Kirk Cameron and annihilationism

[Jim]

You cannot separate the Resurrection from the Ascension and 2nd Coming. Its the same Jesus.

My top 10 reasons your view is unbiblical and mine is 100% biblical.

1-Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever

Are you saying that Jesus has always been a physical human being?

2- Jesus is the son of man forever

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels,,,,

Are you saying He is still a little lower that the angels?

3- The Incarnation was permanent, not temporal

Where do you read that?

4- Jesus is and will always be God manifest in the flesh

Again, where do you read that?

5- This same Jesus whom you have seen Ascend into heaven will come back the same way- " bodily", "physical"

That say not one thing about what He is now between the ascension and return.

6- After Jesus Ascended He appeared personally to Paul-

Paul heard Jesus, he did not see Jesus.

10- Jesus will be a literal King as the son of man during His Millennial Kingdom for a 1,000 years

I would have guessed that you would hold to the false doctrine of premillennialism. This is the last age; this is the millennium.

We shall see who is teachable and will allow the Bible to correct ones beliefs or will the pride and ego of man ideas remain unchanged.

Let God be true and every man found to be a liar.

That would make both you and Jesus liars. More to the point that statement was in response to the false rhetorical question,

Thats my motto and I will defend the Resurrection, the Gospel, Deity of Christ ( these all go together like a hand in a glove )and expose the doctrinal beliefs that oppose them since this is a salvific issue. This non nonnegotiable. These are essentials of the faith and cannot be compromised.

That "glove" makes no statement about Jesus being a physical man in heaven.

@civic, you have interjected so much of your own personal likes, wishes and beliefs running counter to God's word and it is not good at all.

 

[civic]

Are you saying that Jesus has always been a physical human being?

Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels,,,,

Are you saying He is still a little lower that the angels?

Where do you read that?


Again, where do you read that?

That say not one thing about what He is now between the ascension and return.

Paul heard Jesus, he did not see Jesus.


I would have guessed that you would hold to the false doctrine of premillennialism. This is the last age; this is the millennium.

That would make both you and Jesus liars. More to the point that statement was in response to the false rhetorical question,

That "glove" makes no statement about Jesus being a physical man in heaven.

@civic, you have interjected so much of your own personal likes, wishes and beliefs running counter to God's word and it is not good at all.

Wrong in my followings posts 117-118 I give the biblical and exegetical defense that’s irrefutable.

 

[Jim]

Wrong in my followings posts 117-118 I give the biblical and exegetical defense that’s irrefutable.

What do you mean wrong? I asked you some questions. But if you can't answer them, I understand.

 

[civic]

What do you mean wrong? I asked you some questions. But if you can't answer them, I understand.

Answered as to Jesus permanent humanity in posts 117-118

 

[civic]

I would have guessed that you would hold to the false doctrine of premillennialism. This is the last age; this is the millennium.

Projecting again I see .

So we living in a time of peace ?
No wars ?
The wolf and lamb lay together ?
Satan is bound ?
No evil exists now ?
Jesus is reigning in Jerusalem ?
The saints have already been resurrected?
Where is Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Moses , David, Elijah, Elisha , Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the rest of the saints ?

Yikes

 

[Jim]

Projecting again I see .

So we living in a time of peace ?
No wars ?
The wolf and lamb lay together ?
Satan is bound ?
No evil exists now ?
Jesus is reigning in Jerusalem ?
The saints have already been resurrected?
Where is Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Moses , David, Elijah, Elisha , Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the rest of the saints ?

Yikes

Projecting again I see. Where do you get all of that about the millennium? Answer - nowhere.

 

[Jim]

Answered as to Jesus permanent humanity in posts 117-118

So then since in being human, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:7), and you think that Jesus, being still a human, is still a little lower than the angels.

 

[civic]

Projecting again I see. Where do you get all of that about the millennium? Answer - nowhere.

several places in both testaments.

