Love and Death

[Behold]

It says WHOM He foreknew, not WHAT He foreknew.

Yes, you can't be born, that God didnt KNOW it was going to happen.

And you can't believe in Jesus or die a Christ rejector, that God does not FOREKNOW IT, before He created the Earth.

All things are KNOWN by God, be-FORE.. they happen next.

That is "God's Foreknowledge". not God pre-destining it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It says WHOM He foreknew, not WHAT He foreknew.

In this case, as he mentioned, it involves "whom" and "what". You are unnecessarily trying to confine his statement to whom.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There's a distinct pattern in these forums. We non-free-willers discuss scriptures, but the responses seem to be (mostly) limited to "This Calvinist says..." and "This theologian says..." and "Those horrible Calvinists always do this..."

I said it was another reason and didn't include you specifically in making the argument.

I think it is fair to say that you're making Calvinistic arguments in a "Calvinism vs Arminianism" sub forum.

I rightfully dealt with where the issue lead that you introduced. I did not appeal to Job. You did.

 

[civic]

There's a distinct pattern in these forums. We non-free-willers discuss scriptures, but the responses seem to be (mostly) limited to "This Calvinist says..." and "This theologian says..." and "Those horrible Calvinists always do this..."

Projecting try comparing your tiny amount of scripture you reference with that of the non Calvinists. It’s not even a comparison, it’s a landslide in our favor

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Projecting try comparing your tiny amount of scripture you reference with that of the non Calvinists. It’s not even a comparison, it’s a landslide in our favor

Well, it's true you sometimes list a whole ton of copy/paste scriptures with no explanation as to why they matter. You just assume they somehow disprove the scripture you're addressing. Like, in the middle of a discussion about whether or not faith is a gift, you guys list a whole bunch of scriptures about "to be saved you must believe", as if that proves belief is a human effort, not a gift.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, it's true you sometimes list a whole ton of copy/paste scriptures with no explanation as to why they matter. You just assume they somehow disprove the scripture you're addressing. Like, in the middle of a discussion about whether or not faith is a gift, you guys list a whole bunch of scriptures about "to be saved you must believe", as if that proves belief is a human effort, not a gift.

Don't you have to have something to believe? If it is a gift as you suppose, then give some thought to how you need to know English to even discern what is "gifted".

The message is the gift. You can't believe something you don't know anything about.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Don't have to have something to believe? If it is a gift as you suppose, then give some thought to how you need to know English to even discern what is "gifted".

The message is the gift. You can't believe something you don't know anything about.

Excellent. I made that point a number of times. Believing is not a choice, free will or otherwise. First you have to know the information. And then, when you are convinced something is true, you believe it.

Only I also made the point that the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. You can't believe the Gospel unless you are somehow enabled to be convinced that it is true. That's why the verse is "Faith comes by hearing, and HEARING [COMES] BY THE WORD OF GOD/CHRIST". Unless you're given hearing (the ability to understand what you hear), the Gospel is just nonsense.

That's also said here: And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent. I made that point a number of times. Believing is not a choice, free will or otherwise. First you have to know the information. And then, when you are convinced something is true, you believe it.

This isn't exactly what I said. You're jumping ahead.

I've tried to have this conversation with you before. If you claim that faith is an immediate gift from God, then what you're saying is true. However, faith is made up of multiple aspects/parts. You're jumping past what I said as being part of the process.

Why do you need to know English to know these "mysteries"? You can't know something without the tongues of men. Did God teach you English? How long did that take?

Only I also made the point that the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. You can't believe the Gospel unless you are somehow enabled to be convinced that it is true. That's why the verse is "Faith comes by hearing, and HEARING [COMES] BY THE WORD OF GOD/CHRIST". Unless you're given hearing (the ability to understand what you hear), the Gospel is just nonsense.

That's also said here: And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

No. It is foolishness to those who reject it. (Perish). There are many causes. You're insisting that your premise is the only possible reason instead of establishing that premise.

You can't understand the Gospel in English if you don't know English. Which comes from man.

 

[TibiasDad]

Okay, the subject line is click bait, but I do love Woody Allen's movie, "Love and Death".

Free-willers say that non-free willers don't take into account the love of God.

I would say free-willers don't really accept the sovereignty of God.

Discuss.

I would say that we don’t accept your definition of sovereignty.

Sovereignty simply means that, in this case God, has the ultimate say so in every situation, and that no other power can overcome or overpower his decision.

I like to say that God, being Sovereign, is not subject to our rules, he plays by his own rules. We see this time after time in the OT, such as with Jacob and Esau. Man’s rules say the oldest son gets the inheritance, but God says no, the older will serve the younger. Those are God’s rules. We see the same thing with David being exalted to being the King of Israel over his seven older brothers.

In Romans 9-11, Paul is, on the one hand, dealing with the Jewish brothers feeling left out because God let the Gentiles in and they now controlled the local church, and one the other hand, that the Gentiles were feeling superior to the Jews because they believed and the Jews, as a whole, didn’t believe in Jesus.

