Imputation of the Righteousness of Christ.

[praise_yeshua]

Original reference.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-dangerous-false-doctrine-of-arminianism-throughout-the-teaching-of-john-wesley.1813/post-89545

"Word parsing" is common in most all of the arguments made between Calvinists and Arminianists. Many believe that "Imputation" is a "loaded word". I do agree that "word choice" in the Scriptures is a very important issue. In fact, it extends far beyond this particular topic into many doctrinal positions.

As @TomL mentions below,

praise_yeshua said:
John Wesley = “We do not find it expressly affirmed in Scripture, that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to any…” John Wesley “The Works of the Rev. John Wesley” page 350, published by J & J Harper in 1826
That happens to be a true statement

what we do read

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In review, this same man also stated,

"I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death"
Which seems not to be compatible with his latter statement "We do not find it expressly affirmed in Scripture, that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to any…”

First question....

1. What righteousness do we receive or are gifted (use the word you prefer) in Salvation?

Consider, the explicit statement of the apostle Paul when dealing with what "righteousness" he planned to appeal in the "Resurrection".

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

2. What word would best describe the righteousness established through the work of Christ or work of faith. Feel free to reword to meet your understanding in response. Not trying to lead anyone at all.

"Imputation" is a English word that has become more of a reference to a "doctrine" than a simple word relating information. The same is true for English words such as "Concupiscence". (Doctrinal teaches attempt to "lead" the narrative in any discussion of "faith". This should not be true)

Word choices carry with them various "connotations" beyond their "literal" meaning.

λογίζομαι is found 124 times throughout the Scriptures in 122 verses.

The first appearance of the Greek word "λογίζομαι" is found in Genesis 15:6 and is proof of Paul's appeal to such from the Greek OT in Romans 4 and James's appeal in James chapter 2.

However, λογίζομαι is also found throughout the Scriptures.

The sematic range of λογίζομαι requires much consideration. At its very base form λογίζομαι is a "consideration" or "mental decision". A "reasoned conclusion".

Add the fact that λογίζομαι is explicitly tied to "reconciliation" (Which has also become more of a doctrine than a translation in English) in 2 Cor 5:19

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Which "flavors" our conclusions.

Personally, I believe the best choice of words in English for λογίζομαι is "considered, count, or reckon". I have no problem with "impute" but unless you know the circumstances, this can be a "loaded word" in the conversation.

I hope that I've lead with an appropriate/fair evaluation of the topic. Please correct me where you "λογίζομαι" I'm wrong.

 

[TomL]

Original reference.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-dangerous-false-doctrine-of-arminianism-throughout-the-teaching-of-john-wesley.1813/post-89545

"Word parsing" is common in most all of the arguments made between Calvinists and Arminianists. Many believe that "Imputation" is a "loaded word". I do agree that "word choice" in the Scriptures is a very important issue. In fact, it extends far beyond this particular topic into many doctrinal positions.

As @TomL mentions below,



In review, this same man also stated,

"I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death"
Which seems not to be compatible with his latter statement "We do not find it expressly affirmed in Scripture, that God imputes the righteousness of Christ to any…”

First question....

1. What righteousness do we receive or are gifted (use the word you prefer) in Salvation?

Consider, the explicit statement of the apostle Paul when dealing with what "righteousness" he planned to appeal in the "Resurrection".

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

2. What word would best describe the righteousness established through the work of Christ or work of faith. Feel free to reword to meet your understanding in response. Not trying to lead anyone at all.

"Imputation" is a English word that has become more of a reference to a "doctrine" than a simple word relating information. The same is true for English words such as "Concupiscence". (Doctrinal teaches attempt to "lead" the narrative in any discussion of "faith". This should not be true)

Word choices carry with them various "connotations" beyond their "literal" meaning.

λογίζομαι is found 124 times throughout the Scriptures in 122 verses.

The first appearance of the Greek word "λογίζομαι" is found in Genesis 15:6 and is proof of Paul's appeal to such from the Greek OT in Romans 4 and James's appeal in James chapter 2.

However, λογίζομαι is also found throughout the Scriptures.

The sematic range of λογίζομαι requires much consideration. At its very base form λογίζομαι is a "consideration" or "mental decision". A "reasoned conclusion".

Add the fact that λογίζομαι is explicitly tied to "reconciliation" (Which has also become more of a doctrine than a translation in English) in 2 Cor 5:19

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Which "flavors" our conclusions.

