He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Doug Brents]

Nor does it say that the sins of the thief on the cross were forgiven. But we know they were, don't we?

The thief was promised paradise, so we know he was forgiven. Nothing of the kind was said about Naaman until after he returned to Elisha.

Read 2 Kings 5:17-18 and then tell me that Namaan's heart was not changed, that is forgiven.

Yes, his heart was changed, but that is not what forgiveness means.

You're the one making this about the salvation of the three persons in the Old Testament, not me.

I never said anything about them being saved. I said they received a gift from God. And all gifts from God require faith, and faith is not just a mental action. It requires physical action as well, or it doesn't really exist.

You continue to imply that just as it was with them, so it is with our salvation today, that we're NOT SAVED until we do a particular thing. You are wrong.

So says you, but Scripture disagrees with you. I choose Scripture.

YOU ARE talking about life after salvation, which according to you BEGINS AFTER BAPTISM. The scripture says that life after salvation begins after repentance and faith and BEFORE BAPTISM.

There is no "repentance and faith and before baptism".
Scripture says repent and be baptized in order to receive salvation (Acts 2:38).
Scripture says we are saved through baptism (1 Pet 3:21).
Scripture says we join Jesus in death to sin in baptism (Rom 6:1-7).
Scripture says we are united to Jesus' resurrection in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
Scripture says we are clothed with Christ and adopted into God's family in baptism (Gal 3:26-27).
Scripture says we are made pure, spotless, and holy in baptism (Eph 5:26-27).
Repentance is also absolutely necessary to receive salvation (Acts 3:19), but it is not the only thing that is necessary, otherwise there is a lot of Scripture you have to ignore, reject, or rewrite.

None of that happens during baptism, except in your imagination.
Doug said: "Nope, salvation is not any different than any other miracle God has done in this world."
Wow! What a demeaning thing to say about salvation, the ONLY miracle of God that allows us to be with Him for all eternity.
You dishonor Jesus and His shed blood by requiring baptism to avail ourselves of God's salvation.
No ceremony, no soap, no water, and no cleansing agent can wash away our sins. You make a mockery of the blood of Jesus!

Make all the baseless accusations about me that you want. It doesn't change the truth, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

John 3:3 Jesus mentions being born again. If Nicodemus or anyone heard Him say that, the only possible understanding they could have is that He's talking about being physically born - childbirth. Which is exactly the way Nicodemus understood it. vs 4

Yes, that is what Nicodemus understood. And the Jesus disabuses him of his incorrect thinking. "You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?"

Do you really expect me to believe that if Jesus said that to you, that you WOULD NOT think about physical birth? Of course you would. That's the ONLY REFERENCE POINT ANY HUMAN WOULD HAVE TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORDS. Except you, of course, you would immediately know that He was talking about water baptism - Poppycock!

No, hindsight is 20/20, as they say. It is perfectly understandable that Nicodemus would make the mistake he did. But looking at it from the perspective of the end of the first century, having read all of the Scripture that was written and/or authorized by the Apostles, it is perfectly clear that Jesus' ONLY meaning was the rebirth of our spirit through actions of the Spirit in baptism.

You are so obsessed with the lie that water baptism MUST HAPPEN TO BE SAVED, that whenever water is mentioned in Scripture, you immediately think it's referring to water baptism. Baptism is NEVER CALLED BEING BORN OF WATER IN SCRIPTURE. THAT'S YOUR PRECONCEIVED FALSE ASSUMPTION.

Nope. Being born again is a synonym of salvation, as is forgiveness of sin, sins washed away, justification, redemption, and several other words and phrases. Being born again requires both water and the Spirit (John 3:5). Being forgiven requires both repentance and baptism (in water)(Acts 2:38). Having sins washed away requires baptism (Acts 22:16). Being made pure, holy, and spotless requires being washed with water with the Word (Spirit). All of these are discussing the same thing: salvation through baptism in water in which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with the resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

 

[Rowan]

Baptism is not required for salvation. If one thinks it is then they believe in baptismal regeneration. It is what the Church of Christ hold to. Some are so fanatical to the point of declaring any church that uses musical instruments as not being a true, biblical, or godly church. Such dogmatism on a clearly non-essential issue is often the mark of a cult, not the mark of a good biblical church.

And the big one is the fact that some in the Church of Christ claim to be “the one true church,” outside of which there is no salvation.

