Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
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FreeInChrist
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IMO Spiritual because from what I have read the Bible teaches that the new heavens and the new earth will be real, not symbolic, and that redeemed people will live there in real, glorified bodies after their resurrection.
Scripture says God will create a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells, and that God Himself will dwell with His people there. Just as Jesus was raised bodily from the dead and remains human, believers will also be raised with glorified bodies and will live, see, worship, and serve God in this renewed creation forever. This is the final, physical fulfillment of God’s promise, not a spiritual illusion or temporary state.
And our glorified bodies that "believers" will have in the new heavens and new earth will be perfected, imperishable, free from sin, sickness, and death, just like Jesus’ resurrected body after His resurrection. They will still be real, physical bodies . They will be such that you can see, touch, and interact with them but they will be fully transformed to live in God’s eternal kingdom.
this is what I have come to believe with my studies and readings.
I agree completely that Jesus was raised bodily. But the Bible never says that Jesus' body was glorified. In Jesus' prayer to God, the Father, in John 17, He prays that the Father would glorify Him, Jesus, "with the glory that I had with the Father before the world was"(John17:5). Clearly, there is no body, only His Spirit, the Word, involved in that glory.
Yes I can deny that. They did not see Jesus exit the physical universe and enter heaven. They did not see Jesus being seated at the right hand of God. All they saw was Jesus disappearing into a cloud.
Again, it does not say, nor indicate, that He entered heaven bodily. As far as seeing Him return, I believe He will return and I believe that we will see that. But I cannot even imagine how that will be viewed by the vast numbers of people that will be involved in seeing Him return. Remember, all people will be raised, both those "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).
Also, in reading the passage in 2 Peter concerning the new heavens and new earth Peter says that "the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed" (2 Pet 3:10).
Paul tells us that "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil" (2 Cor 5:10).
John in Revelation 20:11-15, it seems clear that judgement seat is not on this earth, for John says, "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away"... (Rev 20:11).
I believe that at all of this will be accomplished when Jesus returns. At that point, this physical universe will no longer exist. Nothing physical will from this time on will exist. John says, "no place was found for them" (v.11). I believe that even time will cease to exist at that time. What will exist from that instant onward, I can't even imagine. I know what Paul says. He says,
1Co 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
I believe that the wording here concerning having borne the image of a man of dust that is changed to bearing the image of the man of heaven and the fact that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God says that the physical is done.
I will admit that this, to me, is one of those "curved balls" that get thrown our way every once in a while. I can convince myself that this is not to identity the make-up of the present form of Jesus but rather to Jesus was, as Albert Barnes say, "truly and properly a man, having a perfect human body and soul, and is often called a man in the New Testament". And with that He was, even so, God, not God the Father and not God the Holy Spirit, but rather God, the Son, Jesus Christ.
Who here does that? I don't.
Who here does that? I don't.
Who here does that? I don't.
I don't know about remaining in the flesh being Gnosticism, but I do know that Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".
And yet you are trying to convince me that the King of the kingdom of God is flesh and blood. So then, even though the subjects of the kingdom of God are not flesh and blood, the King is. Something there is just not right.
civic
Active Member
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen/ascended in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”
Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:
Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful(verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural(verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal(verse 53)
The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17,Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.
Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God.(Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul(Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body(soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body.
hope this helps !!!
First, I don't care what Jehovah's witness claims. It is of no consequence one way or the other to the discussion here.
Second, the difference between flesh and blood and flesh and bone is a distinction without any significance. He is saying that the spirit is separate and distinct from the body. He was not claiming that His physical body was any different after being raised from the dead than it was before being crucified. He is not claiming that His raised body of "flesh and bone" is without blood. Nothing He did to prove who He was to Thomas even hints at that. Frankly, to believe that is quite simply just plain stupid. Flesh is flesh, physical, mortal and temporal.
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civic
Active Member
its a big distinction with a difference- God says what He means and means what He says. Blood and bones are not the same. Jesus says not 1 jot or tittle will pass away until all be fulfilled. That means not even the smallest letter or even apostrophe will pass and they are the very words of God. Every jot/tittle serve an exact purpose in scripture. Not one iota or pen stroke will pass away.
hope this helps !!!
Sorry, that is simply not true. That is just a @civic's statement that is as wrong as any Jehovah Witnesses' statement.
That is correct, blood and bone are not the same, but flesh is flesh, same flesh after being raised as before being raised.
No you can't.
No it's not true at all. Worse. It is deceit.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
It is a major significance.
“Flesh and blood” in the mortal, fallen human condition
When Paul says:“Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50)
he is not saying that a body cannot be in heaven.
He is using a Hebrew idiom.
“Flesh and blood” means mortal, corruptible humanity with human life in its present fallen state.
Paul’s point is:
Mortal, perishable humanity cannot inherit the Kingdom.
It must be transformed.
That’s why he immediately says.....
“We shall all be changed… this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor 15:51–53)
What this means is flesh and blood = human nature under death and decay.
“Flesh and bones” refers to a real physical body, but now glorified
After the resurrection Jesus said.....
Luke 24:39 “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
Notice carefully.....
He does not say “flesh and blood.”
Why?
Because His body is no longer mortal.
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding
of blood there is no forgiveness.
His blood was poured out in death.
His risen body is immortal, incorruptible, glorified.
So Jesus deliberately says “flesh and bones” to show:
He is not a ghost
He is physically human
But He is no longer subject to death
How you should relate this to Jesus...
Before Resurrection After ResurrectionFlesh and blood (mortal) Flesh and bones (immortal)
Subject to death Can never die again, see Rom 6:9
Corruptible Incorruptible
Human body Glorified Human Body
Jesus is still human forever ...... but now the perfected, immortal kind of humanity that we will share.
Scripture says.....
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Not was — is.
And here is why the significance matters.
So the statement “flesh and blood vs flesh and bones is a distinction without significance” is simply wrong.It destroys the reality of the resurrection,~ the future bodily hope of believers, ~ and the truth that Jesus is still fully human in heaven.
And your Bible makes the distinction on purpose.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I do not believe in a glorified physical body.
He is saying that a physical body cannot be in heaven.
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