If .. then...

[360watt]

Here is an example that many other commentators concur with:

From gotquestions:

First, the doctrine of the incarnation teaches that Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:7–8, ESV). Thus, “for a little while” (Hebrews 2:9), the Father was greater in glory and exaltation. The Father was greater in that He was not subject to pain and illness and death—the Son was. The Father was greater in that He did not live in weariness and poverty and humiliation—the Son did. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse relates to role, not to essence.

 

[amazing grace]

Again.
'The Father is greater than I' verse was not about ontological superiority. That isn't the context, the subject of the passage.

Jesus was in a lesser position and in the flesh at that stage..but ascended to be one with the Father soon after.

The difference was temporary and positional, not ontological difference.

This is what is said not just by me, but other biblical scholars/commentators.

I do not have to deny what scripture says nor make excuses for what is written.

I don't even know of an earthly family in which the father is not greater/superior than his son which is why Jesus is subordinate to his Father. It's not temporary Jesus was/is always subordinate to his Father.

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he (God) is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. [1 Cor. 15:27]

 

[amazing grace]

Here is an example that many other commentators concur with:

From gotquestions:

First, the doctrine of the incarnation teaches that Jesus “emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:7–8, ESV). Thus, “for a little while” (Hebrews 2:9), the Father was greater in glory and exaltation. The Father was greater in that He was not subject to pain and illness and death—the Son was. The Father was greater in that He did not live in weariness and poverty and humiliation—the Son did. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse relates to role, not to essence.

So, in the incarnation it is believed that God became flesh, i.e. Jesus. Now when a Trinitarian uses Philippians 2:7,8 as Jesus emptying himself what exactly did he empty himself of?
I like the wording of the KJV version:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men . . .
He made himself of no reputation. He did not rely on his title Son of God, Messiah, King but humbled himself and became a servant remaining being obedient to the point of death, even the death on a cross and that is how we are to 'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:' staying humble in obedience to God our Father.

God, aka the Father is and always has been greater, He is omnipotent.

Where does the author of the gospel of John make such a distinction that the 'greatness' spoken of in John 10:27-30 relates to role, and not essence/nature?

 

[civic]

So, in the incarnation it is believed that God became flesh, i.e. Jesus. Now when a Trinitarian uses Philippians 2:7,8 as Jesus emptying himself what exactly did he empty himself of?
I like the wording of the KJV version:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men . . .
He made himself of no reputation. He did not rely on his title Son of God, Messiah, King but humbled himself and became a servant remaining being obedient to the point of death, even the death on a cross and that is how we are to 'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:' staying humble in obedience to God our Father.

God, aka the Father is and always has been greater, He is omnipotent.

Where does the author of the gospel of John make such a distinction that the 'greatness' spoken of in John 10:27-30 relates to role, and not essence/nature?

The Biblical View of the Incarnation relating to kenosis. We know many many times in the OT YHWH restrained using His wrath, Judgment and showed mercy and grace. He withheld using some of His attributes. The same is true of the Son at His Incarnation.

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

Jesus self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19, 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

The Biblical View of the Incarnation relating to kenosis. We know many many times in the OT YHWH restrained using His wrath, Judgment and showed mercy and grace. He withheld using some of His attributes. The same is true of the Son at His Incarnation.

Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.
<snip>

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
<snip>

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.
Jesus self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19, 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

Paul wasn't a Trinitarian. In the context of Isaiah, and in the context of Romans 14:11, where Isaiah 45:23 is quoted, the meaning is to “swear” to the authority of God as Creator and Lord, and in the NT swear to the authority of Jesus Christ as the one who has been given all authority by God. In Philippians - we will bow at the name of Jesus ...... so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Right, Jesus didn't strut around his position as the Son of God, the Messiah, the King of the Jews and use his reputation to his advantage.
Jesus was God, never quit being God, therefore God cannot truly be in submission to anyone. . . .
Yes, all the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus as evidenced with his baptism when the Holy Spirit rested upon him and he was given the spirit without measure.
Right, Jesus did not grasp at equality with God - Adam did.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. . . . Those statements make the whole of scripture a lie especially the conception, birth, death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And as many times as Jesus is referenced a man, a human being --- all a lie.
Jesus always knew He was God ..... He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. . . . Then Jesus also lied pretending to be something he wasn't.
Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Jesus attributed his works to God is Father, the only true God.
His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Jesus was not inherently omniscient, omnipotent nor omnipresent.
Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. ..... Wouldn't it be sinful and deceitful if he was God but HID who he was from the people? But scripture says: He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

So sad . . . . A total denigration of Almighty God that he would deem it necessary to become part of his creation.
A total disregard of all that Jesus Christ accomplished for us.

