FreeInChrist
Active Member
Great minds... I was writing mine and posting then I saw yours.
Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
- Thread starter civic
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civic
Active Member
I cannot believe this has to be defended with "christians" and that they oppose the plain truth taught by Jesus and the Apostles.
I guess some think we will be invisible spirits living in an invisible place for eternity.
the new heavens and new earth will be invisible
the new Jerusalem will be invisible
the river of life invisible
the tree of life invisible
Jesus invisible
Throne invisible
fruit invisible
water invisible
light invisible
streets invisible
walls invisible
bodies invisible
see how ridiculous this gets.
"If the plain sense of the text makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it become nonsense," is a principle of biblical interpretation (hermeneutics), urging readers to first understand the literal, ordinary meaning of scripture
Some make complete nonsense out of the bible.
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Does God have a right hand? Is He sitting on a throne? If God is spirit, which direction is at His right?
Sitting at the right hand of God has nothing to do with actually sitting. Nor does it have anything to do with an actual thrown. Nothing outside of this physical universe is physical.
And I can't believe that Christians think heaven is a physical existence of any sort.
civic
Active Member
"If the plain sense of the text makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it become nonsense," is a principle of biblical interpretation (hermeneutics), urging readers to first understand the literal, ordinary meaning of scripture
FreeInChrist
Active Member
FreeInChrist
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Yeah. They seem to think it is okay to just ignore the physical resurrection of Christ. Besides... "spiritual" isn't intangible. << sarcasm
Jesus appealed to the "new birth" as being like the wind. Wind is tangible. Wind has substance. There is no context where "wind" becomes visible without being mixed with a "solid" in the eyes of men.....
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
There is so much here. So many fundamental issues revolving around methods and rudimentary constructs.
Just how does anyone discern without a tangible construct that progresses? Precept upon Precept.
Even thought itself has physical traits or how do they exist in an state for review?
You're smart. I'll listen if you'll creates some sense of a method or construct you're using to discern your existence. If you're just going to "make this up as you go".... then I'll leave you alone.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Isa 28:13 And the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
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John 4:24 God is spirit.....
From Albert Barnes:
God is A spirit - This is the second reason why men should worship him in spirit and in truth. By this is meant that God is without a body; that he is not material or composed of parts; that he is invisible, in every place, pure and holy. This is one of the first truths of religion, and one of the sublimest ever presented to the mind of man. Almost all nations have had some idea of God as gross or material, but the Bible declares that he is a pure spirit. As he is such a spirit, he dwells not in temples made with hands Act_7:48, neither is worshipped with men’s hands as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things, Act_17:25. A pure, a holy, a spiritual worship, therefore, is such as he seeks - the offering of the soul rather than the formal offering of the body - the homage of the heart rather than that of the lips.
From Adam Clark:
God is a Spirit - This is one of the first, the greatest, the most sublime, and necessary truths in the compass of nature! There is a God, the cause of all things - the fountain of all perfection - without parts or dimensions, for he is Eternal - filling the heavens and the earth - pervading, governing, and upholding all things: for he is an infinite Spirit! This God can be pleased only with that which resembles himself: therefore he must hate sin and sinfulness; and can delight in those only who are made partakers of his own Divine nature. As all creatures were made by him, so all owe him obedience and reverence; but, to be acceptable to this infinite Spirit, the worship must be of a spiritual nature - must spring from the heart, through the influence of the Holy Ghost: and it must be in Truth, not only in sincerity, but performed according to that Divine revelation which he has given men of himself. A man worships God in spirit, when, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, he brings all his affections, appetites, and desires to the throne of God; and he worships him in truth, when every purpose and passion of his heart, and when every act of his religious worship, is guided and regulated by the word of God. “The enlightened part of mankind,” says Abu’l Fazel, “knows that true righteousness is an upright heart; and believe that God can only be worshipped in holiness of Spirit.” Ayeen Akbery, vol. iii. p. 254.
“Of all worshippers,” says Creeshna, “I respect him as the most devout, who hath faith in me, and who serveth me with a soul possessed of my spirit.” Geeta, p. 68.
