Humility And Calvinism?

[TibiasDad]

There is a belief that sin is only passed down from the male not the female hence only through the male offspring of Adam . So Jesus not having a male human father who conceived Him was “ bypassed “ with the fallen human sinful nature.

It is passed from the male because Adam is the legal head of humanity, and because Adam sinned of his own accord, and was not duped as was Eve.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of making us "sinful".

If all humans are born "sinful" then what does that make Jesus who was also born a human? Does that make him "sinful" also?

Jesus, being fully human, was subject to death, but being spiritually alive, ie, in direct connection and relationship with God, was not naturally inclined away from God, but rather toward or with God/ that which is holy and good.

Again flesh, in itself, is not evil or good. Those are spiritual conditions.

Doug

 

[civic]

Jesus, being fully human, was subject to death, but being spiritually alive, ie, in direct connection and relationship with God, was not naturally inclined away from God, but rather toward or with God/ that which is holy and good.

Again flesh, in itself, is not evil or good. Those are spiritual conditions.

Doug

Technically since He had no human Father and sin was not passed to Him Jesus could have lived as a man forever. He could not of been in corruptible flesh like every other man. He had no need of the tree of life as Adam needed since Jesus did not sin. To say otherwise would be a contradiction since He was bypassed with the corrupt , sinful nature.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That it is not a translation doesn’t mean it isn’t a correct understanding of the intent of the literal word. The NIV is a functional translation that seeks to express accurately the intent of the original author in modern English; it is not a literal translation but is not a paraphrase.

I don’t find it perfect, and I don’t take it at face value as being the best translation in any particular context. I always refer to the original languages in making a judgement about the accuracy of a particular word or phrase.

Doug

I know... you understand the "intent of the words"...... even when it is literally contradictory to what the word actually means.....

Your statement is nothing more than a "shutup" and "take my word for it" claim.

 

[synergy]

There is a belief that sin is only passed down from the male not the female hence only through the male offspring of Adam . So Jesus not having a male human father who conceived Him was “ bypassed “ with the fallen human sinful nature.

I'll only believe it if I see it in writing in the Bible.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said:


For which you showed no evidence in terms of how it relates to PG. It is your burden to support your proposition.


I don’t have to; it is your proposition that it has something to do with PG.


Doug

You don't have to do anything.....I don't care if you respond or not. You're accepting PG as if it is true when it is a lie. You have never personally established the validity of the false teaching.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where have I quoted Wesley? I have never quoted Wesley in terms of theological interpretation. I share my own thinking, which, in general, is consistent with Wesleyan interpretation as a whole. I try put my own thoughts into my posts, not just regurgitate what others have said. Doug

You are a disciple of the Wesleys. I know exactly what you know because it is "lock step" with the Wesleys.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is passed from the male because Adam is the legal head of humanity, and because Adam sinned of his own accord, and was not duped as was Eve.

Doug

Eve was judged in death regardless of "knowing"......

This is ridiculous teaching.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Technically since He had no human Father and sin was not passed to Him Jesus could have lived as a man forever. He could not of been in corruptible flesh like every other man. He had no need of the tree of life as Adam needed since Jesus did not sin. To say otherwise would be a contradiction since He was bypassed with the corrupt , sinful nature.

His bodily form would have die in the seed of the women. That seed was under condemnation as well.

There is no corrupt nature passed from one human being to another. Just the weakness that Adam had from the beginning.

 

[civic]

I'll only believe it if I see it in writing in the Bible.

same here as the idea imho must exist for augustianism to be true.

 

[civic]

His bodily form would have die in the seed of the women. That seed was under condemnation as well.

There is no corrupt nature passed from one human being to another. Just the weakness that Adam had from the beginning.

agreed I haven't researched the history of the doctrine but my gut tells me its tied in with augustine.

 

[TibiasDad]

Technically since He had no human Father and sin was not passed to Him Jesus could have lived as a man forever. He could not of been in corruptible flesh like every other man. He had no need of the tree of life as Adam needed since Jesus did not sin. To say otherwise would be a contradiction since He was bypassed with the corrupt , sinful nature.

I know we’re splitting hairs here, but becoming obedient unto death is the result of becoming human. His purpose was to die for our sins, and he became that which could die.

Yes, the Son of God could technically have divinely reversed the aging process and lived forever on this earth (which is essentially what glorification accomplishes at resurrection), but then becoming fully human is either not true or meaningless.

He who was without sin subjected himself to the conditions that all other humans have to live under, and that includes death, but no ordinary death, no, death on the cross, on our behalf and for our benefit.

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

agreed I haven't researched the history of the doctrine but my gut tells me its tied in with augustine.

