spirit will enable them to be consistent in their reasoning so as to come to the point where they confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh to the glory of God the Father.


Related Articles

Muhammad's attempt of damage control (How Surah 3:7 suddenly makes sense)
Qur'an Contradiction: Is Jesus God or Not?
Quran Inconsistency: Is Jesus Like Adam?
Jesus as the Mercy of Allah: More Quranic Evidence for the Divinity of Christ
Jesus – The Preexistent, Divine Word and Spirit from God

J.
 
Johann said:
How Muslim reasoning leads to belief in the uncreatedness of Christ

Sam Shamoun

This article will be quite short. According to orthodox Sunni beliefs, the Quran is the speech or word of Allah and is therefore uncreated. Muslim scholars have reasoned that Allah’s speech cannot be created since it comes or originates directly from him, and nothing created comes from him. As one Muslim puts it:

Ahl al-Sunna agree one and all that the Qur'an is the pre-existent, pre-eternal, uncreated Speech of Allah Most High on the evidence of the Qur'an, the Sunna, and faith-guided reason.

In a rare instance of classic kalâm reasoning, Imam Malik gave the most succinct[sic] statement of this doctrine: "The Qur'an is the Speech of Allah, the Speech of Allah comes from Him, and nothing created comes from Allah Most High." Narrated by al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:416). (G.F. Haddad, The Uncreatedness of the Divine Speech: The Glorious Qur'an)

It is amazing that these Muslims could not see how the same reasoning which led them to conclude that the Quran is not created can be used more forcefully to prove that Christ himself must also be uncreated.

After all, the Quran itself testifies that Jesus is Allah’s Speech/Word and Spirit which came directly from Allah:

O ye who have received the scriptures, exceed not the just bounds in your religion, neither say of God [any other] than the truth. Verily Christ Jesus the son of Mary [is] the apostle of God, and his word (wa-kalimatuhu), which he conveyed into Mary, and a spirit [proceeding] FROM him (wa-roohun minhu). Believe therefore in God, and his apostles, and say not, [there are] three [Gods]; forbear [this]; it will be better for you. God is but one God. Far be it from him that he should have a son. Q. 4:171 Sale

The angels said, ‘Mary, God gives you news of a Word FROM Him (bi-kalimatin minhu), whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be held in honour in this world and the next, who will be one of those brought near to God. S. 3:45 Sale – cf. Q. 3:39

Here is how another English version translates this verse:

“Behold,” the angels told Mary, “God has given you the glad news of the coming birth of a son whom He calls His Word, whose name will be Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, who will be a man of honor in this life and the life to come, and who will be one of the ones nearest to God.” Muhammad Sarwar

The Muslim scripture further claims that Jesus is a Mercy from Allah for mankind:

And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us (wa-rahmatan minna), and it is a thing ordained. S. 19:16-21 Pickthall

If the Muslims were to consistently apply their logic at this point then this is the conclusion which they would come to concerning the Person of Christ:

Jesus is the Speech/Word, Spirit, and Mercy of/from Allah.
Allah’s Speech/Word, Spirit and Mercy come directly from Allah.
Nothing created comes from Allah.
Therefore, Jesus must have always existed!
What makes this even more amazing is that the Quran is nowhere explicitly called Allah’s word. In fact, a Muslim will not be able find within their respective scripture a verse which says that the Quran is the word of Allah in those exact words. This is an inference drawn from a few texts, such as the following:

And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. S. 9:6 Pickthall

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27 Y. Ali

However, these texts are not as clear as the passages in the Quran where Jesus is unambiguously identified as “a Word from Allah” or “His [Allah’s] Word”.

In light of this, how much more would the reasoning employed by Muslims to establish that the Quran is uncreated apply to Christ when he is explicitly said to be the very Word of Allah and a Spirit and Mercy which directly came from him!

It is evident why Muslims are hesitant to use this logic to conclude that Jesus’ personal existence also has no beginning like the Quran. The Islamic scripture claims that Christ is nothing more than a servant:

Jesus is no more than a servant whom we favoured, and proposed as an instance of divine power to the children of Israel. S. 43:59 Rodwell

Yet, in saying this, the Quran is merely contradicting itself since it clearly testifies that Jesus is much more than a mere slave. He is also the Messiah, the Word of Allah and His Mercy and Spirit which was sent to Mary, as well as a mighty miracle working Apostle who could give life to inanimate objects by simply breathing into them, such as birds which he would cause to come alive after creating them from clay.

As it stands, the Quran clearly bears witness to the uncreated essence and the eternal prehuman existence of Christ since it identifies him as the Speech/Word of Allah, as well as a Spirit and Mercy which comes directly from him. According to Muslims, Allah’s Speech/Word is uncreated since it comes from him, and anything which comes from him cannot be created. Hence, since Jesus is Allah’s Word, as well as a Spirit and Mercy from Allah, he must be uncreated as well.

