How many self’s is God himself?

[Matthias]

A nun (Sr. Mary Joseph Calore, SSCJ) posted the following analogy on X this afternoon.

https://x.com/sscjusa/status/1703401631205781752?s=61

”... when GOD wanted to create man He turned to himself. …”

When I hear the word “himself,” I think of a single self.

God, which surely the nun believes is the Trinity, turned to himself.

When scripture speaks about Jesus himself, scripture is speaking about only one person, not three persons. Jesus is a single self.

When scripture speaks about God himself, how many self’s is scripture speaking about?

Speaking as a Jewish monotheist, my God (which isn’t the Trinity) is a single self, and that single self isn’t Jesus.

So, I’d like to ask trinitarians: How many self’s is the Trinity?

 

[Diserner]

Okay, first off what the nun says is silly and humans are just as physically dependent on their environments as trees and fish in the natural sense.

Self is a bit of an abstract word. Generally people seem to connect it to individual personal consciousness (I was aware of myself).

We see this in the #1 definition: a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

But it is within the semantic range of self to kind of point at a thing—a referent.

We see this when we use the word in such things as "self-cleaning litter box" or "self-pollinating plants."

Must we insist this is claiming the individual consciousness of litter boxes, or perhaps the semantic range is a little more reaching?

The Trinity is a highly unusual thing—and we are talking about God here. There is the temptation to find more parallels than there are to help us feel we can validate or grasp it.

So there is two senses of the word "self" being referred towards God. God is both three and one self in different senses, one in Being, three in Person.

 

[Matthias]

Okay, first off what the nun says is silly and humans are just as physically dependent on their environments as trees and fish in the natural sense.

Self is a bit of an abstract word. Generally people seem to connect it to individual personal consciousness (I was aware of myself).

We see this in the #1 definition: a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

But it is within the semantic range of self to kind of point at a thing—a referent.

We see this when we use the word in such things as "self-cleaning litter box" or "self-pollinating plants."

Must we insist this is claiming the individual consciousness of litter boxes, or perhaps the semantic range is a little more reaching?

The Trinity is a highly unusual thing—and we are talking about God here. There is the temptation to find more parallels than there are to help us feel we can validate or grasp it.

So there is two senses of the word "self" being referred towards God. God is both three and one self in different senses, one in Being, three in Person.

If I‘m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that the Triune God is both three selves and one self. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Matthias]

To the best of my knowledge, there currently aren’t any Catholics posting on the forum. (I hope that will change soon.)

In their absence, I’m posting an excerpt from the writings of a Catholic.

”The doctrine of the Trinity tells us that there is one God, i.e., one infinite mind and will, but that this one and the same Mind and Will is equally and without confusion ‘operated‘ by three Agents, three Selves, three ‘I’s.“

Library : How the Truth of the Trinity Makes Sense of Everything

How the Truth of the Trinity Makes Sense of Everything Roy Abraham Varghese explains how the doctrine of the Trinity sheds light on the larger body of Church teaching.

www.catholicculture.org

This Catholic writer tells us plainly that the Trinity is three Selves.

I was raised Southern Baptist. I was taught by the Church that the Trinity is one Self.

God himself. God himselves?

 

[Diserner]

If I‘m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that the Triune God is both three selves and one self. Is that what you’re saying?

Not in the same sense, that would be a straw man.

There is a sense of corporate singular pronouns, and this is an extremely common not located in just one language.

Just posted in the CNN news is this line:

"But today we see that Russia itself is in need of weapons."

Now, is Russia really just one self?

I personally don't think nations have an identity without the people living in them; you can't just point to barren land and say "That's a nation."

So a nation in fact is made up of it's individual population, and that is more than one "self."

 

[Diserner]

This Catholic writer tells us plainly that the Trinity is three Selves.

I was raised Southern Baptist. I was taught by the Church that the Trinity is one Self.

Modalism is extremely common—and there is not a wide amount of good teaching on this.

Modalism (Sabellianism, and other equal terms) is significantly different but to many people "sounds" just like the regular Trinity doctrine.

They make the Persons into modes or manifestations and thus describe the difference of the three as not based in self, but more like changing costumes.

Here is a nice little talk about the differences (I don't entirely agree with how serious this person thinks it is however):

Modalism or Trinitarianism

We listen to an example modalism

www.spreaker.com

There is a divide among Trinitarians where God has only one will and mind or three.

