Again, hath blinded. Past tense. It's a direct quote from Isiah 6. It is fulfilled prophecy that deals soley with judgement upon Israel. There is no reason to apply this text universally to try to bolster another Provisionist presupposition
John 3:16 The Most Abused Passage by Free-Willers
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Totally irrelevant
Why did he blind them to prevent them from seeing if they were born blind as your theology teaches
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief?
And still provide no answer
what happens if he does not harden and blind?
John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
you ignore it
Do you imagine all but the Jews are born in total inability
Can you actually address the point ?
Lol, audience and historical are irrelevant? WOW
Why did He blind who? Who is He blinding?
It is irrelevant to the point
Your theology teaches all men even Jews are born blind and unable to believe unless regenerated
So why does God blind men so that they will not believe
According to your theology, they cannot believe
You are not answering the question
No, actually it not.
I answered the question. Your simply ripping it out of its historical context.
Sorry you are in denial
You failed to deal with the fact God had to blind and harden men to prevent belief
as was stated
sorry, but you clearly failed to answer a number of questions
And you have failed to show we choose to become elect.
You have failed ro show God chose you because you chose Him
Two more Provisionist presuppositions
civic
Well-known member
do you have an old testament ?
do you believe the OT ?
Was God lying ?
Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live,
Joshua 24- And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Prov 1:29- For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Audience and context? Who is the "you"?
2 Thessalonians 2:13
Thessalonians 1:4
God does the choosing
Sorry but you remain in denial
God chooses those in Christ
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
to be holy and blameless
not to be in Christ
not to be unconditionally saved
You read that into the text
One gets in Christ when they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
you offer only bald denial
That's all I have to offer. The claim is yours and you have the burden of proof.
So I deny the Bible teaches God chose is because we chose Him or that we choose to become elect.
As I see it has been clearly proven
God chooses those in Christ
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
to be holy and blameless
not to be in Christ
not to be unconditionally saved
You read that into the text
One gets in Christ when they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
sealed in Christ after believing
Here is what is read into the text. We choose to be in Him, we choose to be elect or God chose us because we chose Him. Three things never mentioned or hinted at. It does, however, teach it is God who chose the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Sorry you failed to address fact 1 and fact 2DDRESS
As I see it has been clearly proven
1) God chooses those in Christ
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
to be holy and blameless
not to be in Christ
not to be unconditionally saved
You read that into the text
2) One gets in Christ when they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
sealed in Christ after believing
until you do, you have not dealt with the argument
Still nothing about God choosing those who choose Him. Nothing about choosing to become elect.
What is as clear as a bell is it is God who does the choosing. He is active and we are passive.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
Still no address of fact 1 and fact 2
1) God chooses those in Christ
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
to be holy and blameless
not to be in Christ
not to be unconditionally saved
You read that into the text
2) One gets in Christ when they believe
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
sealed in Christ after believing
until you do, you have not dealt with the argument
as for 2th 2:13 what part of belief in the truth did you fail to note
God chose to save gentiles through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth
Those who believe are saved those who do not believe are not
nothing there about unconditional election
1 Thessalonians 1:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
nothing there about unconditional election either
Here is what you twist
God chooses, elects to present holy and blameless those in Christ
Those who believe, trust in Christ are sealed in him by the holy Spirit
Neither of the Thessalonian passages support you
Behold
Well-known member
God requires faith as our part so that He will deliver the promise that is His word.
If God caused faith, then He would not require it., as Why would He need us to believe,....why to require faith, if He causes it?
So, that is just common sense, that the Calvinist has no capacity to comprehend, and that is because Calvinism denies common sense, logic, and truth, and blinds the mind, as that is always the "bewitching" power regarding a "doctrine of devils".
Also.... Unbelievers , never born again, went to hell today.
If God sent them to Hell, for not BELIEVING, and Its God who wont let them believe, then God would not be just, honest, or LOVE.
No we believe what we believe because scripture shows man capable of belief
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven
Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
Satan becomes redundant in your theology
John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
The point is it is God who does the choosing.
Nowhere do we read God chose us because you chose Him.
We choose to elect ourselves. Nowhere written on the pages of scripture.
You still have not explained how this choice is made from the foundation of the world but does not involve foreknowledge. You have managed to dodge that problem with your understanding.
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