Personally, I believe the best choice of words in English for λογίζομαι is "considered, count, or reckon". I have no problem with "impute" but unless you know the circumstances, this can be a "loaded word" in the conversation.

I hope that I've lead with an appropriate/fair evaluation of the topic. Please correct me where you "λογίζομαι" I'm wrong.

Impute is fine as are counted, reckoned etc. According to scripture it is our faith which God counts for righteousness. This is a forensic righteousness whereby ye are decreed, credited to be right with God

λογίζομαι (logizomai), vb. count; credit; consider. aor.pass. ἐλογίσθη; perf.mid. λελόγισμαι. Hebrew equivalent: חשׁב (34). LTW λογίζομαι (Belief), λογίζομαι (Forgiveness).
Verb Usage
1. to consider (reckon) — to deem or reckon to be. See also τίθημι. Related Topics: Opinion; Reckon.
2 Co 10:2 ᾗ λογίζομαι τολμῆσαι ἐπί τινας τοὺς λογιζομένους ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ
2 Co 11:5 λογίζομαι γὰρ μηδὲν ὑστερηκέναι τῶν ὑπερλίαν ἀποστόλων·
2 Co 12:6 μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται ὑπὲρ ὃ βλέπει με ἢ
Php 3:13 ἀδελφοί, ἐγὼ ἐμαυτὸν οὐ λογίζομαι κατειληφέναι·
1 Pe 5:12 Διὰ Σιλουανοῦ ὑμῖν τοῦ πιστοῦ ἀδελφοῦ, ὡς λογίζομαι,

2. to think (believe)† — to expect, believe, or suppose.
2 Co 3:5 οὐχ ὅτι ἀφʼ ἑαυτῶν ἱκανοί ἐσμεν λογίσασθαί τι ὡς ἐξ

3. to be credited — to be or become attributed or reckoned as an asset in someone’s (financial) account. Related Topics: Debt; Credit; Lender; Interest and Usury In the Greco-Roman Period.
Ro 4:3 καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.
Ro 4:5 τὸν ἀσεβῆ, λογίζεται ἡ
Ro 4:22 διὸ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.
2 Ti 4:16 μὴ αὐτοῖς λογισθείη—
Jas 2:23 καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην,

4. to be considered (state)† — to be or become reckoned or deemed to be. Related Topics: Opinion; Reckon.
Ro 2:26 εἰς περιτομὴν λογισθήσεται;
Ro 8:36 ἐλογίσθημεν ὡς πρόβατα σφαγῆς.
Ro 9:8 τὰ τέκνα τῆς ἐπαγγελίας λογίζεται εἰς σπέρμα·

5. to think (ponder)† — to ponder; reflect on, or reason about. See also νοέω. Related Topics: Reasoning; Reason; Thought; Muse; Think; Ponder; Logos.
Php 4:8 ἔπαινος, ταῦτα λογίζεσθε·

6. to think (reason)† — to use or exercise the mind or one’s power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments. Related Topics: Reasoning; Reason; Thought; Muse; Think; Ponder; Logos.
Jn 11:50 οὐδὲ λογίζεσθε ὅτι συμφέρει ὑμῖν ἵνα εἷς ἄνθρωπος ἀποθάνῃ ὑπὲρ
Ro 2:3 λογίζῃ δὲ τοῦτο, ὦ ἄνθρωπε ὁ κρίνων τοὺς τὰ τοιαῦτα
1 Co 13:11 ἐλογιζόμην ὡς νήπιος·
2 Co 10:7 εἴ τις πέποιθεν ἑαυτῷ Χριστοῦ εἶναι, τοῦτο λογιζέσθω πάλιν ἐφʼ
2 Co 10:11 τοῦτο λογιζέσθω ὁ τοιοῦτος, ὅτι οἷοί ἐσμεν τῷ λόγῳ διʼ

7. to credit† — to attribute or reckon as an asset in someone’s (financial) account. Related Topics: Debt; Credit; Lender; Interest and Usury In the Greco-Roman Period.
Ro 4:6 ᾧ ὁ θεὸς λογίζεται δικαιοσύνην χωρὶς ἔργων·
Ro 4:8 μακάριος ἀνὴρ οὗ οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν.
2 Co 5:19 μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα αὐτῶν,

8. to be counted (grouped)† — to be or become classified into a group. Related Topic: Census.
Mk 15:28 μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη
Lk 22:37 τό· Καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη·