Eve wasn't a begotten descendent of Adam. Just a rib from Adam. Yet, she was judged in death the same. It is the same argument made by Paul when he talks of how mankind was judged in death even though they didn't sin.

 

[civic]

Augustine (354-430 AD): See, here is Ambrose; see what he says about what you are attacking. He says, “He could not alone be righteous, since the whole human race went astray, if it were not that, because he was born of a virgin, he was not held by the law of the guilty race.” Listen further; listen and stop the impudent tongue of your effrontery by shedding tears: “For intercourse with a man did not open the gates of the Virgin’s womb; rather, the Holy Spirit poured spotless seed into that inviolable womb. For among those born of a woman the holy Lord Jesus was absolutely the only one who did not experience the contagion of earthly corruption because of the new manner of his immaculate birth; rather, he shrugged it off by his celestial majesty.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., Works of Saint Augustine, Answer to the Pelagians III, Unfinished Work in Answer to Julian, Book I:66, Part 1, Vol. 25, trans. Roland J. Teske, S.J. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1999), p. 91.

 

[civic]

Augustine (354-430):

For, if no soul is propagated from another, while all souls are enclosed in flesh descended from sinful flesh, how much less credible is it that His soul could have come by propagation from a sinful woman, whereas his flesh came from a virgin and was not conceived in lust, that He might be ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ not in sinful flesh!

See FC, Vol. 30, Saint Augustine Letters 165-203, Letter 190, to Optatus (New York: Fathers of the Church, Inc., 1955), p. 287.

And then again to Optatus five years after writing “On Nature and Grace“:

Augustine (354-430):

In the advice and admonition he gives that I rather apply my effort to stamping out this deadly heresy from the Churches, he refers to that same Pelagian heresy which I urge you, my brother, with all my strength, to avoid with the utmost care, whenever you either think or argue about the origin of souls, so that the belief may not steal upon you that any soul at all, save that of the unique Mediator, was free from inheritance of Adam, that original sin under which we are bound when we are begotten but from which we are freed by our second birth.

 

[TibiasDad]

You have never personally established the validity of the false teaching.

And you are not establishing the validity of your statement that it is a false statement which you made first, nor have you established that PG has anything to do with “puff, you’re there”; whatever that’s supposed to mean!


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

And you are not establishing the validity of your statement that it is a false statement which you made first, nor have you established that PG has anything to do with “puff, you’re there”; whatever that’s supposed to mean!


Doug

I was making us equal. I replied to have this conversation........

 

[praise_yeshua]

agreed I haven't researched the history of the doctrine but my gut tells me its tied in with augustine.

I want to be clear. I know much of what I'm saying is foreign to what the average Christian has heard their entire lives.....

When I say Adam was weak....

I'm speaking of how Adam was not created perfect in the image of God when God breathed the "breath of life" into his flesh. He was not perfectly in the image of God. The "image of God" purposed for humanity through Adam is what those in Christ Jesus will experience in the Resurrection of the Dead to everlasting life. Adam was a "work in progress" when he sinned.

The idea that Adam was in the perfect image of God when he was created...... defies any sense of what we know through fact and revelation. He was simply innocent yet peccable. Capable of sin. Thusly, less than the perfect image of God.

If you can accept this and reject the false doctrines taught throughout our history, it will open the Scriptures up to understanding. These false doctrines are limiting who you are in Christ Jesus.

Mankind was purposed for Eternal Life and nothing less than the offering of Jesus Christ would have ever been enough for man to be worthy of Eternal life.

 

[civic]

I want to be clear. I know much of what I'm saying is foreign to what the average Christian has heard their entire lives.....

When I say Adam was weak....

I'm speaking of how Adam was not created perfect in the image of God when God breathed the "breath of life" into his flesh. He was not perfectly in the image of God. The "image of God" purposed for humanity through Adam is what those in Christ Jesus will experience in the Resurrection of the Dead to everlasting life. Adam was a "work in progress" when he sinned.

The idea that Adam was in the perfect image of God when he was created...... defies any sense of what we know through fact and revelation. He was simply innocent yet peccable. Capable of sin. Thusly, less than the perfect image of God.

If you can accept this and reject the false doctrines taught throughout our history, it will open the Scriptures up to understanding. These false doctrines are limiting who you are in Christ Jesus.

Mankind was purposed for Eternal Life and nothing less than the offering of Jesus Christ would have ever been enough for man to be worthy of Eternal life.

how would you get around the genesis 1 account that everything God created was good ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

how would you get around the genesis 1 account that everything God created was good ?

Innocent is good. Not complete.

There are levels of goodness. There is also varying glories in God's creation.

1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.