Justice "served" in the Atonement?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Saying free will is always synergistic is Calvin based

While it may be synergistic it also
May not be

Just don’t tell them that they will
Come at you with all the force of their theology then claim it’s from God

 

[Dizerner]

I've stood up to Calvinists well over 10 years, I will tell them synergism is true all day and all night.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The one distinctive aspect of Calvinism is the denial of Free Will.

Else, I don't think there is legitimate reason to accuse a person of it.

Not entirely true. Both Arminians and Calvinists (Protestants) basically share the same theological perspective relative to the work of God in humanity. They just tend to argue over silly things that don't really matter at times. I rejected both a long time ago. I believe I've told you this before. It is not a choice between the "two". Such is a false dichotomy that most every modern Christian have swallowed. The same exists relative to Protestants and Catholics.

There is an underlying view point that there is this authoritive choice that God has set before us to make....

Things are so flawed at so many fundamental levels, we often only scratch the surface of where things actually are at the moment.

Every man is right in their own eyes. I'll even include myself in that. However, I refuse to let another person make a decision for me. If I'm wrong, I'll own it. I'll put forth the effort to know it as much as I can or at least more than most others.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I've stood up to Calvinists well over 10 years, I will tell them synergism is true all day and all night.

Another example of a flawed methodology. Salvation is BOTH Monergistic and Synergistic.

Stop blindly "buying" into all these false narratives that exist. That is what Satan desires. He loves it when he plants a seed and everyone starts arguing over the "plant" that grew from it actually means.

See the seeds for what they are. Distractions.

 

[civic]

Another example of a flawed methodology. Salvation is BOTH Monergistic and Synergistic.

Stop blindly "buying" into all these false narratives that exists. That is what Satan desires. He loves it when he plants a seed and everyone starts arguing over the "plant" that grew from it actually means.

See the seeds for what they are. Distractions.

Agreed it’s both monergistic God saves, synergistic- the one who believes.

 

[Dizerner]

Another example of a flawed methodology. Salvation is BOTH Monergistic and Synergistic.

That's a logical contradiction, those are a strict dichotomy, logic dictates it's either one or the other.

There is no such thing as square circles.

 

[Dizerner]

It is not a choice between the "two". Such is a false dichotomy that most every modern Christian have swallowed.

Nobody says it's only one or the other, complete straw man.

Pelagianism has ALWAYS been a third option.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's a logical contradiction, those are a strict dichotomy, logic dictates it's either one or the other.

There is no such thing as square circles.

Who created this "rule" you're applying? Please share. You don't own logic.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nobody says it's only one or the other, complete straw man.

Pelagianism has ALWAYS been a third option.

Geesh.... In context to what I said.... "Calvinism vs Arminianism".... Pay attention.

 

[Dizerner]

Who created this "rule" you're applying? Please share. You don't own logic.

If you throw away logic you can no longer reason about things.

You could just say "Blue sleeps fast on the Monday painful west in butter angels of angled dimes that never but always do and don't."

If you throw away logic you don't even have to make any sense whatsoever anymore.

Might explain some things about your posts, but...

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you throw away logic you can no longer reason about things.

You could just say "Blue sleeps fast on the Monday painful west in butter angels of angled dimes that never but always do and don't."

If you throw away logic you don't even have to make any sense whatsoever anymore.

Might explain some things about your posts, but...

I don't see an answer. I'm not ignoring logic or reason. It is a "false dichotomy" to force a choice between two choices when there are more possible choices. Which can possibly include BOTH.

This is a basic construct of a reasoned position.

Now. Again. What rule requires that a choice be made between any and every "two things".

Still waiting.

 

[Studyman]

God over and over again bypasses the law and shows mercy, grace, forgiveness, not retribution.

It is a popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religious system, that God and His Christ disobeyed or "Bypassed" God's Law. But when a person turns away from the "course of this world" and considers what is actually written in Scriptures, it becomes clear that God didn't "bypass" His Own Laws, just so men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, can "work iniquity", or as Jeremiah defines it, "walk after the imagination of his own heart" and "No evil shall come upon you".