9. to tally† — to keep count of something in order to determine the sum or total.
1 Co 13:5 οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν,
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

 

[praise_yeshua]

Impute is fine as are counted, reckoned etc. According to scripture it is our faith which God counts for righteousness. This is a forensic righteousness whereby ye are decreed, credited to be right with God

λογίζομαι (logizomai), vb. count; credit; consider. aor.pass. ἐλογίσθη; perf.mid. λελόγισμαι. Hebrew equivalent: חשׁב (34). LTW λογίζομαι (Belief), λογίζομαι (Forgiveness).
Verb Usage
1. to consider (reckon) — to deem or reckon to be. See also τίθημι. Related Topics: Opinion; Reckon.
2 Co 10:2 ᾗ λογίζομαι τολμῆσαι ἐπί τινας τοὺς λογιζομένους ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ
2 Co 11:5 λογίζομαι γὰρ μηδὲν ὑστερηκέναι τῶν ὑπερλίαν ἀποστόλων·
2 Co 12:6 μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται ὑπὲρ ὃ βλέπει με ἢ
Php 3:13 ἀδελφοί, ἐγὼ ἐμαυτὸν οὐ λογίζομαι κατειληφέναι·
1 Pe 5:12 Διὰ Σιλουανοῦ ὑμῖν τοῦ πιστοῦ ἀδελφοῦ, ὡς λογίζομαι,

2. to think (believe)† — to expect, believe, or suppose.
2 Co 3:5 οὐχ ὅτι ἀφʼ ἑαυτῶν ἱκανοί ἐσμεν λογίσασθαί τι ὡς ἐξ

3. to be credited — to be or become attributed or reckoned as an asset in someone’s (financial) account. Related Topics: Debt; Credit; Lender; Interest and Usury In the Greco-Roman Period.
Ro 4:3 καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.
Ro 4:5 τὸν ἀσεβῆ, λογίζεται ἡ
Ro 4:22 διὸ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην.
2 Ti 4:16 μὴ αὐτοῖς λογισθείη—
Jas 2:23 καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην,

4. to be considered (state)† — to be or become reckoned or deemed to be. Related Topics: Opinion; Reckon.
Ro 2:26 εἰς περιτομὴν λογισθήσεται;
Ro 8:36 ἐλογίσθημεν ὡς πρόβατα σφαγῆς.
Ro 9:8 τὰ τέκνα τῆς ἐπαγγελίας λογίζεται εἰς σπέρμα·

5. to think (ponder)† — to ponder; reflect on, or reason about. See also νοέω. Related Topics: Reasoning; Reason; Thought; Muse; Think; Ponder; Logos.
Php 4:8 ἔπαινος, ταῦτα λογίζεσθε·

6. to think (reason)† — to use or exercise the mind or one’s power of reason in order to make inferences, decisions, or arrive at a solution or judgments. Related Topics: Reasoning; Reason; Thought; Muse; Think; Ponder; Logos.
Jn 11:50 οὐδὲ λογίζεσθε ὅτι συμφέρει ὑμῖν ἵνα εἷς ἄνθρωπος ἀποθάνῃ ὑπὲρ
Ro 2:3 λογίζῃ δὲ τοῦτο, ὦ ἄνθρωπε ὁ κρίνων τοὺς τὰ τοιαῦτα
1 Co 13:11 ἐλογιζόμην ὡς νήπιος·
2 Co 10:7 εἴ τις πέποιθεν ἑαυτῷ Χριστοῦ εἶναι, τοῦτο λογιζέσθω πάλιν ἐφʼ
2 Co 10:11 τοῦτο λογιζέσθω ὁ τοιοῦτος, ὅτι οἷοί ἐσμεν τῷ λόγῳ διʼ

7. to credit† — to attribute or reckon as an asset in someone’s (financial) account. Related Topics: Debt; Credit; Lender; Interest and Usury In the Greco-Roman Period.
Ro 4:6 ᾧ ὁ θεὸς λογίζεται δικαιοσύνην χωρὶς ἔργων·
Ro 4:8 μακάριος ἀνὴρ οὗ οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν.
2 Co 5:19 μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα αὐτῶν,

8. to be counted (grouped)† — to be or become classified into a group. Related Topic: Census.
Mk 15:28 μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη
Lk 22:37 τό· Καὶ μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη·

9. to tally† — to keep count of something in order to determine the sum or total.
1 Co 13:5 οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν,
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

This is a good opportunity to recognize how Greek Lexicons overstate the differences in the semantic range of ancient words across languages.

