Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[praise_yeshua]

This is a good read take a look .

Raised a Spiritual Body (Gnosticism & Evangelicalism 3) - Robin Mark Phillips

This article was originally published in my column at the Colson Center. It is republished here with permission. For a complete directory of all my Colson Center articles, click here. “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual...

robinmarkphillips.com

here is a summary

The early church, which spoke Greek as its native tongue, understood these distinctions. In fact, the distinction between physical resurrection and a purely ‘spiritual’ nonphysical resurrection was absolutely central in dividing the true Christians from heretics like the ancient Gnostics. It was the early Christian’s understanding of physical resurrection which, perhaps more than any other doctrine, served to polarize the church of the canonical tradition from the anti-creational orientation of the Gnostics.

Not only Irenaeus, but Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, the writers of the Didache, Justin Martyr, Tertullian and many other early Christian writers went to great lengths to make clear that the bodies of departed Christians will be raised in a way comparative to the resurrection of our Blessed Lord. This doctrine found expression in the Nicene Creed and was reaffirmed in frequent Christian polemics against the Gnostics.

Far from matter and spirit being in competition with one another, the Christian doctrine of resurrection points towards the grand consecration of creation. It points to a time when our physical bodies will be taken up and transformed by God’s spirit to be everything they were meant to be (and more) before sin entered the picture. While the resurrection body will be many things that we cannot even now imagine (1 Cor. 2:9), we can be sure of this: it will be physical.

I'll go a little further. As I've mentioned before. The intent of God in creating man is the "new man" created in Christ Jesus.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[praise_yeshua]

Denying a bodily Resurrection of Jesus is Gnosticism
Denying heaven/ hell are real places is Gnosticism
Denying Jesus came in the flesh and remains in the flesh is Gnosticism- John says Gnosticism teaching comes from the very spirit of antichrist in 1John 4:2-3, 2 John 1:7

Which is why I referenced it as "blaspheme".

It can be forgiven but it is a real problem claiming a relationship to Jesus Christ while deny the essential aspects of WHO Jesus Christ is.

I know we understand this as Trinitarians and know the necessity of such teachings. Maybe it would be easier to talk about the "human soul/spirit" that Christ gained in the Incarnation.

Would they possibly deny such is still applicable to Person of Jesus Christ even NOW in heaven?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I do not believe in a glorified physical body.

Transfiguration?

What the disciples experienced is beyond understanding but there is not a doubt it is a physical body.

Which is why I say that the Jesus was already glorious in the flesh before His death.

I have much to say about this but I'll wait for you to deny this while telling me it is impossible to believe.

 

[Wick Stick]

He is saying that a physical body cannot be in heaven.

Neil Armstrong disagrees.

 

[Jim]

Neil Armstrong disagrees.

Well then, who else to consider?

 

[civic]

Well then, who else to consider?

Jesus and Paul

 

[Jim]

Transfiguration?

What the disciples experienced is beyond understanding but there is not a doubt it is a physical body.

Which is why I say that the Jesus was already glorious in the flesh before His death.

I have much to say about this but I'll wait for you to deny this while telling me it is impossible to believe.

I think the best explanation of that was it was the Spirit of the Son of God which was showing through the physical human nature and being presented to Peter, James and John. I do not believe that there was any change in his physical body. It may well be explained as the shekinah glory, the glory of God, showing through to the disciples.

 

[Jim]

Jesus and Paul

We have done that any they don't agree with you.

 

[civic]

We have done that any they don't agree with you.

You have done no such thing since they both taught exactly what I teach regarding the resurrection

 

[Jim]

You have done no such thing since they both taught exactly what I teach regarding the resurrection

No, they do not.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think the best explanation of that was it was the Spirit of the Son of God which was showing through the physical human nature and being presented to Peter, James and John. I do not believe that there was any change in his physical body. It may well be explained as the shekinah glory, the glory of God, showing through to the disciples.

I never said it was a change of the physical body.

At least admit this. At best, you're still describing a scenario wherein the flesh was a "lens" for such. This doesn't fit you "issue" with flesh at all.

Consider this.....Did the face of Moses SHINE?

There is weakness to our flesh but there is great potential. Things we do not understand fully. We are wonderful made. One of the most humbling events in our lives is to experience the disposition of death to begin to take hold of our bodies.

It is a catastrophic and extremely emotional experience for our flesh to be ripped from us in death. If means more to you than you think.

 

[Jim]

It is a catastrophic and extremely emotional experience for our flesh to be ripped from us in death. If means more to you than you think.

