TibiasDad
Active Member
No, it is demonstrably true. Paul always correlates work with the Jewish laws, and never as mere human actions. His teachings are always in contrast to his Pharisaical background and their teachings.
Doug
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Eph 2:8-9 say that works and faith are antithetical to each other. We are saved by grace, though faith, not by works of merit by keeping the law.
Doug
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Then why????????????????????
1. Romans 4: 4-5 “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.” ......Paul deliberately contrasts “works” and “believes.” They are opposites
2. Romans 3: 27-28 “Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”
3. Ephesians 2:8–9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” ...... Faith is the channel of the gift, and Paul immediately says the whole thing (grace + faith) is not of works.
4. Romans 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”... Faith and works are mutually exclusive in justification.
5. John 6:28–29 (Jesus Himself) They asked him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God? ”Jesus answered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” ......Jesus redefines “the work of God” as believing — i.e., believing is the opposite of human working.
6. Titus 3:5“He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy…”(Context shows salvation that comes through faith — see vs. 8)
“Paul uses the sharpest possible contrast six different ways to say ‘faith is not a work.’If you still insist faith is a work, please show me even one verse where Scripture puts faith and works on the same side of the equation instead of the opposite sides.”
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Sorry @TibiasDad , On this one I have to disagree.
Doug,
The way you have phrased this is it keeps the core mistake of “works” in Paul = only “works of the law” or “the idea that we can earn merit.”
The NT itself, repeatedly and deliberately uses “works” much more broadly than just the Mosaic Law or “trying to earn merit.” Here’s what I see....
Paul explicitly uses Works for any Human effort.... not just the law
In Romans 4: 2-6
2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Abraham was more then 400 years before the law, proving that "Works" = any action or achievement , not just Torah.
Romans 9:11
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
This was when Jacob and Esau were still in the womb proving "Works" = any good or bad deed whatsoever.
Paul’s Contrast Is Faith vs. Works of Any Kind, Not Just “Trying to Earn”
Paul never limits the contrast to “the proud attitude that I deserve something.
He contrasts doing vs. believing/trusting/receiving.
Romans 4:4-5 “To the one who works … vs. the one who does not work but believes.” ....The issue is working at all, not just the attitude.
Philippians 3:9 “not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but … through faith in Christ.” .....Yes, he mentions the law, but the bigger category is “a righteousness of my own” ...... any self-derived righteousness.
The Bible actually commands Human Action...... BUT NEVER as the ground for justification
Good works are required as the fruit and evidence of true faith .......... look at James 2: 14-26, Eph 2:10 and Matt 7:21
But they are never the root or cause of our justification before God.
IOW... In Paul we see works means any and all human doing or achievement from Jewish law-keeping or Gentile moral effort
offered as a basis for righteousness... FAITH IS THE ONLY NON-WORK... it is the Empty hand that receives what Christ has done.
So the claim “works only means Jewish law or the attitude of merit” is just too narrow and contradicts Romans 4, Ephesians 2, Titus 3:5, etc.
brightfame52
Active Member
No it's not except in your mind. Believing is a work. What works does Jesus mean here of Abraham?Jn 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
brightfame52
Active Member
It's not said Faith/believing is not works, but they are antithetical to works of the flesh because they are produced by Grace. But religion says faith/believing are conditions the natural man does to get saved. That's works .
Once you make something conditions to do, you forfeit Grace
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Wrong
In Romans 4: 2-6
2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3. For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4. Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
1. Romans 4: 4-5 “Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.” ......Paul deliberately contrasts “works” and “believes.” They are opposites
2. Romans 3: 27-28 “Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”
3. Ephesians 2:8–9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” ...... Faith is the channel of the gift, and Paul immediately says the whole thing (grace + faith) is not of works.
4. Romans 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”... Faith and works are mutually exclusive in justification.
5. John 6:28–29 (Jesus Himself) They asked him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God? ”Jesus answered, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” ......Jesus redefines “the work of God” as believing — i.e., believing is the opposite of human working.