#3 and #7 are bogus. There is no context of a financial settlements anywhere. Not even within the context of debt.

We buy without money.

Lexicons are not authority. They are written by men. Same is true of translations, they are written of men.

There were a couple questions I asked in the OP. Can you answer them?

 

[TomL]

This is a good opportunity to recognize how Greek Lexicons overstate the differences in the semantic range of ancient words across languages.

#3 and #7 are bogus. There is no context of a financial settlements anywhere. Not even within the context of debt.

We buy without money.

Lexicons are not authority. They are written by men. Same is true of translations, they are written of men.

There were a couple questions I asked in the OP. Can you answer them?

Credited does not need to refer to financial matters

You asked two question

both were answered here

Impute is fine as are counted, reckoned etc. According to scripture it is our faith which God counts for righteousness. This is a forensic righteousness whereby ye are decreed, credited to be right with God

 

[praise_yeshua]

Credited does not need to refer to financial matters

Then tell your source to correct his claims. That is exactly what he did. Which you posted without thought otherwise. You might consider doing your own work instead of just pasting something from someone else.

You asked two question

Impute is fine as are counted, reckoned etc. According to scripture it is our faith which God counts for righteousness. This is a forensic righteousness whereby ye are decreed, credited to be right with God

Here is what I asked......

1. What righteousness do we receive or are gifted (use the word you prefer) in Salvation?

You did not answer this. If you're sloppily trying to state that "faith" is "righteousness", then we know this contradicts the Scriptures I posted.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,

If what you say is true then "Paul's faith" would be his own.

 

[TomL]

Then tell your source to correct his claims. That is exactly what he did. Which you posted without thought otherwise. You might consider doing your own work instead of just pasting something from someone else.

There are parentheses around financial

Here is what I asked......

1. What righteousness do we receive or are gifted (use the word you prefer) in Salvation?

You did not answer this. If you're sloppily trying to state that "faith" is "righteousness", then we know this contradicts the Scriptures I posted.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness,

If what you say is true then "Paul's faith" would be his own.

Sorry I disagree

what I stated is our faith is counted for righteousness

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The one who believes has his faith counted for righteousness

that is scripture

BTW you presented a partial citiation which led you to a position contrary to the text

Philippians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

there is nothing there which speaks of righteousness imputed from another

It is of God because God credits the one who believes as righteous

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are parentheses around financial

What do think this means?

Sorry I disagree

what I stated is our faith is counted for righteousness

There no reason to be "sorry" for anything. I know we disagree already...

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The one who believes has his faith counted for righteousness

That is the method not the "what". What righteousness. Who has the righteousness? THROUGH faith....Christ considers us His own. Our righteousness is in Him just like election is "in Him".

BTW you presented a partial citiation which led you to a position contrary to the text

Philippians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

there is nothing there which speaks of righteousness imputed from another

It is of God because God credits the one who believes as righteous

I focused. I wasn't leaving out anything. You are assuming the method of faith is the "what" of righteousness.

BY faith. THROUGH faith. Righteousness is NOT faith. The substance of righteousness is not Faith.

Please don't repeat the Calvinist "talking point" of "just believe what it says"..... You're assuming what it says. I can read just fine.

Again. "Not having my own righteousness" settles the argument. If what you say is true concerning the issue then Paul could not say, "not my own righteousness". In fact, you're actually establishing the Calvinist argument that faith doesn't come from man but from God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "in Him" of Righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[TomL]

What do think this means?

A financial i.e. monetrary meaning is not necessary

There no reason to be "sorry" for anything. I know we disagree already...



That is the method not the "what". What righteousness. Who has the righteousness? THROUGH faith....Christ considers us His own. Our righteousness is in Him just like election is "in Him".



I focused. I wasn't leaving out anything. You are assuming the method of faith is the "what" of righteousness.

The righteousness God grants to those who believe

Once again we do not read of the rightness of another imputed to our account

BY faith. THROUGH faith. Righteousness is NOT faith. The substance of righteousness is not Faith.

No but it is credited as righteousness

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Please don't repeat the Calvinist "talking point" of "just believe what it says"..... You're assuming what it says. I can read just fine.

