Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?

[TomL]

Of course. They were given a new heart to do so and then were granted or given belief. All with God being the direct cause.

The topic is hearing and learning. Not believing. In John 6 the giving by the Father precedes hearing and learning.

That is assumption

All we get from the passage and the giving is

The Father gives those that were his

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

and they believed the Father

John 17:8 (NIV) — 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

There is no evidence of regeneration before their faith.

And such a belief is contrary to many passages previously posted

BTW the giving does not preceed the hearing and learning, for as a result of the hearing and learning they come to Christ

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

 

[brightfame52]

But your interpretation of scripture does not determine scripture

For scripture to interpret scripture it must be exegeted properly

You never do this and use your assumptions regarding one passage to deny another.

It is an extremely poor hermeneutic.

You finding fault with a person explaining scripture with scripture. Also exegesis isnt always necessary, in fact most of the time its not. Whats necessary is that what one argues for doesnt contradict the overall revelation of truth. Exegeting is more for a Pastor Teacher and his flock

 

[TomL]

You finding fault with a person explaining scripture with scripture. Also exegesis isnt always necessary, in fact most of the time its not. Whats necessary is that what one argues for doesnt contradict the overall revelation of truth. Exegeting is more for a Pastor Teacher and his flock

No, I find problem with a person ignoring context and trying to interpret a verse by an assumed interpretation of another verse.

It is a very poor way to go about understanding scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I find problem with a person ignoring context and trying to interpret a verse by an assumed interpretation of another verse.

It is a very poor way to go about understanding scripture.

No you finding fault with a person comparing scripture with scripture for interpretation. To borrow a scripture from another context of scripture without exegeting is common among the Aostles and Jesus Himself, for you to demand that is putting folk in bondage

 

[Presby02]

That is assumption

All we get from the passage and the giving is

The Father gives those that were his

John 17:6 (NIV) — 6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

and they believed the Father

John 17:8 (NIV) — 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

There is no evidence of regeneration before their faith.

And such a belief is contrary to many passages previously posted

BTW the giving does not preceed the hearing and learning, for as a result of the hearing and learning they come to Christ

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

It's not a assumption. It's Ezekiel 36. It could not be more clear.

And, at least in your proof texts, faith precedes regeneration. Your assuming.

So does everyone hear and learn?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Either way, we must remember too it is the Holy Spirit that does the real persuasion.

BINGO!!! It takes a LOT of persuasion for a person to SURRENDER, and REPENT of everything they' learned / stood for for DECADES that they now understand is FATALLY WRONG!!!!

Just imagine what it took Atheists like C.S. Lewis, or would take Richard Dawkins to turn their backs on their entire professional public teaching history, admit their error, and begin teach the truth!!!

The Holy Spirit IS the only persuader that counts, BUT Christians giving witness if their truth can "Grease the ways" for a person to decide of their OWN FREE WILL to move forward in FAITH!!! Pete Trites was the one who pidgeonholed me 60 years ago, and gave me the "push" I needed under conviction to surrender and repent.

 

[TomL]

It's not a assumption. It's Ezekiel 36. It could not be more clear.

And, at least in your proof texts, faith precedes regeneration. Your assuming.

So does everyone hear and learn?

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

You have not addressed them in any manner to justify your claim of assumption.

 

[TomL]

No you finding fault with a person comparing scripture with scripture for interpretation. To borrow a scripture from another context of scripture without exegeting is common among the Aostles and Jesus Himself, for you to demand that is putting folk in bondage

You are not comparing scripture with scripture when you ignore the exegesis of many verses contrary to your theology.

It is apparent you do not have a proper understanding of how scripture interprets scripture

 

[brightfame52]

You are not comparing scripture with scripture when you ignore the exegesis of many verses contrary to your theology.

It is apparent you do not have a proper understanding of how scripture interprets scripture

Exegesis isnt always necessary to borrow a scripture from another context, that putting folk in bondage. Its necessary to know and be famliar with scripture,but not always to exegete it. And when its appropriate to exegete it should be among them of like precious faith. What profit to exegete scripture to a person dead in sin, and at enmity with God, you would be a fool

 

[TomL]

Exegesis isnt always necessary to borrow a scripture from another context, that putting folk in bondage. Its necessary to know and be famliar with scripture,but not always to exegete it. And when its appropriate to exegete it should be among them of like precious faith. What profit to exegete scripture to a person dead in sin, and at enmity with God, you would be a fool

What you are doing is ignoring everything that is contrary to your theology based on your assumed interpretation of other verses

This is simply unsound methodology.

 

[brightfame52]

What you are doing is ignoring everything that is contrary to your theology based on your assumed interpretation of other verses

This is simply unsound methodology.

I havent seen one verse you have shown to be contrary, and you havent proved it. I have shown many verses to establish my witness, and you flip it off as being out of context, thats an excuse to reject scripture truth and justify it.

 

[TomL]

I havent seen one verse you have shown to be contrary, and you havent proved it. I have shown many verses to establish my witness, and you flip it off as being out of context, thats an excuse to reject scripture truth and justify it.

You have not addressed one verse. You simply deny everything based upon your assumed interpretation of some other verse.
It really is poor handling of the word of God.

 

[brightfame52]

You have not addressed one verse. You simply deny everything based upon your assumed interpretation of some other verse.
It really is poor handling of the word of God.

I haven't seen one verse you have shown to be contrary, and you haven't proved it.

 

[civic]

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

You have not addressed them in any manner to justify your claim of assumption.

Ditto

 

[TomL]

Ditto

But he will never address the verses

Post in thread 'Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?'

Apr 13, 2025

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God...

• civic

 

[TomL]

I haven't seen one verse you have shown to be contrary, and you haven't proved it.

Bald denial

Show the verses are consistent with your theology

Post in thread 'Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?'

Apr 13, 2025

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God...

• civic

 

[brightfame52]

Bald denial

Show the verses are consistent with your theology

Post in thread 'Is persuasion even necessary in Calvinism ?'

Apr 13, 2025

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God...

• civic

Prove it, then

 

[civic]

Prove it, then

He already did ,

Next

 

[TomL]

Prove it, then

I just did. Are you incapable of reading or seeing that faith comes before life

Don't just offer bald denials, deal with that fact.

 

[Presby02]

Um Ezek iel 36 says nothing whatsoever about faith being the result of regeneration.

My list of verses can hardly be called assumption

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

You have not addressed them in any manner to justify your claim of assumption.

Sure do. One verse mentions regeneration in your proof texts. The rest you simply assume.

In Ezekiel 36 it is God who causes one to obey Him. How? By replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh which is regeneration.