I am on the side of three, as these are definitional of person, and Christ clearly said "not my will but yours."

Also, I differ with the majority of Trinitarians in believing Christ has only one will instead of two (one per nature) for the same reason.

 

[Matthias]

Not in the same sense, that would be a straw man.

There is a sense of corporate singular pronouns, and this is an extremely common not located in just one language.

Just posted in the CNN news is this line:

"But today we see that Russia itself is in need of weapons."

Now, is Russia really just one self?

I personally don't think nations have an identity without the people living in them; you can't just point to barren land and say "That's a nation."

So a nation in fact is made up of it's individual population, and that is more than one "self."

Thanks.

So thinking out loud about your analogy of God (the Trinity) with a nation: God (the Trinity) is made up of an individual population and that is more than one “self”.

Is that a fair statement?

 

[Diserner]

Thanks.

So thinking out loud about your analogy of God (the Trinity) with a nation: God (the Trinity) is made up of an individual population and that is more than one “self”.

Is that a fair statement?

Yes.

 

[Matthias]

Yes.

Thank you for the confirmation. I don’t want to misrepresent what you said / believe.

I did a quick check for the word “himselves” in a Concordance. There are no occurrences of the word in scripture.

What this suggests to me is that ”himselves” is a post-biblical concept which is, or may be, consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Matthias]

When God (the Trinity) says, “I myself…”, how does the trinitarian know which one of the three “I”s (of the Trinity) is speaking?

 

[Matthias]

Are there any trinitarians on the forum who were taught and believe, as I was taught and believed when I was a trinitarian, that the Trinity is one self; not three selves?

 

[Diserner]

When God (the Trinity) says, “I myself…”, how does the trinitarian know which one of the three “I”s (of the Trinity) is speaking?

It's a tricky question for sure, and I respect that.

We know in certain instances only one Person is being singled out.

Unless there is an overiding contextual reason for that, I read it as the plural unity.

I've never heard the word "himselves" and would not use it as it conflates the two senses of self.

Equivocation always creates inaccuracy and confusion.

 

[Diserner]

Are there any trinitarians on the forum who were taught and believe, as I was taught and believed when I was a trinitarian, that the Trinity is one self; not three selves?

Pretty sure there are some Modalists on the board like charismatic lady.

 

[Matthias]

It's a tricky question for sure, and I respect that.

We know in certain instances only one Person is being singled out.

Unless there is an overiding contextual reason for that, I read it as the plural unity.

I've never heard the word "himselves" and would not use it as it conflates the two senses of self.

Equivocation always creates inaccuracy and confusion.

It’s hard to get the mind wrapped around ”God is three selves but is God himself, not God himselves.”

In the words of one of my college professors, So who said it’s easy?

 

[Matthias]

@dizerner I appreciated your comment about their being a division among trinitarians on the subject. There are trinitarians who support social trinitarianism and trinitarians who oppose social trinitarianism. It’s an intra-trinitarian affair.

Interesting, but frightfully complicated.

 

[Diserner]

Interesting, but frightfully complicated.

Many things are complicated to fully understand, but not complicated to essentially understand.

Spiritual and natural things are like that.

And I think we should avoid any fallacy of "it's complicated so it can't be true."

I can understand the fundamental concept of the atonement without knowing what "Penal Substitution" means, and gravity without know the all about "General Relativity."

Three Persons, One Being, is simple and attainable knowledge for anyone if we don't try to get to the spiritual calculus behind it.

 

[civic]

It’s hard to get the mind wrapped around ”God is three selves but is God himself, not God himselves.”

In the words of one of my college professors, So who said it’s easy?

God is One and God is Three.
God is Divine and God is human
God is Spirit and God is flesh
God is Immortal and God is mortal

 

[Matthias]

God is One and God is Three.
God is Divine and God is human
God is Spirit and God is flesh

The Messiah’s God isn’t.

 

[Diserner]

The Messiah’s God isn’t.

I actually would not entirely disagree, as the word God is not just a being and a person but also an office.

In the sense that the Father is the office of God over Christ, I could equally say the Father is not human.

 

[Matthias]

I actually would not entirely disagree, as the word God is not just a being and a person but also an office.

In the sense that the Father is the office of God over Christ, I could equally say the Father is not human.

“God is an office.”

Would you say then that the Trinity is three offices?