There is no assumption here

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

or here for that matter

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Again. "Not having my own righteousness" settles the argument. If what you say is true concerning the issue then Paul could not say, "not my own righteousness". In fact, you're actually establishing the Calvinist argument that faith doesn't come from man but from God.

Only because you are cutting the verse short and not allowing it to speak for itself

Philippians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,

The point is Paul is decrying a righteousness earned by following law

and affirming a righteousness that one has credited to him by god as a result of his faith




but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[praise_yeshua]

A financial i.e. monetrary meaning is not necessary

Then why was it included? Is that what parenthesis represent? Do they mean that parenthesis represent the fact that is.... "it is not "necessary"?

The righteousness God grants to those who believe

Same with election? Isn't election "in Him"? "in Christ"?..... (why did you not include this in your response to me?)

Then why is not our own then? Who's righteousness is it? You keep ignoring this simple question. You're not dealing with it at all. You just repeating yourself.

Only because you are cutting the verse short and not allowing it to speak for itself

I don't care if you include the entire verse. It doesn't change anything. You're asking me to ignore the obvious, who owns this righteousness. Who possesses this righteousness.

is salvation both a gift yet still requires faith?

You're making Calvinist arguments in response. Which is why you can never accept Arminianism responses as being entirely accurate. Such arguments are fundamentally flawed in accepting much of the same premises. The same is true of the religious philosophy's of many other religions such as Islam. Calvin and Arminianism are fundamentally flawed in similar ways.

 

[TomL]

A financial i.e. monetrary meaning is not necessary

Then why was it included? Is that what parenthesis represent? Do they mean that parenthesis represent the fact that is.... "it is not "necessary"?