 

[civic]

Paul wasn't a Trinitarian. In the context of Isaiah, and in the context of Romans 14:11, where Isaiah 45:23 is quoted, the meaning is to “swear” to the authority of God as Creator and Lord, and in the NT swear to the authority of Jesus Christ as the one who has been given all authority by God. In Philippians - we will bow at the name of Jesus ...... so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Right, Jesus didn't strut around his position as the Son of God, the Messiah, the King of the Jews and use his reputation to his advantage.
Jesus was God, never quit being God, therefore God cannot truly be in submission to anyone. . . .
Yes, all the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus as evidenced with his baptism when the Holy Spirit rested upon him and he was given the spirit without measure.
Right, Jesus did not grasp at equality with God - Adam did.

Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. . . . Those statements make the whole of scripture a lie especially the conception, birth, death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And as many times as Jesus is referenced a man, a human being --- all a lie.
Jesus always knew He was God ..... He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. . . . Then Jesus also lied pretending to be something he wasn't.
Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Jesus attributed his works to God is Father, the only true God.
His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Jesus was not inherently omniscient, omnipotent nor omnipresent.
Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. ..... Wouldn't it be sinful and deceitful if he was God but HID who he was from the people? But scripture says: He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

So sad . . . . A total denigration of Almighty God that he would deem it necessary to become part of his creation.
A total disregard of all that Jesus Christ accomplished for us.

Wrong as God personally appeared in human form to people in the OT and said in Zechariah they will recognize Him ( YHWH ) whom they have pierced.

YHWH appeared to Hagar in Genesis 16
YHWH appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18
YHWH appeared to Jacob in Genesis 32
YHWH appeared to Israel in general in Judges 2
YHWH appeared to Gideon in Judges 6
YHWH appeared to Samson’s parents in Judges 13


Malachi 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

Malachi 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zechariah 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

Zechariah 12
A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2“I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3;On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4;On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’


Zechariah 12:10-11
Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ie ARMAGEDDON .

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

He is Emmanuel , God with us. YHWH Incarnate. All the fulness of Deity, God, YHWH is in Him, lacking nothing in His Deity- Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9

next fallacy.............

hope this helps !!!

 

[amazing grace]

Wrong as God personally appeared in human form to people in the OT and said in Zechariah they will recognize Him ( YHWH ) whom they have pierced.

YHWH appeared to Hagar in Genesis 16
YHWH appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18
YHWH appeared to Jacob in Genesis 32
YHWH appeared to Israel in general in Judges 2
YHWH appeared to Gideon in Judges 6
YHWH appeared to Samson’s parents in Judges 13


Malachi 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

Malachi 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zechariah 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

Zechariah 12
A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2“I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3;On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4;On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’


Zechariah 12:10-11
Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the people of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ie ARMAGEDDON .

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.

He is Emmanuel , God with us. YHWH Incarnate. All the fulness of Deity, God, YHWH is in Him, lacking nothing in His Deity- Colossians 1:19, Colossians 2:9

next fallacy.............

hope this helps !!!

Rule of Interpretation: Let explicit texts outweigh implicit conclusions.

Our rule for interpreting scripture is that implications (possible conclusions that can be drawn from something although not explicitly stated) drawn from scripture must always be subordinate (of lesser importance) to the explicit teaching (clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt) of Scripture. We must never, never, never reverse this to subordinate the explicit teaching to possible implications drawn from scripture. [R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God p.74] (emphasis on definitions, mine)

There is no explicit language in the Bible for you theology - nowhere is it stated explicitly - for us there is one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere explicitly stated: God exist in 3 persons; Nowhere explicitly stated: One God in nature that three persons share; Nowhere explicitly stated: God became flesh; Nowhere explicitly stated: God the Son....... need I go on?
No Trinity definition in scripture may be implicit conclusions YOU CAN DRAW from certain passages but no plainly explicit Trinity doctrine/language.

