I think you are missing the fact of God starting the prompting on the person's soul and then they believe. It's not salvation from man.. but God. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is led by Christ.
John 1 does not support Calvinism
- Thread starter civic
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I think you are missing the fact of God starting the prompting on the person's soul and then they believe. It's not salvation from man.. but God. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is led by Christ.
"started the prompting" ? What's that mean?
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Faith is always on the purely human side of the equation. Jesus said to the woman healed from the blood disease “Your faith has made you whole!” It is always a “whoever believes” scenario, never a “whoever God gives faith to and causes them to believe” scenario.
Your defense for the argument that faith is given to us by God is based on the inclusion of all things, including faith, in the “what you have received”. But Paul was not referring to faith, in 1Cor 4:7, and nothing says that faith is gifted to us. This makes your argument a circular argument. You’re assuming that faith is something that must be given to us.
But faith is something that is ours from birth. Trust is trust! We learn to trust our parents, our friends, our teachers and we have to develop trust for God and what he has said to us. It is not something we get from God, it is something we give to God. We place our trust in him!
Doug
It is your faith after it is gifted to
You assume way to much with the phrase "whosoever believes".
I did not say it was referring solely to faith. So ask you again to answer Paul's question. What do you have you have not recieved. I would answer nothing. For the third time what would be your answer??
Saving faith is yours from birth? Chapter and verse
TibiasDad
Well-known member
No it’s not! First nothing says it was given, and secondly, in your theological view, I don’t have the right to not exercise faith that is given. I have to believe, I have to trust necessarily.
And how is that? Whoever believes means anyone who believes, period!
I didn’t say you did refer to faith solely!
We are created in the image of God, which gives us the natural ability to choose whom we like, love and trust! From birth, we do not need God’s permission to like, love or trust anyone; it is a natural process.
We are not lacking the ability to trust and need God to give it to us!
Did God give you faith to trust your parents, your friends or teachers? Does God have to give us faith for every occasion?
What’s the difference between trusting one thing over another.
Jesus repeatedly said “O you of little faith”; he never said “O you to whom God has not given faith”!
Doug
It means.. a person is convicted to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...by Him
By Him? So that conviction is always successful correct??
Yes it is!! LOL And gifts are given.
I agree. We are not the side that reads ability into whosoever believes however. That would be your side.
Yup. Hence I can still answer Paul's question with a emphatic NOTHING.
Still does not negate the fact it was gifted to them.
Why do you dodge my question Doug? What would be your answer?
Well people respond to it with belief or rejection. God doesn't force people to believe. A person can reject His conviction.
That isn't a person over powering God..it's God not saving someone who rejects Him.
John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2 vs 8-9, Romans 5:8, John 5:24, etc..
So sometimes He is successful and other times not so much? He fails.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Faith is never called a gift; that includes Eph 2:8-9!
What question is left unanswered?
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
He is always successful; he saves all believers and he doesn’t save/condemns all who don’t believe! Both sides of the equation are promises of God!
Doug
Rockson
Well-known member
True. The Calvinist way really has Jesus saying, "According to your good luck it shall be done unto you" They don't say this with words but if you take the wraps off of what they're saying it's really the same thing.
His conviction is always successful? That was the question. Good try.
All of salvation is a gift. That would include faith.
LOL, one more time. Paul asks, " what do you have that you have not recieved"?
I say NOTHING. You answer would be what? For the fourth time. Would you answer faith?
civic
Well-known member
Of course since we know Gods grace throughout scripture is resisted by His people.
Next
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
Barnes:
the triumphant King and Lord of Zion wept! Amid all "his" prosperity, and all the acclamations of the multitude, the heart of the Redeemer of the world was turned from the tokens of rejoicing to the miseries about to come on a guilty people. Yet they "might" have been saved.
conclusion: Those whom He came to seek and save ( the lost ) rejected Him.
2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!
Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.
People sin: Which separated all from fellowship with God.
Responsible: Able-to-respond to God’s appeals for reconciliation.
Open door: For anyone to enter by faith. Whosoever will may come to His open arms.
Vicarious atonement: Provides a way for anyone to be saved by Christ’s blood.
Illuminating grace: Provides clearly revealed truth so that all can know and respond in faith.
Destroyed: For unbelief and resisting the Holy Spirit.
Eternal security: For all true believers.
Gods teaching His Grace is resisted which refutes the " I " in tulip
My top 20 reasons against grace being irresistible
1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.
hope this helps !!!
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
He saves all who believe in 100% of the time! He condemns all who do not believe 100% of the time. 100% of the time God is successful in doing what he says he will do!
The only way to deny this is by producing one example of each category where God hasn’t done what he said he would do.
Doug
Except save the whole world right?
Is His conviction always successful without fail?
Yup, it is resistable until He deems otherwise. My God is perfectly capable of breaking down any resistance He may encounter. How about yours?
The topic is His conviction. For the second time. Is His conviction always successful?