The term comes from accounting but not limited to it

Credited is a legitimate meaning

1. reckon, calculate—a. count, take into account τὶ someth. ἡ ἀγάπη οὐ λογίζεται τὸ κακόν love does not take evil into account 1 Cor 13:5 (cf. Zech 8:17). λ. τί τινι count someth. against someone, to punish him for it (Simplicius in Epict. p. 79, 15 τὴν ἁμαρτίαν οὐ τῷ πράττοντι λογίζονται; Test. Zeb. 9:7) μὴ λογιζόμενος αὐτοῖς τὰ παραπτώματα 2 Cor 5:19.—οὗ οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν Ro 4:8 (Ps 31:2). Pass. (Lev 17:4) μὴ αὐτοῖς λογισθείη (on the form s. Mlt.-H. 217) 2 Ti 4:16.—But ‘place to one’s account’ can also mean credit τῷ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν a workman’s wages are not credited to him as a favor (but as a claim) Ro 4:4. ᾧ ὁ θεὸς λογίζεται δικαιοσύνην vs. 6. Pass. εἰς τὸ λογισθῆναι αὐτοῖς τ. δικαιοσύνην vs. 11.—λ. τινί τι εἴς τι credit someth. to someone as someth. pass. ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην (after Gen 15:6; cf. Ps 105:31; 1 Macc 2:52) Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22 (WDiezinger, NovT 5, ’62, 288-98 [rabbinic use of λογ.]); Gal 3:6; Js 2:23.-Cf. also Ro 4:10, 23f.—H-WHeidland, D. Anrechnung des Glaubens zur Gerechtigkeit ’36; FWDanker, FWGingrich-Festschr., ’72, 104.—λ. εἴς τινα put on someone’s account, charge to someone (commercial t.t.: Dit., Or. 595, 15 τὰ ἕτερα ἀναλώματα ἑαυτοῖς ἐλογισάμεθα, ἵνα μὴ τὴν πόλιν βαρῶμεν; PFay. 21, 9) μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται in order that no one may credit me 2 Cor 12:6.
b. as a result of a calculation evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider (Hyperid. 2, 20) εἰς οὐθὲν λογισθῆναι be looked upon as nothing (Is 40:17; Wsd 3:17; 9:6) Ac 19:27. τὰ τέκνα τ. ἐπαγγελίας λογίζεται εἰς σπέρμα the children of the promise are looked upon as seed Ro 9:8 (cf. La 4:2). οὐχ ἡ ἀκροβυστία αὐτοῦ εἰς περιτομὴν λογισθήσεται; will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 2:26.—Count, class (PLond. 328, 8 of a camel’s colt: λογιζομένου νυνὶ ἐν τελείοις=‘which is now classed among the full-grown’) μετὰ ἀνόμων ἐλογίσθη he was classed among the criminals (Is 53:12) Mk 15:28 t.r.; Lk 22:37. Also (exactly like the LXX) ἐν τοῖς ἀνόμοις ἐλογίσθη 1 Cl 16:13. μετὰ τῶν ἐθνῶν ἐλογίσθησαν they were counted with the heathen Hs 8, 9, 3.—οὐκ ἐλογίσθη he was held in disrespect 1 Cl 16:3 (Is 53:3).—λ. τινα ὡς w. acc. consider, look upon someone as: ἡμᾶς λογιζέσθω ἄνθρωπος ὡς ὑπηρέτας Χριστοῦ 1 Cor 4:1. λ. ἡμᾶς ὡς κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦντας 2 Cor 10:2b. Pass. ἐλογίσθημεν ὡς πρόβατα σφαγῆς Ro 8:36 (Ps 43:23). λ. τινα foll. by acc. and inf. (Is 53:4) λογίζεσθε ἑαυτοὺς εἶναι νεκρούς consider yourselves dead Ro 6:11.
2. think (about) , consider, ponder, let one’s mind dwell on (PsSol 2, 28b; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 227 ταῦτα; Jos., Ant. 6, 211)Phil 4:8. Foll. by ὅτι (PsSol 2, 28a; Philo, Somn. 2, 169; Jos., Ant. 11, 142)J 11:50; Hb 11:19; B 1:5. τοῦτο λ. ὅτι 2 Cor 10:11, 7 (here ἐφʼ [v.l. ἀφʼ] ἑαυτοῦ in his own mind is added). W. ἐν ἑαυταῖς and a direct question foll. Lk 24:1 D.—Have in mind, propose, purpose w. inf. foll. (X., An. 2, 2, 13; 1 Macc 6:19) 2 Cor 10:2a. Think out τὶ someth. (Ps 51:4) ὡς ἐξ ἑαυτῶν as (if) of ourselves 3:5. Reason or make plans (Wsd 2:1) ὡς νήπιος like a child 1 Cor 13:11.
3. think, believe, be of the opinion w. ὅτι foll. Ro 8:18. W. acc. and ὅτι foll.: λογίζῃ τοῦτο. . . , ὅτι; do you imagine that? 2:3. Foll. by acc. and inf. (Wsd 15:12) λογιζόμεθα δικαιοῦσθαι ἄνθρωπον we hold that a man is justified 3:28. λ. τι κοινὸν εἶναι 14:14. ἐμαυτὸν οὔπω λ. κατειληφέναι I consider that I have not yet attained Phil 3:13. ὃν λογίζομαι καὶ τοὺς ἀθέους ἐντρέπεσθαι whom, I believe, even the godless respect ITr 3:2. Foll. by the inf. alone 2 Cor 11:5.—ὡς λογίζομαι as I think 1 Pt 5:12; Dg 7:3.—H-WHeidland, TW IV 287-95. M-M.**


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 475–476.

The righteousness God grants to those who believe

Same with election? Isn't election "in Him"? "in Christ"?..... (why did you not include this in your response to me?)

Yes election is in him but why did i have to include that?

Then why is not our own then? Who's righteousness is it? You keep ignoring this simple question. You're not dealing with it at all. You just repeating yourself.

What do you not understand?

It is a righteousness granted by God

He credits it to us based upon our faith

Faith in itself does not make us righteous but God accounts us as righteous

I am at a loss as to what you do not understand

Only because you are cutting the verse short and not allowing it to speak for itself

I don't care if you include the entire verse. It doesn't change anything. You're asking me to ignore the obvious, who owns this righteousness. Who possesses this righteousness.

You do. It was accredited to your account

is salvation both a gift yet still requires faith?

Yes

You're making Calvinist arguments in response. Which is why you can never accept Arminianism responses as being entirely accurate. Such arguments are fundamentally flawed in accepting much of the same premises. The same is true of the religious philosophy's of many other religions such as Islam. Calvin and Arminianism are fundamentally flawed in similar ways.

I do not see a calvinist argument here at all

A calvinist believes you are imputed with the righteousness of Christ. That is Christs righteousness is transfered to you

I do not and thus have a different view which you appear to not understand

 

[TibiasDad]

This is a good opportunity to recognize how Greek Lexicons overstate the differences in the semantic range of ancient words across languages.