All man has sinned, and all men will die. And if the Christ doesn't return and raise them from the dead, as Prophesied, they will remain dead. God is not being "Unlawful", or as you preach, "Bypassing His Own Law" when HE raises a sinner, who died as per God's Law, (The soul that sins shall die) from this death.

It's not about retribution or revenge that all men die. It's important to "hear" what is actually written in Scriptures.

Ez. 18: 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; (Raised from the dead) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

For there is no respecter of persons with God.

This is the case with Israel over and over again and God listening to His prophets interceding on their behalf and not wiping them out.

He wiped out thousands Civic. And those HE didn't wipe out, "Died". Where are they now? And if God's Doesn't raise them from the Dead, through His Christ, they will remain dead. How is that an example of God "Bypassing His Own Laws"? Now there are "many" who died in Hope of a resurrection unto Life. But there will also be "Many" who professed to know God, who will be raised to an eternal death.

God did the same with David who under the law was a murderer- an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth- He under the law should of been stoned. But God declares the LOrd has put away your sin, you shall not die.

His son died. He lost His kingdom, he was humiliated before all Israel. And David is dead and buried to this day, as Peter tells those who would believe him. But David, like all men according to God's Law, will be raised and judged. David "turned himself", and according to God's Law, if a man "repents from the heart, as David did, he will be raised "unto the resurrection of life;"

God bypasses retribution/justice with David.

According to your voice, or the voice in the garden we were placed in that you adopted, perhaps this is taught. And it remains to be seen if David will live again or not. You have not seen him, heard from him, and there is nothing in Scriptures that promotes the teaching that David is not just as Dead now, as he was when Peter spoke of him in Acts.

We are warned of this very thing Civic. I really wish you would stop promoting these other voices.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

And yet the law states parents shall not be put to death for their children and vice versa. Deuteronomy 24:16. Once again God bypasses the law and does as He pleases.

You are free to judge God in this manner, I will not, based on what is actually written in Scriptures.

God is not bound by the law.

Your god is not bound by his own Laws. In your adopted religion, God placed "heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but He Himself will not move them with one of their fingers".

And the cross is not about retribution or justice or the law. Its all about Gods love, mercy, grace and forgiveness.

God's Love IS HIS LAW, at least this is what the Holy Scriptures actually teach.

1 John 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Like Jeremiah warned, "Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD."

Don't listen to all the other voices in the garden God placed us in Civic, listen to the Jesus "of the bible".

 

[Dizerner]

God never bypassed his Law.

Or the Cross would not even be necessarily.

Look at how earnestly God pleaded with himself if there be any other way.


All be warned that people like civic here are preaching a different Jesus, a different Gospel and a different Cross.

A God who does not uphold his own holiness, a God who does not judge all sin.

A God who does not need an atonement, who does not need a Cross.

The Blood alone saves us.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God never bypassed his Law.

Or the Cross would not even be necessarily.

Look at how earnestly God pleaded with himself if there be any other way.

No one is bypassing the law. Christ died under the law. Death frees.

Death had dominion over Christ because of us. You're looking at this entirely wrong. You see value in your sin. You see a penalty for sin that doesn't establish righteousness.

God found fault in the old covenant because the covenant itself was weak through the flesh of Adam. God had long ago declared that flesh would never inherit the Kingdom of God.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Christ died in the flesh. God tasting death for every man.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

It is the giving of life in Christ Jesus (true value/merit) that is what establishes justification of ownership over us.

The "will" of God is literally written in death.

I'll be glad to discuss this further with you but you have a fundamental flaw in how you view the Atonement and why God chose what He chose to do.

This is all about the freedom of will tied to the very character of our souls.

If you would "humor me" for a moment....

1. Is God proud?
2. Should God be proud of His accomplishments?

I'd like for you to actually answer this if you.....

I believe if you honestly answer this... you might just understand how different we are in comparison to Him. The goal to make man "in His own Image" is a monumental task. The task of of a "lifetime". To create a independent mind that will embrace you for what you actually are. To many people, love is nothing more than a word they spend their lives failing to grasp. At its very core love involves the purity of will and the sincerity of a deep emotional connection to a relationship where two willing agree. A hope against hope.