6. Titus 3:5“He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy…”(Context shows salvation that comes through faith — see vs. 8)
brightfame52
Active Member
I'm posting why.
brightfame52
Active Member
What are the works of Abraham? One writer writes:
John 8:39 (KJB)
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Then they answered him with a diversion believing that Abraham was their father. He may have been a physical descendant but their actions did not coincide with Abraham’s. Abraham had believed God and it was counted as righteousness but these were anything but righteous. Jesus tells them that if they were truly Abraham’s children, then they would do the works of Abraham. The works of Abraham was belief in God and to act on that belief in obedience to the Lord. Abraham was a child of God. (Gal 3:29 KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. The only way these leaders could be a true child of Abraham is if they would receive Christ as their Savior. This would be the work of Abraham. Every true believer is a descendant of Abraham in the area of salvation. We are related by being in the body of Christ
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I posted twice why you are wrong.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Non-biased Ai
The “works of Abraham” that Paul talks about (especially in Romans 4 and Galatians 3) are any and all actions Abraham did trying to obtain righteousness or blessing on his own strength — before he was justified by faith.
Here are the exact “works” the Bible has in mind:
| “Work” of Abraham | Description | When it happened | Why it didn’t justify him |
|---|---|---|---|
| Leaving Ur & Haran | Obeyed God’s call (Gen 12) | Before justification | Good, but still a human work |
| Building altars & calling on the Lord | Early acts of worship | Gen 12–13 | Still pre-faith righteousness |
| Fighting to rescue Lot | Brave military action (Gen 14) | Before Gen 15 | Impressive, but not the ground of justification |
| Trying to gain the promised heir through Hagar (Ishmael) | The biggest “work” — human effort to “help” God’s promise | Gen 16 | Paul explicitly calls this “works” and fleshly effort (Gal 4:23–29) |
Then, in Genesis 15:6 — after all those works — we finally read:
“And he [Abraham] believed the LORD, and He counted it to him as righteousness.”
Paul’s whole point in Romans 4:1–5:
Abraham was not justified by any of those earlier actions (“If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about — but not before God”).
He was justified the moment he simply believed God’s promise about a coming Seed — with no works at all involved at that moment.
“The ‘works of Abraham’ are everything he did before Genesis 15:6 — leaving Ur, rescuing Lot, taking Hagar, etc. — and Paul says none of those justified him; he was declared righteous the instant he believed God’s promise, apart from all works.”
That’s why Abraham is the father of everyone (Jew or Gentile) who is justified by faith alone.
TibiasDad
Active Member
This proves my point: Abraham believing was a human action, but is in direct contrast with works as a means of ‘earning’, “not credited as a favor but as what is due.” ‘What is due’ is the idea of deserving reward or earning merit by our actions, and thus obligating God to act because of what we have done.
Abraham acted, but it was not works because he did it in faith, not knowing where he was going or what would happen beyond that God had promised to him. He didn’t think he deserved anything, he just trusted that God would do what he promised. Faith is action, but not works.
Doug
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TibiasDad
Active Member
Believing is an action but not a work. The works of Abraham are faith demonstrated by obedience. They are not done so as to earn favor, but simply in belief that God will do what he promised.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay that's fine
brightfame52
Active Member
His believing God is some of his works!
Gill writes
Jesus saith unto them, if ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham; for who should children imitate but their parents? Abraham was a merciful, charitable, and hospitable man, as well as a man of strict justice and integrity; he feared God, believed in him, and was ready to receive every message and revelation which came from him; and they are his genuine children and offspring, who walk in the steps of his faith, charity, justice, and piety: and this is a rule which the Jews themselves give (m), whereby the seed of Abraham may be known: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/8-39.htm
brightfame52
Active Member
It's a work
TibiasDad
Active Member
Ridiculous! You cannot be saved without believing, therefore it is a necessary condition that God places on us to be saved. Numerous times in scripture it is that lack of faith that is attributed to the lack of God acting in man’s behalf. (Mark 6:5-6, Mark 16:14, Matt 13:58) If something is necessary for X, it is necessarily a condition of X.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Not in Paul’s mind. It is the antithesis of work. We are saved through/by faith, not by works. Believing is, nevertheless, an action to be taken necessarily in order to be saved. It is an action, not a work in Paul’s mind.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Believing is a work and I proved it you just don't accept it
brightfame52
Active Member
Believing is a work there's no way around it
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