#3 and #7 are bogus. There is no context of a financial settlements anywhere. Not even within the context of debt.

We buy without money.

Lexicons are not authority. They are written by men. Same is true of translations, they are written of men.

There were a couple questions I asked in the OP. Can you answer them?

This post is written by a man, therefore you are not an authority! When you make statements like “Greek Lexicons overstate the differences in the semantic range of ancient words across languages”, you are asserting that you have the authority to determine it to be true.

Tom’s sources referenced scriptural examples of the specific type of use of the definitions; what more can you ask for?

Lexicons show the way that a word is used in actual terms, citing textual references of both biblical and extra biblical sources over a wide range of time. That which is documented cannot be overstated!


Doug

 

[TomL]

This post is written by a man, therefore you are not an authority! When you make statements like “Greek Lexicons overstate the differences in the semantic range of ancient words across languages”, you are asserting that you have the authority to determine it to be true.

Tom’s sources referenced scriptural examples of the specific type of use of the definitions; what more can you ask for?

Lexicons show the way that a word is used in actual terms, citing textual references of both biblical and extra biblical sources over a wide range of time. That which is documented cannot be overstated!


Doug

Sounds like he is exalting his own opinion above that of the experts

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sounds like he is exalting his own opinion above that of the experts

Please establishes the flawless nature of Rick Brannan. I'll wait.

I have access to the exact same information that anyone does. I know the subject. I don't let others think for me.

But ‘place to one’s account’ can also mean credit τῷ ἐργαζομένῳ ὁ μισθὸς οὐ λογίζεται κατὰ χάριν a workman’s wages are not credited to him as a favor (but as a claim)

Why did you "shift" experts? Rick Brannan did not include this in his "version". So much for your "expert"... "on staff".

I'm not going to respond to you any further if you keeping doing what @TibiasDad is doing. I have as much right to claim expertise in this subject than anyone else. If you're going to endless question me on what I say "at face value" then you can talk to someone else.

This is immoral and unethical. @The Rogue Tomato is right about many of you. You make horribly inept arguments and then appeal externally to "experts" you don't even understand. I'm done with you if that how you're going to act.

Anyone can lie and misrepresent others but I'm not going to let any of you do this to me. You can have this place and we'll see what God has to say about it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The term comes from accounting but not limited to it

Then why did "Rick" falsely include it? Wages are many things. The love of money is a root of all evil.

Yes election is in him but why did i have to include that?

Your righteousness is in Him as well.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You obvious don't understand my argument.

You have no righteousness of your own. Your faith is your faith. Your faith does not credit you with righteousness. God credits you with righteousness THROUGH FAITH and BY FAITH.

Tell you what. God sit down beside your car today and claim righteousness through your faith and see where your automobile gets you.

Righteousness has substance and value. The very righteousness of God is counted/imputed to sinners through faith.

Like all false Arminian doctrine, you claim innate value for your faith.

If you can't understand this, then it is your problem.

 

[TibiasDad]

Philippians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Cambridge Bible Commentary on Phil 3:9: [that which is through the faith of Christ] So lit., but better, in regard of English idiom, that which is through faith in Christ. For the Greek construction (“faith of,” meaning “faith in”) cp. e.g. Mark 11:22; Acts 3:16; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.”


Doug

 

[TomL]

Cambridge Bible Commentary on Phil 3:9: [that which is through the faith of Christ] So lit., but better, in regard of English idiom, that which is through faith in Christ. For the Greek construction (“faith of,” meaning “faith in”) cp. e.g. Mark 11:22; Acts 3:16; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.”


Doug

Yes, thank you. Christ is the object and not the subject of faith here

 

[praise_yeshua]

Cambridge Bible Commentary on Phil 3:9: [that which is through the faith of Christ] So lit., but better, in regard of English idiom, that which is through faith in Christ. For the Greek construction (“faith of,” meaning “faith in”) cp. e.g. Mark 11:22; Acts 3:16; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 3:12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.”


Doug

Wow. You searched a commentary and posted the comments. I can do the same thing. How many different ones do you want me to post? How many commentaries of Phil 3:9 are they?

Cambridge is Anglican. I thought you were Wesleyan? Why not post what John Wesley wrote. You do celebrate your idol right? Do you celebrate Aldersgate Day right? Christmas in May?

The world is full of idols and you certain love to quote them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, thank you. Christ is the object and not the subject of faith here

Cheerleading? Pom Poms out?