Hence, if Muslims are going to apply their logic consistently then there’s simply no way for them to get around this argument.

Now that’s the real question, whether Muslims will be consistent or not. If they do then they will have no choice but to embrace Jesus Christ as their very Lord God and Savior.

Our prayer is that God’s sovereign Spirit will enable them to be consistent in their reasoning so as to come to the point where they confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh to the glory of God the Father.


Related Articles

Muhammad's attempt of damage control (How Surah 3:7 suddenly makes sense)
Qur'an Contradiction: Is Jesus God or Not?
Quran Inconsistency: Is Jesus Like Adam?
Jesus as the Mercy of Allah: More Quranic Evidence for the Divinity of Christ
Jesus – The Preexistent, Divine Word and Spirit from God

J.
Click to expand...

Did you catch the connection with logos / sophia in Jewish thought?

Have you been reading the excerpts I posted from Dunn on the prologue in John’s Gospel?
 
Johann said:
Did you catch the fact the Messiah had no beginning.
Did you even read the article @Matthias?
J.
Click to expand...

No, I skimmed it. I‘ve told you that I don’t read long posts. It’s nothing personal. I don’t come here (or to any forum) to read long posts posted by anyone. I come here for casual conversation, and I’ve even told you why I do that.

I saw the connection with what Dunn is saying in the article. That’s what captured my attention.

Have you read the excepts I’ve posted from Dunn?
 
Matthias said:
No, I skimmed it. I told you that I don’t read long posts.

Have you read the excepts I’ve posted from Dunn?
Click to expand...
if you skim read long posts-how do you read books?
And you are diverting-from the FACT that Messiah had no beginning to Dunn-I don't read Dunn-but apologetic works.
J.
 
Matthias said:
I’ll ask you a question that more than one Muslim has asked me: In your theology, was there ever a time when Jesus, who has always existed and always will exist, wasn’t alive?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Until The Word of God was virgin born, Jesus the Man didn't exist.

Jesus wasn't a man "pre-incarnate" He was ""the Word was God", John 1.

He was..>"Let US.... make man... in OUR Image".

See those 2?

That is Father God and "the Word became flesh" and dwelt among us", yet before He did, He was not IN a human body.

Jesus told us.......

"I am from Above, and You are from Below",...... and that is Jesus the man, referring to Himself as pre-incarnate as "The Word Was God", and "The Bread who came down from Heaven".

Jesus refers to Himself as " I Am"... and that is the name that He gave Moses from the Burning Bush. 'I Am that I Am"... or as Jesus told them.. "before Abraham was born, I Am".

Notice the "I Am" is capitalized... in Jesus's words.
 
Behold said:
Yes.

Until The Word of God was virgin born, Jesus the Man didn't exist.

Jesus wasn't a man "pre-incarnate" He was ""the Word was God", John 1.

He was..>"Let US.... make man... in OUR Image".

See those 2?

That is Father God and "the Word became flesh" and dwelt among us", yet before He did, He was not IN a human body.

Jesus told us.......

"I am from Above, and You are from Below",...... and that is Jesus the man, referring to Himself as pre-incarnate as "The Word Was God", and "The Bread who came down from Heaven".

Jesus refers to Himself as " I Am"... and that is the name that He gave Moses from the Burning Bush. 'I Am that I Am"... or as Jesus told them.. "before Abraham was born, I Am".

Notice the "I Am" is capitalized... in Jesus's words.
Click to expand...
God thinks it, Jesus speaks it and the Holy Spirit accomplishes it. Three in one The Trinity
 
Fool4Christ said:
God thinks it, Jesus speaks it and the Holy Spirit accomplishes it. Three in one The Trinity
Click to expand...

Jesus is the WORD of God, manifested in the FLESH " (Virgin born man).

God SPOKE creation into existence.. = Christ is the WORD..... so, God is speaking and Jesus is the pre-incarnate Word.

Then look at John 1:10.. It says that Jesus made the WORLD.

Colossians 1:16 says that Jesus made it all.

That is God creating using the Word, ("who was made flesh")..... who is : John 1, ""and the Word was God.""
 
Johann said:

Muhammad is not Equal to Jesus But Jesus is Equal to Allah!​

Click to expand...
Totally unimportant as is ALL of ISLAM. Nothing but word games.

ISLAM teaches that Jesus DID NOT DIE on the cross. Consequently, ISLAM is a totally useless theology, which dooms everybody that believes its lie to HELL, Since there's NO SAVIOR, and the fools teach that there's no need of one. They say say all the "Nice things" they want about Jesus, talk about His miraculous birth, and praise His teaching (their own version of it anyway), but without His SIN OFFERING, they've GOT NOTHING.
 

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