Love and Death

Perfect explanation! I like how Theodicy deals with the problem of evil and suffering in a world supposedly governed by a sovereign God. When in fact the bible clearly tells us that Satan is the ruler of this fallen world.

in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 Scripture Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Satan-As-The-Prince-Of-This-World

If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist? It's interesting to study the various explanations that have been proposed, including the idea that God allows evil for a greater purpose.

The concept of God’s sovereignty is often linked to the idea of divine providence. According to this view, God actively governs and orchestrates events in the world, including both natural occurrences and human actions. Nothing happens without God’s knowledge or permission.

The problem that a lot of people have with that is the issue of sin. When God created Adam and Eve did he know and give his permission that they would fall into sin? And through their offspring so would the rest of the world?

If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist? What I find interesting in the various explanations is that most of them are talking back to God, as if we have the right to object to what God does and does not do. It's pure hubris.

The only response that I find acceptable is that of Job.

2 “I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

I also find it significant that, after God has permitted Satan to destroy Job's life, after all the misery Job has been through, what does God say? "Job, I am love"? No, God declares "Who do you think you are? Where were you when I created all things?" God responds with a declaration of his sovereignty over all creation. And it is only when Job repents of talking back to God that God restored his fortunes twofold.
 
Perfect explanation! I like how Theodicy deals with the problem of evil and suffering in a world supposedly governed by a sovereign God. When in fact the bible clearly tells us that Satan is the ruler of this fallen world.

in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 Scripture Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Satan-As-The-Prince-Of-This-World

If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist? It's interesting to study the various explanations that have been proposed, including the idea that God allows evil for a greater purpose.

The concept of God’s sovereignty is often linked to the idea of divine providence. According to this view, God actively governs and orchestrates events in the world, including both natural occurrences and human actions. Nothing happens without God’s knowledge or permission.

The problem that a lot of people have with that is the issue of sin. When God created Adam and Eve did he know and give his permission that they would fall into sin? And through their offspring so would the rest of the world?
Amen
 
Sovereignty in the context of Romans 9 is that God is our sovereign creator, and He has the right to do whatever he pleases with His creation, including making some people for glory and others fitted for destruction. If you find that objectionable, you are talking back to God, which you are in no position to do since you are one of His created beings. You are not God.

I can agree with your words. However, this is a much higher level of argument than making the claim that God meticulously predestined all things because He is Sovereign over His creation.

The question that plausibly be addressed here is "why didn't you do more" to make all the lump have the same outcome.

This is Universalism. None of us are Universalists.
 
I also find it significant that, after God has permitted Satan to destroy Job's life, after all the misery Job has been through, what does God say? "Job, I am love"?
Lesson for you maybe to learn? God doesn't have to say everything about himself in EVERY book of the Bible. Did he say it in ANY book of the Bible?
YES.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 Jn 4: 8



 
If God is all-powerful and all-loving, why does evil exist? What I find interesting in the various explanations is that most of them are talking back to God, as if we have the right to object to what God does and does not do. It's pure hubris.

The only response that I find acceptable is that of Job.

2 “I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

I also find it significant that, after God has permitted Satan to destroy Job's life, after all the misery Job has been through, what does God say? "Job, I am love"? No, God declares "Who do you think you are? Where were you when I created all things?" God responds with a declaration of his sovereignty over all creation. And it is only when Job repents of talking back to God that God restored his fortunes twofold.
Yawn the eisegesis continues.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (a.) Supreme or highest in power; superior to all others; chief; as, our sovereign prince.
2. (a.) Independent of, and unlimited by, any other; possessing, or entitled to, original authority or jurisdiction; as, a sovereign state; a sovereign discretion.

3. (a.) Princely; royal.

4. (a.) Predominant; greatest; utmost; paramount.

5. (a.) Efficacious in the highest degree; effectual; controlling; as, a sovereign remedy.

6. (n.) The person, body, or state in which independent and supreme authority is vested; especially, in a monarchy, a king, queen, or emperor.

7. (n.) A gold coin of Great Britain, on which an effigy of the head of the reigning king or queen is stamped, valued at one pound sterling, or about USD4.86.

8. (n.) Any butterfly of the tribe Nymphalidi, or genus Basilarchia, as the Ursula and the viceroy.