From John Gill:
God is a spirit,.... Or "the Spirit is God"; a divine person, possessed of all divine perfections, as appears from his names, works, and worship ascribed unto him; See Gill on Joh_4:23; though the Arabic and Persic versions, and others, read as we do, "God is a spirit"; that is, God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost: for taking the words in this light, not one of the persons is to be understood exclusive of the other; for this description, or definition, agrees with each of them, and they are all the object of worship, and to be worshipped in a true and spiritual manner. God is a spirit, and not a body, or a corporeal substance: the nature and essence of God is like a spirit, simple and uncompounded, not made up of parts; nor is it divisible; nor does it admit of any change and alteration. God, as a spirit, is immaterial, immortal, invisible, and an intelligent, willing, and active being; but differs from other spirits, in that he is not created, but an immense and infinite spirit, and an eternal one, which has neither beginning nor end: he is therefore a spirit by way of eminency, as well as effectively, he being the author and former of all spirits: whatever excellence is in them, must be ascribed to God in the highest manner; and whatever is imperfect in them, must be removed from him:
It is not the body of man that is going to take upon themselves immortality; it is the spirit of man that will be immortal (Eccl 12:7).
But Jesus becoming flesh and blood did alter his fundamental make up of spirit versus corporal.
But the thought itself never changes anything. You can think whatever you like about the nature of heaven. But that changes nothing about the nature of heaven.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Jim, good morning.
I think for this discussion we need to leave God out of the talk because only an idiot would think that God has a body. He is spirit, and what His spirit looks like was have no way to know .
If we defer to the book of Enoch we are told that Enoch does not provide a detailed description of God's appearance, but he mentions seeing God's face and describes God's throne as being surrounded by fire and glory. In 1 Enoch, it is noted that no human can look directly at God due to His splendor and glory.
But we can discuss Jesus because when He walked the earth He had a real body that I believe functioned just like ours.... with a few perks like waling on water, bringing people back from the dead, and feeding multitude.
I was always told, therefore believed that Jesus ascended to heaven in a physical body, and he continues to have a glorified body there. And that His resurrection involved the same physical body that died.
Mary saw Him when she was clinging to his feet... but only after she first did not recognize Him, but did recognize His voice.
John
20:13 And they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
20:14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.
Why do you think she did not recognize Him?
20:15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
He speaks and she still does not know Him. Possibly her tears were blurring her vision?
20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
It was His voice she recognized
20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
20:18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.
This is all we are told in John and for me I see that something had changed in Jesus' physical appearance for Mary to not recognize Him on sight.
I see that she ran ahead to tell them Jesus would be coming..... but why the delay in his coming, if only for a brief moment or two because he could have walked with her... or being a man could have gotten there first.... ( women understand this) but He had said he was in the process of ascending to the Father...
Vs 17
but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
For me this entire telling says that Jesus was in the process of actually transitioning and when he came back to earth to the men, he was in his glorified body able to walk through closed doors, but was physical enough that Thomas could touch him.....
There are many who will say He appeared to the disciples that very same day. Maybe so. It is just that he told Mary he was ascending and be the same day or not for His appearance to them is of little matter for He was in a body and with them for 40 some days....
What happened after those 40 days..... Acts is clear.
Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
The disciples literally watched Him rise into heaven.
Acts 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Then these two who are assume to be angels explained what it meant:
Acts 1:11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
So Jesus: Ascended bodily~Went into heaven~ and Will return the same way
We, you and I are told that we WILL receive "Glorified Bodies"
We receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection, which occurs at the second coming of Christ, not immediately upon death. This means there is a waiting period until that future event when the dead in Christ will rise and be transformed into their eternal bodies.
At our death ( believers) our Spirits go back to God who gave them!!!!!
“We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.”
— 1 Corinthians 15:51–52
That verse tells us exactly when glorified bodies are received:
At the last trumpet, At the resurrection, When Christ returns
Not at death. Not immediately when we go to heaven. But at the resurrection.
Paul says it again even more plainly:
“Our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body.”
I do not know, nor can I guess what the new, glorified body is or even why it is needed. I do not care, honestly... but I am comfortable knowing this is a promise to us, and someday, century, or eon it will happen.