I will be ecstatic to trade this flesh for a spot in heaven with Jesus. Although I will admit, that if having my flesh ripped from me is the cause of my death, that would be more than a little catastrophic and more than just an extremely emotional experience.

 

[Wick Stick]

@Jim there are some problems with how you've framed your argument, but there's something to the idea that Jesus was changed between His resurrection, and His ascension.

John 20:17 [The risen] Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.'

1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So, yes, He was changed, but that doesn't make him not human. That's a bridge too far.

 

[Jim]

@Jim there are some problems with how you've framed your argument, but there's something to the idea that Jesus was changed between His resurrection, and His ascension.

John 20:17 [The risen] Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.'

1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So, yes, He was changed, but that doesn't make him not human. That's a bridge too far.

What is a human? If the designation human includes the physical body, then those in heaven are no longer human. I do not believe that in the next life, there will be anything resembling the physical nature of this universe. All things physical exist only in this physical universe and nothing outside of the physical universe is physical.

There is a common belief that the next life will be a return to the Garden of Eden, or at least a place as God originally created, except it will be free of a forbidden fruit and free of sin. I think that is a serious mistake. At the center of all discussions of this nature is the question of what precisely is meant by "new heavens and a new earth" such as is described in Isaiah65 17:25 or in Revelation 21. Whatever is meant by those and similar passages of the next life, such descriptions are not to be taken literally in any sense. We have no experiential association with the spiritual realm. We cannot even give a literal description of our own spirits. They are not physically testable or examinable; they are completely intangible. Our spirits are the incorporeal feature, the image of God, of our human existence.

I sincerely believe that in the next life our existence will mirror the existence of our incorporeal spirits and we will become acutely aware of what it means to be in the image of God.

It is you @Wick Stick who, I remember, once described the human as a soul, a living being, with a body and a spirit. I agree with your description and have taken it for my own description, as humans, we are souls, living beings, with bodies, physical bodies, and spirits. I believe that in the next life, we will be souls, living beings, with bodies, spiritual bodies, and spirits. For now, however, we have no idea whatsoever what the spiritual body will be; but it won't be physical, it won't be material, it won't be corporal.

 

[Wick Stick]

What is a human? If the designation human includes the physical body, then those in heaven are no longer human. I do not believe that in the next life, there will be anything resembling the physical nature of this universe. All things physical exist only in this physical universe and nothing outside of the physical universe is physical.

A human is an intelligence, a being of sentience and self-awareness. A human IS or HAS a spirit given by God.

The correct designation for 'has a body and can move' is animal.

By that definition, humans are animals... but we're also something more.

There is a common belief that the next life will be a return to the Garden of Eden, or at least a place as God originally created, except it will be free of a forbidden fruit and free of sin. I think that is a serious mistake.

I don't think the creation started off perfect. I think it started out a mess ("tohu and bohu"). That isn't the topic, but I mention it in order to say this... I agree that there's a mistake in that thinking.

At the center of all discussions of this nature is the question of what precisely is meant by "new heavens and a new earth" such as is described in Isaiah65 17:25 or in Revelation 21. Whatever is meant by those and similar passages of the next life, such descriptions are not to be taken literally in any sense.

Isaiah 65-66 isn't mysterious. It's talking about the revitalization of Israel and Judah, after God's judgment on them. It's the same message as Jeremiah 31. It's not a whole new universe it's talking about.

Revelation and 2Peter are less clear, but if they're referring back to Isaiah, then I reckon they mean the same thing.

We have no experiential association with the spiritual realm. We cannot even give a literal description of our own spirits. They are not physically testable or examinable; they are completely intangible. Our spirits are the incorporeal feature, the image of God, of our human existence.

I sincerely believe that in the next life our existence will mirror the existence of our incorporeal spirits and we will become acutely aware of what it means to be in the image of God.

If it's all so unknowable (and it is), then why are you so sure about the incorporeality of it?

Here's Paul saying he didn't know the answer to this question:

2Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

It is you @Wick Stick who, I remember, once described the human as a soul, a living being, with a body and a spirit. I agree with your description and have taken it for my own description, as humans, we are souls, living beings, with bodies, physical bodies, and spirits. I believe that in the next life, we will be souls, living beings, with bodies, spiritual bodies, and spirits.

All that aligns with Scripture and my own thoughts... though I wonder if we're defining all those words the same?

For now, however, we have no idea whatsoever what the spiritual body will be; but it won't be physical, it won't be material, it won't be corporal.