The Bible tells us that when Christ returns to the earth He will establish Himself as king in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:32–33). The unconditional covenants demand a literal, physical return of Christ to establish the kingdom. The Abrahamic covenant promised Israel a land, a posterity and ruler, and a spiritual blessing (Genesis 12:1–3). The Palestinian covenant promised Israel a restoration to the land and occupation of the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). The Davidic covenant promised Israel a king from David’s line who would rule forever—giving the nation rest from all their enemies (2 Samuel 7:10–13).

At the second coming, these covenants will be fulfilled as Israel is re-gathered from the nations (Matthew 24:31), converted (Zechariah 12:10–14), and restored to the land under the rule of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Bible speaks of the conditions during the millennium as a perfect environment physically and spiritually. It will be a time of peace (Micah 4:2–4; Isaiah 32:17–18), joy (Isaiah 61:7, 10), and comfort (Isaiah 40:1–2). The Bible also tells us that only believers will enter the millennial kingdom. Because of this, it will be a time of obedience (Jeremiah 31:33), holiness (Isaiah 35:8), truth (Isaiah 65:16), and the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9; Habakkuk 2:14). Christ will rule as king (Isaiah 9:3–7; 11:1–10). Nobles and governors will also rule (Isaiah 32:1; Matthew 19:28), and Jerusalem will be the political center of the world (Zechariah 8:3). Isaiah 11:6 “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together.”got?

Revelation 20:2-7 gives the precise time period of the millennial kingdom. There are countless other passages that point to a literal reign of the Messiah on the earth. The fulfillment of many of God’s covenants and promises rests on a literal, physical, future kingdom. There is no solid basis for denying the literal interpretation of the millennial kingdom and its duration being 1,000 years.

next fallacy....................

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

So then since in being human, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:7), and you think that Jesus, being still a human, is still a little lower than the angels.

that was only during His earthly ministry.

btw- this is another JW argument- you are making the same arguments using the same out of context verses as the jehovah witnesses to deny Jesus humanity.

your barrage of unbiblical questions don't change the facts Jesus is forever both God and man, human and Divine.

Christology 101...............

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

that was only during His earthly ministry.

That is a condition of being human. You claim Jesus is human. Therefore, Jesus must still be a little less than the angels.

 

[Jim]

several places in both testaments.

The Bible tells us that when Christ returns to the earth He will establish Himself as king in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:32–33). The unconditional covenants demand a literal, physical return of Christ to establish the kingdom. The Abrahamic covenant promised Israel a land, a posterity and ruler, and a spiritual blessing (Genesis 12:1–3). The Palestinian covenant promised Israel a restoration to the land and occupation of the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). The Davidic covenant promised Israel a king from David’s line who would rule forever—giving the nation rest from all their enemies (2 Samuel 7:10–13).

At the second coming, these covenants will be fulfilled as Israel is re-gathered from the nations (Matthew 24:31), converted (Zechariah 12:10–14), and restored to the land under the rule of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Bible speaks of the conditions during the millennium as a perfect environment physically and spiritually. It will be a time of peace (Micah 4:2–4; Isaiah 32:17–18), joy (Isaiah 61:7, 10), and comfort (Isaiah 40:1–2). The Bible also tells us that only believers will enter the millennial kingdom. Because of this, it will be a time of obedience (Jeremiah 31:33), holiness (Isaiah 35:8), truth (Isaiah 65:16), and the knowledge of God (Isaiah 11:9; Habakkuk 2:14). Christ will rule as king (Isaiah 9:3–7; 11:1–10). Nobles and governors will also rule (Isaiah 32:1; Matthew 19:28), and Jerusalem will be the political center of the world (Zechariah 8:3). Isaiah 11:6 “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together.”got?

Revelation 20:2-7 gives the precise time period of the millennial kingdom. There are countless other passages that point to a literal reign of the Messiah on the earth. The fulfillment of many of God’s covenants and promises rests on a literal, physical, future kingdom. There is no solid basis for denying the literal interpretation of the millennial kingdom and its duration being 1,000 years.

next fallacy....................

hope this helps !!!