I think for this discussion we need to leave God out of the talk because only an idiot would think that God has a body. He is spirit, and what His spirit looks like was have no way to know .
If we defer to the book of Enoch we are told that Enoch does not provide a detailed description of God's appearance, but he mentions seeing God's face and describes God's throne as being surrounded by fire and glory. In 1 Enoch, it is noted that no human can look directly at God due to His splendor and glory.
But we can discuss Jesus because when He walked the earth He had a real body that I believe functioned just like ours.... with a few perks like waling on water, bringing people back from the dead, and feeding multitude.
I was always told, therefore believed that Jesus ascended to heaven in a physical body, and he continues to have a glorified body there. And that His resurrection involved the same physical body that died.
Mary saw Him when she was clinging to his feet... but only after she first did not recognize Him, but did recognize His voice.
John
20:13 And they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
20:14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus.
Why do you think she did not recognize Him?
20:15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Supposing Him to be the gardener, she said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
He speaks and she still does not know Him. Possibly her tears were blurring her vision?
20:16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
It was His voice she recognized
20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
20:18 Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and that He had said these things to her.
This is all we are told in John and for me I see that something had changed in Jesus' physical appearance for Mary to not recognize Him on sight.
I see that she ran ahead to tell them Jesus would be coming..... but why the delay in his coming, if only for a brief moment or two because he could have walked with her... or being a man could have gotten there first.... ( women understand this) but He had said he was in the process of ascending to the Father...
Vs 17
but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
For me this entire telling says that Jesus was in the process of actually transitioning and when he came back to earth to the men, he was in his glorified body able to walk through closed doors, but was physical enough that Thomas could touch him.....
There are many who will say He appeared to the disciples that very same day. Maybe so. It is just that he told Mary he was ascending and be the same day or not for His appearance to them is of little matter for He was in a body and with them for 40 some days....
What happened after those 40 days..... Acts is clear.
Acts 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
The disciples literally watched Him rise into heaven.
Acts 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Then these two who are assume to be angels explained what it meant:
Acts 1:11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
So Jesus: Ascended bodily~Went into heaven~ and Will return the same way
We, you and I are told that we WILL receive "Glorified Bodies"
We receive our glorified bodies at the resurrection, which occurs at the second coming of Christ, not immediately upon death. This means there is a waiting period until that future event when the dead in Christ will rise and be transformed into their eternal bodies.
At our death ( believers) our Spirits go back to God who gave them!!!!!
“We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we will be changed.”
— 1 Corinthians 15:51–52
That verse tells us exactly when glorified bodies are received:
At the last trumpet, At the resurrection, When Christ returns
Not at death. Not immediately when we go to heaven. But at the resurrection.
Paul says it again even more plainly:
“Our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body.”
I do not know, nor can I guess what the new, glorified body is or even why it is needed. I do not care, honestly... but I am comfortable knowing this is a promise to us, and someday, century, or eon it will happen.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Corruption putting on incorruption requires corruption to be changed.
Becoming flesh was about experience but it didn't change the character of Christ. As Trinitarians, we preach the fundamental nature of the Holy Trinity is immutable. No need to change.
The Incarnation didn't change the character of God. Just the state. Our God can do anything.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
civic
Active Member
The only thing I would change in your post/comment is the Father does not have a body, He is spirit/God. God the Son does have a body and God the Holy Spirit does not have a body.
civic
Active Member
you make Gods word a lie and Job a false prophet.
Job 19:26- And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Isaiah too
Isaiah 26:19
Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust! For your dew is like the dew of the morning, and the earth will bring forth her dead.
Paul too
2 Corinthians 5:1-4
For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. / For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, / because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked
Jesus too
Luke 20:37-38
Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ / He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
True except my opening sentence says it I thought
"I think for this discussion we need to leave God out of the talk because only an idiot would think that God has a body.
Anyway We do not know for sure...... It is a given about God.... even the First Book of Enoch talked of God in a similar manner as what Moses talked of and the burning bush.
Holy Spirit? Certainly not when he is in people, but has been seen as a dove, and maybe something else not recorded. In heaven... likely not....
Anyway , thanks for your thoughts.....It ia an interesting subject