It depends on definitions. It isn't ψυχικός - 1Corinthians says not. I think a body must be corporeal, by definition. That word is just Latin for body:

Whether a spiritual body is made of material is open for debate. The Bible doesn't use the word material, it uses the word flesh. They aren't the same thing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I will be ecstatic to trade this flesh for a spot in heaven with Jesus. Although I will admit, that if having my flesh ripped from me is the cause of my death, that would be more than a little catastrophic and more than just an extremely emotional experience.

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Jim there are some problems with how you've framed your argument, but there's something to the idea that Jesus was changed between His resurrection, and His ascension.

John 20:17 [The risen] Jesus saith unto her, 'Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.'

1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So, yes, He was changed, but that doesn't make him not human. That's a bridge too far.

What changed. He had no need of change.

Remember, He is God Incarnate. We are not. We shall be changed.

I don't see any evidence that He changed in bodily form. He didn't see corruption. None of his bones were broken.

What needed to change? I'll listen.

 

[Jim]

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

I didn't say anything about hating my flesh. It is very valuable to me. But I will be quite happy to trade that very valuable asset for a very much more valuable asset of a non-corporal spiritual life in heaven.

 

[Jim]

A human is an intelligence, a being of sentience and self-awareness. A human IS or HAS a spirit given by God.

Has.

The correct designation for 'has a body and can move' is animal.

Agreed

By that definition, humans are animals... but we're also something more.

Agreed.

I don't think the creation started off perfect. I think it started out a mess ("tohu and bohu"). That isn't the topic, but I mention it in order to say this... I agree that there's a mistake in that thinking.

I don't know if I would call it a mess. I believe it started out in complete disorder. The order of the universe has increased continuously ever since. Some Hebrew theologians intimate that is the real meaning of the repeating phrase, "there was evening and there was morning", with evening suggesting a state of an opaqueness or haziness and morning suggesting a state of an increasing clarity and definition.

Isaiah 65-66 isn't mysterious. It's talking about the revitalization of Israel and Judah, after God's judgment on them. It's the same message as Jeremiah 31. It's not a whole new universe it's talking about.

Revelation and 2Peter are less clear, but if they're referring back to Isaiah, then I reckon they mean the same thing.

If it's all so unknowable (and it is), then why are you so sure about the incorporeality of it?

Because God is spirit and His heaven reflects that above all. Even more because this physical universe is finite. All things physical are finite. God has no limits; the spiritual realm has no limits.

Here's Paul saying he didn't know the answer to this question:

2Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't think I want to go into all of that, but it doesn't surprise me that it was all rather incomprehensible. After all, that is the reason that all passages such as Revelation 21 is presented in completely non-literal descriptions. I believe that no matter how marvelous, how incredible, how staggeringly spectacular one thinks heaven to be, it will be so much better than anything we earthly beings can put in words or even imagine.

All that aligns with Scripture and my own thoughts... though I wonder if we're defining all those words the same?

It depends on definitions. It isn't ψυχικός - 1Corinthians says not. I think a body must be corporeal, by definition. That word is just Latin for body:
View attachment 2765
Whether a spiritual body is made of material is open for debate. The Bible doesn't use the word material, it uses the word flesh. They aren't the same thing.

Here again, the real problem is, I think, in our inability to even imagine just how great it is all going to be. We have no relational experience to perceive something other than a physical, material, corporal being. But concerning flesh, Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". Some, as you seem to do, argue the "body" to be corporal even though not flesh or not physical. That sounds good, but what does corporal mean other than earthly physiological substance composed of atoms? Do we really think the heavenly, the spiritual, the supernatural existence in God's realm is composed of sub-atomic particles, atoms, chemicals, materials, held together by the basic forces of this world?

I don't. I know your thoughts about using such passages as Ecclesiastes 12:7 as theological truth, but I think it is significant when there it is simply stated that the body as such ceases to exist and it is the spirit which returns to God to receive what God promises.

I think that same notion is expressed by 1 Corinthians 15:

47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

God is Spirit. The heavenly is Spirit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I didn't say anything about hating my flesh. It is very valuable to me. But I will be quite happy to trade that very valuable asset for a very much more valuable asset of a non-corporal spiritual life in heaven.

I don't see any difference between the disdain you're showing toward "your flesh" and the theology you have concerning the current state of Jesus Christ in heaven.

You're not going to "ascend" to some "Non-corporeal spiritual life".

Non-corporeal is a reference to lacking "substance". Which is really crazy if you stop and think about it for a little while.

You may question that "substance" is.... but there is no context where there isn't "substance" here. You will be tangible even before the physical resurrection.

You're not going to be some "ghost" floating around.

Even Spirt is tangible (clear and definitive, real)

Don't get hung up in the descriptions of our existence as defined in the English language.