Greek
935. basileus -- a king
... Cognate: 935 -- a (sovereign); often referring to Christ who is "the King of kings"
(Rev 19:16), ie King over the Kingdom of the heavens (God). ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/935.htm - 7k
3841. pantokrator -- almighty
... Almighty, Omnipotent. From pas and kratos; the all-ruling, ie God (as absolute and
universal sovereign) -- Almighty, Omnipotent. see GREEK pas. see GREEK kratos ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3841.htm - 7k

3008. leitourgeo -- to serve the state, ie by anal. to perform ...
... Cognate: 3008 (from 3011 , "someone who officially serves sovereign and community") --
properly, to in an official (technical, authorized) capacity, especially ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/3008.htm - 7k

4654. skotizo -- to darken
... His life). This verb form focuses on the sovereign action of God (versus
the impact of it with 4656 ). See 4655 (). Word Origin ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/4654.htm - 7k

1413. dunastes -- a ruler, a potentate
... See 1411 (). Word Origin from dunamai Definition a ruler, a potentate NASB Word
Usage court official (1), rulers (1), Sovereign (1). ruler, officer, potentate. ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/1413.htm - 6k

5050. teleiosis -- completion, perfection
... further consummation and 5054 () -- a third feminine noun derived from this root
meaning "death (consummation) in relation to the Lord's sovereign control of ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/5050.htm - 7k

937. basilikos -- royal
... From basileus; regal (in relation), ie (literally) belonging to (or befitting) the
sovereign (as land, dress, or a courtier), or (figuratively) preeminent ...
//strongsnumbers.com/greek2/937.htm - 7k

Strong's Hebrew
113. adon -- lord
... lord, master, owner. Or (shortened) adon {aw-done'}; from an unused root (meaning
to rule); sovereign, ie Controller (human or divine) -- lord, master, owner.
 
Lesson for you maybe to learn? God doesn't have to say everything about himself in EVERY book of the Bible. Did he say it in ANY book of the Bible?
YES.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 Jn 4: 8

To me, it is clear that God showed His love toward Job in his suffering. God was with Job IN his suffering.

Which is a life lesson we must learn. Love doesn't keep us from learning about ourselves. Love chastens......

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
 
Lesson for you maybe to learn? God doesn't have to say everything about himself in EVERY book of the Bible. Did he say it in ANY book of the Bible?
YES.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 Jn 4: 8

God is love. But you're missing the point. God's response to any objection to how He handles the universe is not "I am love" but "I am the sovereign CREATOR of all things, and you have no right to object."

So when people say the problem with non-free-willers is that they discount the fact that God is love, I say the people who object to Romans 9 are discounting the fact that God is sovereign, and any objection they may have to the message of Romans 9 is pure hubris, and you should repent as Job did.
 
God is love. But you're missing the point. God's response to any objection to how He handles the universe is not "I am love" but "I am the sovereign CREATOR of all things, and you have no right to object."

So when people say the problem with non-free-willers is that they discount the fact that God is love, I say the people who object to Romans 9 are discounting the fact that God is sovereign, and any objection they may have to the message of Romans 9 is pure hubris, and you should repent as Job did.
You misunderstand Job and the process he endured. Job only knew what others had told him. What others had told him was WRONG.....

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Which is the trial of faith that all experience when they become babies in Christ. Job now saw God for who He was and it was all about love. You know how we know?

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends:

God didn't change Job's circumstances until JOB changed.......

Notice how JOB changed.... He prayed for the one's that caused some of his problems.

Empathy. Empathy for all of mankind. Job didn't know himself nor God as much as he thought he did. It is impossible to have a rewarding relationship with God without empathy for all men.

Which is another reason why Calvinism is so horribly flawed.
 
God is love. But you're missing the point. God's response to any objection to how He handles the universe is not "I am love" but "I am the sovereign CREATOR of all things, and you have no right to object."

So when people say the problem with non-free-willers is that they discount the fact that God is love, I say the people who object to Romans 9 are discounting the fact that God is sovereign, and any objection they may have to the message of Romans 9 is pure hubris, and you should repent as Job did.
God is love and every other attribute stems from His love. I have proven this several times on the forum

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

Your theology is man centered whereas mine is God centered based on His immutability.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. Why? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

Let’s examine how this works in conjunction with Gods sovereignty and His love. God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect with God have been revealed plainly to us by God in His word. He has done this both through his word and his works. And God has sworn never to change for He is Immutable.

God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. The love of God has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign is found nowhere in the pages of scripture.

The fact that God can do something is not a justification for Him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that He can do is restricted by the standard that God values most which is His love. If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because He is sovereign. If God does it just because He is sovereign then He would not be God but something else.

What makes God, God is so intricately bound to his intent for doing things that if He were to do a thing just by virtue of the fact that He is sovereign and can do it rather than by virtue of the fact that it is loving? He would not be God as we know Him but something else. If sovereignty is what defines what makes up love in such a way that God doing anything is what defines love, then love has no meaning and can be anything and everything it is and opposes any time, which is ridiculous.

This below is from the Calvinist Theologian Abraham Kuyper on God is love:


“Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.

Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.

The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.

Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.