Anglican... right? Do you serve the monarchy of England?

Lets get this all out of the way..... Go ahead and list your idols that you prefer to reference that wouldn't give you the "time of day" if you wanted them to.....

Have you seen me list comments from a commentary as evidence? You won't. I might to contrast how men disagree on the subject but I certainly don't use them as evidence.

I think I'll start again. I did it for many years.

John Gill
But that which is through the faith of Christ; not through that faith which Christ himself, as man, had and exercised on God, as his God; but that which he is the author and finisher of, and which has him and his righteousness for its object;

Adam Clark
And be found in him - Be found a believer in Christ, not having mine own righteousness - not trusting in any thing I have done or could do, in order to my salvation; relying on no scheme of justification, set up either formerly by myself or by others.
But that which is through the faith of Christ - That justification which is received by faith through the atonement made by Christ.

Albert Barnes
Not having mine own righteousness - That is, not relying on that for salvation. This was now the great aim of Paul, that it might be found at last that he was not trusting to his own merits, but to those of the Lord Jesus.

 

[TomL]

Cheerleading? Pom Poms out?

Anglican... right? Do you serve the monarchy of England?

Nope

Lets get this all out of the way..... Go ahead and list your idols that you prefer to reference that wouldn't give you the "time of day" if you wanted them to.....

Have you seen me list comments from a commentary as evidence? You won't. I might to contrast how men disagree on the subject but I certainly don't use them as evidence.

And?

I think I'll start again. I did it for many years.

John Gill
But that which is through the faith of Christ; not through that faith which Christ himself, as man, had and exercised on God, as his God; but that which he is the author and finisher of, and which has him and his righteousness for its object;

so Christ is as I stated the object of faith. Other than that I would see little reason to affirm the Hyper Calvinist John Gill

In any case scripture account ones faith for righteousness

Romans 4:1–5 (NIV) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 4:9–11 (NIV) — 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

4x in this passage

The clearness of this passage eliminates any need for another interpretation

Adam Clark

And be found in him - Be found a believer in Christ, not having mine own righteousness - not trusting in any thing I have done or could do, in order to my salvation; relying on no scheme of justification, set up either formerly by myself or by others.
But that which is through the faith of Christ - That justification which is received by faith through the atonement made by Christ.

Nothing there about imputation of the righteousness of another

Adam Clarke decries the imputation of our sin to Christ


The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own.

Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.

Albert Barnes
Not having mine own righteousness - That is, not relying on that for salvation. This was now the great aim of Paul, that it might be found at last that he was not trusting to his own merits, but to those of the Lord Jesus.

I think you read too little of Barne's. he is not speaking of the imputed righteousness of another

And be found in him. That is, united to him by a living faith. The idea is, that when the investigations of the great day should take place in regard to the ground of salvation, it might be found that he was united to the Redeemer and depended solely on his merits for salvation; comp. Notes on John 6:56.
Not having mine own righteousness. That is, not relying on that for salvation. This was now the great aim of Paul, that it might be found at last that he was not trusting to his own merits, but to those of the Lord Jesus.
Which is of the law; see Notes on Rom. 10:3. The “righteousness which is of the law” is that which could be obtained by conformity to the precepts of the Jewish religion, such as Paul had endeavoured to obtain before he became a Christian. He now saw that no one complied perfectly with the holy law of God, and that all dependence on such a righteousness was vain. All men by nature seek salvation by the law. They set up some standard which they mean to comply with, and expect to be saved by conformity to that. With some it is the law of honour, with others the laws of honesty, with others the law of kindness and courtesy, and with others the law of God. If they comply with the requirements of these laws, they suppose that they will be safe, and it is only the grace of God showing them how defective their standard is, or how far they come from complying with its demands, that can ever bring them from this dangerous dependence. Paul in early life depended on his compliance with the laws of God as he understood them, and supposed that he was safe. When he was brought to realize his true condition, he saw how far short he had come of what the law of God required, and that all dependence on his own works was vain.


Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 195–196.

rather

But that which is through the faith of Christ. That justification which is obtained by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ; see Notes on Rom. 1:17; 3:24; 4:5

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 196.

and in regard to Rom 4:3

And it. The word “it” here evidently refers to the act of believing. It does not refer to the righteousness of another—of God, or of the Messiah; but the discussion is solely of the strong act of Abraham’s faith, which in some sense was counted to him for righteousness. In what sense this was, is explained directly after

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 95.