The Jews thought the rules said “salvation is of the Jews, therefore, they are first and more important, but God said my rules say that if the Jews won’t believe, that he will “go to a people who are not a people”, the Gentiles who will believe. Why, because he is sovereign and he makes the rules that he plays by, and it’s not our rules.

God set them both straight and said if the Jews would believe that they would be grafted back into the tree from which they were cut off, and that if the gentiles were to stop believing, that they too could be cut off just like the Jewish “natural branches”.

God has mercy on those in whom he finds belief, and he hardens those in whom he finds rebellion. Man’s rules do not establish the criteria of mercy, but God’s rules!


Doug

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I would say that we don’t accept your definition of sovereignty.

Sovereignty simply means that, in this case God, has the ultimate say so in every situation, and that no other power can overcome or overpower his decision.

I like to say that God, being Sovereign, is not subject to our rules, he plays by his own rules. We see this time after time in the OT, such as with Jacob and Esau. Man’s rules say the oldest son gets the inheritance, but God says no, the older will serve the younger. Those are God’s rules. We see the same thing with David being exalted to being the King of Israel over his seven older brothers.

In Romans 9-11, Paul is, on the one hand, dealing with the Jewish brothers feeling left out because God let the Gentiles in and they now controlled the local church, and one the other hand, that the Gentiles were feeling superior to the Jews because they believed and the Jews, as a whole, didn’t believe in Jesus.

The Jews thought the rules said “salvation is of the Jews, therefore, they are first and more important, but God said my rules say that if the Jews won’t believe, that he will “go to a people who are not a people”, the Gentiles who will believe. Why, because he is sovereign and he makes the rules that he plays by, and it’s not our rules.

God set them both straight and said if the Jews would believe that they would be grafted back into the tree from which they were cut off, and that if the gentiles were to stop believing, that they too could be cut off just like the Jewish “natural branches”.

God has mercy on those in whom he finds belief, and he hardens those in whom he finds rebellion. Man’s rules do not establish the criteria of mercy, but God’s rules!


Doug

Are you the same Doug who said nobody's sin could be cleansed until Calvary? Because that doesn't sound like a person who believes God is not subject to our rules.

 

[Presby02]

An honest Calvinist who understands what sovereign means.

Paul D. Miller of The Gospel Coalition

What does it mean to say that God is sovereign? The refrain has become so common, almost clichéd, in Reformed writing and preaching that it sometimes slips away from the reader or listener without lodging meaning in the mind. Worse, we typically hear the phrase to mean something it doesn’t. When Christians affirm that “God is sovereign,” they often mean “God is in control.” Paul Tripp, for example, wrote in his excellent book Lost in the Middle that “God truly is sovereign . . . there is no situation, relationship, or circumstance that is not controlled by our heavenly Father.”

The problem is that the English word sovereignty does not mean control. The U. S. government is sovereign within American territory, but that doesn’t mean the government controls everything within American borders or causes all that happens. If you look up sovereignty in the dictionary you’ll not find control in the definition—nor even as a synonym in a thesaurus.

hope this helps !!!

Honest because he agrees with you.

 

[Presby02]

John Calvin is not God.

LOL, exactly.

 

[civic]

Honest because he agrees with you.

Because he can be objective and unbiased as demonstrated

 

[Presby02]

Because he can be objective and unbiased as demonstrated

Exactly. Honest and unbiased because he agrees with you. If they don't you infer they are liars like John MacArthur.

 

[civic]

Exactly. Honest and unbiased because he agrees with you. If they don't you infer they are liars like John MacArthur.

No because he defined the word true to the biblical definition not a theological biased one like you. There was no deception with the definition trying to mislead others.

Next

 

[Presby02]

No because he defined the word true to the biblical definition not a theological biased one like you. There was no deception with the definition trying to mislead others.

Next

He did? Or do you assume because you need his to be correct?

 

[civic]

He did? Or do you assume because you need his to be correct?

Not interested in your rabbit trails of questions since you cannot engage with the text , definitions or arguments . They are nothing but diversions

 

[Presby02]

Not interested in your rabbit trails of questions since you cannot engage with the text , definitions or arguments . They are nothing but diversions

LOL, now you know how I feel.

I will engage you anytime anywhere. Your what is known as low hanging fruit. Easy pickens

 

[civic]

LOL, now you know how I feel.

I will engage you anytime anywhere. Your what is known as low hanging fruit. Easy pickens

You never engage the scripture and exegete only ask questions .

Next

 

[TibiasDad]

Are you the same Doug who said nobody's sin could be cleansed until Calvary?

The blood of bulls and goats could not cleanse from sin, so sins cannot be cleansed by anything other than the blood of Christ.

Because that doesn't sound like a person who believes God is not subject to our rules.

The blood of bulls and goats are not man’s rules, it was God’s rule.


Doug