Although there are some verses that seem to indicate the necessity of water baptism in salvation, the Bible clearly tells us that salvation is a gift that is received by grace through faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ; no external act is necessary for salvation because it is only by divine grace through faith alone.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
Romans 3:22-30

16 yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.
Galatians 2:16

9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
Philippians 3:9

 

[dwight92070]

Given his heart change, not wanting to worship idols and false gods anymore, and the fact that Elisha told him, "Go in peace."

The thief was promised paradise, so we know he was forgiven. Nothing of the kind was said about Naaman until after he returned to Elisha.

There is no peace for the wicked. Naaman didn't want to worship idols any more. Pretty good indications that he was saved and forgiven.

Yes, his heart was changed, but that is not what forgiveness means.

Being saved does bring a change of heart, as well as forgiveness.

I never said anything about them being saved. I said they received a gift from God. And all gifts from God require faith, and faith is not just a mental action.

Yes, it requires spiritual action - repentance and faith. It's deeper than mental - it's spiritual, from the heart.

It requires physical action as well, or it doesn't really exist.

Yes, after salvation.

So says you, but Scripture disagrees with you. I choose Scripture.

There is no "repentance and faith and before baptism".

Sure there is. That's the Biblical model. First repentance and faith, which is salvation, then baptism.

Scripture says repent and be baptized in order to receive salvation (Acts 2:38).

Salvation hinges on repentance, not on baptism.

Scripture says we are saved through baptism (1 Pet 3:21).

No, it says baptism is a figure or a symbol of salvation that previously occurred.

Scripture says we join Jesus in death to sin in baptism (Rom 6:1-7).

No, we symbolize His burial in baptism after we have died to sin in salvation.

Scripture says we are united to Jesus' resurrection in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

No, we symbolize His resurrection in baptism.

Scripture says we are clothed with Christ and adopted into God's family in baptism (Gal 3:26-27).

We were baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, which means we were saved. That is when we "put on" Christ, like putting on clothing, and became a new man. It is a MAN who baptizes us in water, not the Holy Spirit.

Scripture says we are made pure, spotless, and holy in baptism (Eph 5:26-27).

False. These verses make it clear that Jesus cleanses the church, that is believers, on an ongoing basis, by the washing of water WITH THE WORD. As always, wherever you see the word "water", you automatically assume baptism, which is not always the case, as it is not here. The church mentioned here are already saved, and ideally they all got baptized after their salvation, so they are not now going to be sanctified by being baptized again.

Repentance is also absolutely necessary to receive salvation (Acts 3:19), but it is not the only thing that is necessary, otherwise there is a lot of Scripture you have to ignore, reject, or rewrite.

Right, repentance AND faith are necessary for salvation, both are inward actions of the heart.

Yes, that is what Nicodemus understood. And the Jesus disabuses him of his incorrect thinking. "You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?"

As I said, you would think the same thing, as any of us would. If you deny that, you are dishonest. No one had ever heard of the phrase "born again" before, and yet you think that you would immediately understand that Jesus was speaking of water baptism.
Nonsense!

No, hindsight is 20/20, as they say. It is perfectly understandable that Nicodemus would make the mistake he did. But looking at it from the perspective of the end of the first century, having read all of the Scripture that was written and/or authorized by the Apostles, it is perfectly clear that Jesus' ONLY meaning was the rebirth of our spirit through actions of the Spirit in baptism.

What is perfectly clear is that you have given yourself over to a cultic belief - your conscience is seared by the twisting of Scripture.

Nope. Being born again is a synonym of salvation, as is forgiveness of sin, sins washed away, justification, redemption, and several other words and phrases. Being born again requires both water and the Spirit (John 3:5). Being forgiven requires both repentance and baptism (in water)(Acts 2:38). Having sins washed away requires baptism (Acts 22:16). Being made pure, holy, and spotless requires being washed with water with the Word (Spirit). All of these are discussing the same thing: salvation through baptism in water in which the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with the resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

Perfect evidence of your being brain-washed and indoctrinated into heresy and legalistic cultic false beliefs.

 

[Jim]

Baptism is not required for salvation. If one thinks it is then they believe in baptismal regeneration.

That is not correct. Baptismal regeneration is the belief that baptism is the agent of regeneration. That is false. God is the agent of all aspects of salvation. The requirements placed by God upon the recipients of salvation are not the agents of salvation. Faith is the preeminent condition for being justified, regenerated and initially sanctified, i.e., saved. Faith is not the only condition, but it is the most important condition. The conditions for salvation are just that. There are not the results of salvation; they are conditions that must be met by one in order to receive salvation.

Believing that Peter told the truth in Acts 2:38 to his listeners does not constitute baptismal regeneration.