 

[civic]

Rule of Interpretation: Let explicit texts outweigh implicit conclusions.

Our rule for interpreting scripture is that implications (possible conclusions that can be drawn from something although not explicitly stated) drawn from scripture must always be subordinate (of lesser importance) to the explicit teaching (clear and detailed manner, leaving no room for confusion or doubt) of Scripture. We must never, never, never reverse this to subordinate the explicit teaching to possible implications drawn from scripture. [R.C. Sproul, Chosen by God p.74] (emphasis on definitions, mine)

There is no explicit language in the Bible for you theology - nowhere is it stated explicitly - for us there is one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nowhere explicitly stated: God exist in 3 persons; Nowhere explicitly stated: One God in nature that three persons share; Nowhere explicitly stated: God became flesh; Nowhere explicitly stated: God the Son....... need I go on?
No Trinity definition in scripture may be implicit conclusions YOU CAN DRAW from certain passages but no plainly explicit Trinity doctrine/language.

RC Spoul whom you quoted agrees 100 % with what I said in my post. Thanks for the confirmation I'm 100 % correct in my exegesis.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Wilber]

No worries mate - I just like to remind people that the angels are people also, just not fallen and sown into mankind.

Angels are not people; they are spiritual beings created by God. They do not experience death or grow old like humans. They are often depicted as having physical forms, but they do not have true physical bodies. Angels are considered servants of God and are present in heaven, distinct from humans in their nature and purpose.

 

[amazing grace]

RC Spoul whom you quoted agrees 100 % with what I said in my post. Thanks for the confirmation I'm 100 % correct in my exegesis.

hope this helps !!!

I know R.C. Sproul is a Trinitarian, I quoted him on purpose!! I was quoting his rule of interpretation which NO Trinitarian actually follows!!!

 

[Wilber]

I know R.C. Sproul is a Trinitarian, I quoted him on purpose!! I was quoting his rule of interpretation which NO Trinitarian actually follows!!!

Was a Trinitarian.

 

[civic]

I know R.C. Sproul is a Trinitarian, I quoted him on purpose!! I was quoting his rule of interpretation which NO Trinitarian actually follows!!!

I followed it to a tee which is why I'm a biblical trinitarian and not a unitarian.

 

[civic]

Was a Trinitarian.

yes along with Mac and Voddie lost a few good men in the Reformed camp. Those voids will be impossible to fill in their camp.

 

[TedT]

Angels are not people; they are spiritual beings created by God.

ANGELS ARE PEOPLE, PERSONS, because angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD...angel being a job description, NOT a race or type of being.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God, unmarred by sin.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, these abilities also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some angels and the fall of others, the Satanic demons, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some sinning, some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing that which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD, that is, able to be HIS Bride. None were created with GOD knowing they would end in hell but as true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. The fall of the elect into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace. The redemption of His sheep (elect) gone astray into sin, His sinful good (elect) seed, is a restoration to that potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

They do not experience death or grow old like humans.

Humans experience death and age due to our sinfulness, not our creation to be such. The angels do not experience age and death by their free will choice to become and to stay holy before their creator GOD.

I'm curious what will happen when you meet Michael and Gabriel and tell them they are not persons...

 

[360watt]

So, in the incarnation it is believed that God became flesh, i.e. Jesus. Now when a Trinitarian uses Philippians 2:7,8 as Jesus emptying himself what exactly did he empty himself of?
I like the wording of the KJV version:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men . . .
He made himself of no reputation. He did not rely on his title Son of God, Messiah, King but humbled himself and became a servant remaining being obedient to the point of death, even the death on a cross and that is how we are to 'Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:' staying humble in obedience to God our Father.

God, aka the Father is and always has been greater, He is omnipotent.

Where does the author of the gospel of John make such a distinction that the 'greatness' spoken of in John 10:27-30 relates to role, and not essence/nature?

Because in the context of the passage, which isn't about the Father being ontologically greater..Jesus ascends to the same position as the Father.

It's a verse that doesn't stand on its own.

Example: I imagine I'm a candidate for being Prime Minister..

The prime minister of new zealand is greater than me.

Superior? No. In a greater office.

In two weeks ..I will be Prime Minister.

Position difference only.