Such is worth the means that God was willing to pay.

To love, we must be loved!

 

[Dizerner]

No one is bypassing the law. Christ died under the law.

Such is worth the means that God was willing to pay.

This much I could agree with.

You already know I firmly believe you are deception.

You don't want to listen—you want to preach your deception.

Not interested.

For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted--
you may well put up with it! (2 Cor. 11:4 NKJ)

 

[praise_yeshua]

This much I could agree with.

You already know I firmly believe you are deception.

You don't want to listen—you want to preach your deception.

Not interested.

For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted--
you may well put up with it! (2 Cor. 11:4 NKJ)

Fair enough.

Feel free to correct me when you see it. I'll do the same. I look forward to the day when God gathers all His waring children together under His wing....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I'm going to start to unravel this verse of Scripture that is often misunderstood.

I'm going to start by asking a question about Adam and Eve.

Adam had a choice presented him after Eve had already disobeyed both God and her husband by eating of the fruit of the tree. Adam eat of the same fruit that Eve had already eaten from.....

It is often rightfully recognized that Adam had a choice of eating the fruit or not eating the fruit. However, what is not often noticed/understood is that Eve had already sinned before Adam ate of the fruit.

So my question for anyone is......

Would Adam have been right to had abandoned Eve and left her to be judged alone?

Adam had this choice to make. How you view this choice is very important in the context of how you view justice. Most of you actually believe that Adam would have been justified in abandoning Eve to her deception/justice.

So what is your answer?

 

[Studyman]

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I'm going to start to unravel this verse of Scripture that is often misunderstood.

I'm going to start by asking a question about Adam and Eve.

Adam had a choice presented him after Eve had already disobeyed both God and her husband by eating of the fruit of the tree. Adam eat of the same fruit that Eve had already eaten from.....

It is often rightfully recognized that Adam had a choice of eating the fruit or not eating the fruit. However, what is not often noticed/understood is that Eve had already sinned before Adam ate of the fruit.

So my question for anyone is......

Would Adam have been right to had abandoned Eve and left her to be judged alone?

Adam had this choice to make. How you view this choice is very important in the context of how you view justice. Most of you actually believe that Adam would have been justified in abandoning Eve to her deception/justice.

So what is your answer?

It seems prudent to consider a couple of things. Adam was in the garden, tending it and the animals before Eve was even created. Adam was created from the dirt, Eve was created from Adam. It is written, and rightly so, that the Woman is the weaker vessel of the two. God told Adam about the tree. Eve, the weaker vessel, learned about the tree from Adam.

The serpent went after the weaker vessel, the Woman God gave to Adam, to get at Adam. Adam represents Christ, the husband, the Head of the Woman, Eve represents His Bride, a weaker vessel.

Is. 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

The first Adam dropped his guard around the weaker vessel, and through her, she caused them both to fall. Jesus didn't succumb or drop His Guard around the Weaker Vessel. He was the "Head" of the Woman, like Adam should have been.

Jesus didn't hearken to the desires or traditions of the Woman God gave to Him, AKA, the Jews or Israel even though the serpent tried for 20 years, before attacking Jesus' head on. He knew God was able to raise "HER" from the dead. And HE knew the importance of placing nothing before His Faithfulness to God, not even the church/bride/ woman. Had Adam stayed faithful to God, like the second Adam, He could have offered Himself as a sacrifice for Eve's sin. He could have advocated between God and Eve to show mercy. He could have pleaded for her, like Jesus did for the Woman God gave to Him.

You have somehow been deceived into believing that Adam staying Faithful to God, somehow abandoned Eve. Or the Husband staying obedient to God is somehow abandoning his wife who is weaker and as a result sins.

You are promoting that Adam was somehow a hero, by joining his wife in a sin against God.

Thankfully, the second Adam stayed faithful to God, even when His Wife was unfaithful, even when she conspired to Kill Him.

And for this Love, she can be granted life, if she repents.

So for these reasons and many other Inspired Words of God, I believe God was right to rebuke and punish Adam for joining with his wife in a Sin against God. In this way, Adam abandoned his wife.