 

[dwight92070]

Peter says that we have born again through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Pet.1:23
He goes on to say "like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word ..." 1 Pet. 2:2

It's more than just coincidence that both Peter and Jesus associate being born again with childbirth. John 3:3-7 Both liken being born again to being physically born in a mother's womb.

Jesus refers to childbirth again in Luke 7:28:
"I say to you, among those born of women (physical birth) there is no one greater than John;
yet he who is least in the kingdom of God (a spiritual birth, born again) is greater than he."

So we have added confirmation that Jesus is referring to child birth in John 3.

Notice physical birth is truly a miracle. So is being born again.

Physical birth requires the man's seed planted in the woman. Being born again requires the seed of the word of God being planted in our hearts.

A person just born again needs the milk of the word of God ASAP.
A baby just born needs his mother's milk ASAP.

There was a point in time when each of us came out of our mother's womb.
Even so, there is a point in time when we were born again, whether we remember the day or not.

 

[e v e]

no baptism in the OT.

It is only found in pagan texts.

added into NT later. Never mentioned by the prophets.

It's a ritual ---
along with that vampiring communion
ritual and all the vatican 'sacraments'

Nothing in the OT or prophets about baptism, communion, correcting souls (except by God), proselytizing, humans saving souls or running missions.

Since the fall God has never changed focus - restoring His souls to eden. If the listed things above were real He and Christ would have said so to the prophets.

 

[e v e]

Also, OT fathers - moses for example - met Christ.

The OT cannot be dismissed under judaism since those were pharisees and judaism is not God's version. God's souls in the OT followed Christ.

 

[Jim]

Notice physical birth is truly a miracle. So is being born again.

Physical birth is not a miracle at all. It is according to God's natural law put in place along with all the rest of creation. A miracle, by definition, is a physical work that stands in opposition to God's natural law that is performed by a human being and observed by other human beings. Being born again is also not a miracle since it is not a physical work, nor is it performed by a human being nor observable by human beings.

The idea that John 3 references physical birth as a requirement for being born again is ludicrous. There is not a single person who does not meet that requirement. Not only that it does not even limit being born again to human beings since all blooded animals meet that requirement. Moreover, born of water was never and is not now a euphemism for physical birth. It occures nowhere in the bible nor in the literature of the times of the bible or since. It is nothing more than a really bad rendering by those who argue against water baptism. It makes no sense whatsoever to what Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus about being born again.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Physical birth is not a miracle at all. It is according to God's natural law put in place along with all the rest of creation. A miracle, by definition, is a physical work that stands in opposition to God's natural law that is performed by a human being and observed by other human beings. Being born again is also not a miracle since it is not a physical work, nor is it performed by a human being nor observable by human beings.

The idea that John 3 references physical birth as a requirement for being born again is ludicrous. There is not a single person who does not meet that requirement. Not only that it does not even limit being born again to human beings since all blooded animals meet that requirement. Moreover, born of water was never and is not now a euphemism for physical birth. It occures nowhere in the bible nor in the literature of the times of the bible or since. It is nothing more than a really bad rendering by those who argue against water baptism. It makes no sense whatsoever to what Jesus is explaining to Nicodemus about being born again.

@Jim.

These four verses tell a story.

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8;The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

In verse 6....Please explain the relationship of flesh to baptism since you are certain the water in Verse 5 is claiming baptism.

Ill be gone for a while... so ill check back later

 

[Jim]

@Jim.

These four verses tell a story.

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8;The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

In verse 6....Please explain the relationship of flesh to baptism since you are certain the water in Verse 5 is claiming baptism.

Ill be gone for a while... so ill check back later

Verse 6, That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit, is Jesus' answer to Nicodemus' question about entering again into his mother's womb. It declares that to be born again is nothing to do with flesh or the physical; it strictly rebuts the argument that born of water and Spirit has anything to do with physical birth. It also argues against the concept of traducianism. To be born again is about the spirit and only about the spirit. And that is a work of the Spirit. The response that Peter gave to the Jews in Acts 2:39 should satisfy your question. Being given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit is the result of the repentant believer submitting to being baptized.

When a child is conceived or born, he receives his spirit from God (Zech 12:1). He, that is his spirit, is born of God, the Spirit. When that child sins, he, his spirit, becomes dead in his sin (Eph 2:1). He, his spirit, needs to be born again, to be made alive again in his spirit (Eph 2:5-6)

As Peter declared to the believers in Acts 2:38. "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (justification), and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (regenerated, i.e., born again).