Sorry. but I simply cannot accept the premillennial view of the coming age. I think it derives from a really bad interpretation of Revelation 20, and particularly verse 4.

Very briefly, too many interpret verse 4 to say that John "he souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and [the souls of] those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands." That implies that both groups are souls. But that is not what is written there. The "those" of the second group is not the souls but rather living beings.

I will just leave it at that. If you are interested, there are books written around that correct reading of verse 4, rejecting the fallacy of any version of premillennialism.

 

[Jim]

You cannot separate the Resurrection from the Ascension and 2nd Coming. Its the same Jesus.

Of course you can separate them. That each happen as separate and distinct events at different times. Yes, it is the same Jesus. But it is also the same Jesus that John describes in John 1 as the Word. And clearly, the Word was not a human being. The Word, Jesus, became a human being taking on the flesh and blood of mankind.

 

[civic]

That is a condition of being human. You claim Jesus is human. Therefore, Jesus must still be a little less than the angels.

nope He had a specific mission of Redemption to accomplish and was in complete obedience to do the Fathers will.

Hebrews 2:7 parallels Philippians 2:1-11- Its about the humility, the condescension of the Son. The phrase also points to the order of creation, where angels are spiritual beings with a higher status than humans in terms of power and presence in the heavenly realm. However, Jesus' temporary lower status was necessary for His mission of salvation.

I'll bet you are Kenosis too- Jesus was not fully God, equal with the Father during His earthly ministry and gave up His divinity.

 

[civic]

Of course you can separate them. That each happen as separate and distinct events at different times. Yes, it is the same Jesus. But it is also the same Jesus that John describes in John 1 as the Word. And clearly, the Word was not a human being. The Word, Jesus, became a human being taking on the flesh and blood of mankind.

nope you have a heterodox view of Jesus humanity which is the exact same beliefs as the JW's. You like them are denying the gospel, the resurrection, humanity of Jesus who remains human as the one Mediator between God and man. the MAN Christ Jesus- not the spirit( JW teaching) christ jesus- but the MAN.

I never said Jesus was human before the Incarnation you made that up. I've debated JW's on this for over 4 decades and others who believe like them and nort once have I ever verbally said or implied Jesus was human before the Incarnation or even written such NONSENSE.

Quote me................

next fallacy

 

[Jim]

I never said Jesus was human before the Incarnation you made that up.

You said Jesus was the same past, present and future.

 

[Jim]

I'll bet you are Kenosis too- Jesus was not fully God, equal with the Father during His earthly ministry and gave up His divinity.

I have no idea what Kenosis is. Jesus was fully divine and fully human. God is one in the three beings, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But I do know what premillennialism is and it is false.

 

[civic]

You said Jesus was the same past, present and future.

no I did not you misquoted me and the bible- you don't understand the verse.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Lets see if you can follow.

This was written after His Ascension.

Yesterday means the day before
Today means right now, in the here and now
Forever means never ends beyond today.

Jesus was a man yesterday
Jesus is a man today
Jesus remains a man forever- throughout eternity.

next fallacy...................

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

no I did not you misquoted me and the bible- you don't understand the verse.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Lets see if you can follow.

This was written after His Ascension.

Yesterday means the day before
Today means right now, in the here and now
Forever means never ends beyond today.

Jesus was a man yesterday
Jesus is a man today
Jesus remains a man forever- throughout eternity.

next fallacy...................

hope this helps !!!

That is not a very good view of the one sitting at the right hand of God. But that is who you are.

 

[civic]

That is not a very good view of the one sitting at the right hand of God. But that is who you are.

Its biblical, literal meaning.

How can you sit on a throne as a spirit ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

@ Jim,

How do spirits sit? If Jesus is a spirit... I wonder about this... We know the Holy Spirit just lights where it will but this is confusing to me