In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. “From his book on the Work of the Holy Spirit Volume 3, Second Chapter Love- xviii Love in the Triune Being of God “

Hope this helps !!!
 
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Okay, the subject line is click bait, but I do love Woody Allen's movie, "Love and Death".

Free-willers say that non-free willers don't take into account the love of God.

I would say free-willers don't really accept the sovereignty of God.

Discuss.

God is in ultimate control, yet allows for you to choose what you will do next.

The Foreknowledge of God, is not predestination.
 
Exactly they always conflate them

That is Calvin's "bewitching".

its that ONE Core "doctrine of Devils"

Calvin teaches that God's ForeKnowledge, is "pre-destination", and that is the LIE, and THEIR Confusion.

That is their Literal "Bewitching"..

Whereas...A person who has not been mind trapped by Calvin's spellbinding theology, can understand that God knowing everything that will happen next, is not the same as God causing it.

Calvin WARPED that into...>"Foreknowledge" redefined as "pre-destined".


Notice the "Pre-destined, ACCORDING to foreknowledge"..

Not CAUSED by it.

A.) KNOWN by it.

Calvins lie is..>"God knowing is God causing."

And that is a LIE, and BILLIONS are deceived by it.
 
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That is Calvin's "bewitching".

its that ONE Core "doctrine of Devils"

Calvin teaches that God's ForeKnowledge, is "pre-destination", and that is the LIE, and THEIR Confusion.

That is their Literal "Bewitching"..

Whereas...A person who has not been mind trapped by Calvin's spellbinding theology, can understand that God knowing everything that will happen next, is not the same as God causing it.

Calvin WARPED that into...>"Foreknowledge" redefined as "pre-destined".


Notice the "Pre-destined, ACCORDING to foreknowledge"..

Not CAUSED by it.

A.) KNOWN by it.

Calvins lie is..>"God knowing is God causing."

And that is a LIE, and BILLIONS are deceived by it.
Yes he was a tare among the wheat
 
That is Calvin's "bewitching".

its that ONE Core "doctrine of Devils"

Calvin teaches that God's ForeKnowledge, is "pre-destination", and that is the LIE, and THEIR Confusion.

That is their Literal "Bewitching"..

Whereas...A person who has not been mind trapped by Calvin's spellbinding theology, can understand that God knowing everything that will happen next, is not the same as God causing it.

Calvin WARPED that into...>"Foreknowledge" redefined as "pre-destined".


Notice the "Pre-destined, ACCORDING to foreknowledge"..

Not CAUSED by it.

A.) KNOWN by it.

Calvins lie is..>"God knowing is God causing."

And that is a LIE, and BILLIONS are deceived by it.

The way you are defining foreknowledge is foresight. That's not what scripture says. It says those whom He foreknew, not those ABOUT WHOM He foreknew. It's "KNEW BEFORE" in the same sense as "Depart from me, I NEVER KNEW YOU".
 
There's a distinct pattern in these forums. We non-free-willers discuss scriptures, but the responses seem to be (mostly) limited to "This Calvinist says..." and "This theologian says..." and "Those horrible Calvinists always do this..."
 
The way you are defining foreknowledge is foresight.


No,

ForeKnowledge is to know "before" it happens, what will exactly happen, next.

See, when the OT says..>"not one bone of His shall be broken", that is not fore-sight, that is REVELATION Knowledge, that is to FORE TELL, what is Known by GOD, before it happens.

And the reason the Bible can do that, is because God knew what was going to happen to Jesus, and He had it written down, as "prophecy".

This is the same as the NT, today.......in Matt 24..... where you have Jesus saying..."when YOU see the abomination of desolation"...

And that happens in the 2nd Half of the Trib, that is the GRT Trib.

And that is God's fore-knowledge as the prophecy being given by Jesus.
He says...

"when YOU see it"......and that is because He's already seen it.... as that is His "Fore-knowing" of what is to come... = God's Fore-Knowledge.
 
No,

ForeKnowledge is to know "before" it happens, what will exactly happen, next.

See, when the OT says..>"not one bone of His shall be broken", that is not fore-sight, that is REVELATION Knowledge, that is to FORE TELL, what is Known by GOD, before it happens.

And the reason the Bible can do that, is because God knew what was going to happen to Jesus, and He had it written down, as "prophecy".

This is the same as the NT, today.......in Matt 24..... where you have Jesus saying..."when YOU see the abomination of desolation"...

And that happens in the 2nd Half of the Trib, that is the GRT Trib.

And that is God's fore-knowledge as the prophecy being given by Jesus.
He says...

"when YOU see it"......and that is because He's already seen it.... as that is His "Fore-knowing" of what is to come... = God's Fore-Knowledge.

It says WHOM He foreknew, not WHAT He foreknew.
 
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