God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Johann]

Right, now who is "the handmaiden" here?

J.

اللهم، اغفر ذنوب عبدك و راحم ضعفها، و اجعلها من اهل جنانک و ارفع درجاتها، واجعلها من اهل رحمتک و مغفرتک، و وفقها لمرضاتک، و اجعلها من اهل ایمان و امان، و اجعلها من اهل علم و عمل، و اجعلها من اهل محبت و مودت.


This correct @Pancho Frijoles? Arabic or I can give you this in Persian, whatever you prefer.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Any cross reference to the Scripture? And who is the "her?"

J.

The prayer was revealed to be used by any lady.
There are prayers for people in different circumstances, as well as general prayers.
We can cross-reference this prayer to at least five more scriptural texts in which ladies are also mentioned. For example this one:

Glory to Thee, O my God! One of Thy handmaidens,
who hath believed in Thee and in Thy signs,
hath entered beneath the shadow of the tree of Thy oneness.
Give her to quaff, O my God,
by Thy Name, the Manifest and the Hidden, of Thy choice sealed Wine
that it may take her away from her own self,
and make her to be entirely devoted to Thy remembrance,
and wholly detached from any one beside Thee.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

اللهم، اغفر ذنوب عبدك و راحم ضعفها، و اجعلها من اهل جنانک و ارفع درجاتها، واجعلها من اهل رحمتک و مغفرتک، و وفقها لمرضاتک، و اجعلها من اهل ایمان و امان، و اجعلها من اهل علم و عمل، و اجعلها من اهل محبت و مودت.


This correct @Pancho Frijoles? Arabic or I can give you this in Persian, whatever you prefer.

J.

I don't know neither Arabic nor Persian, my brother. Do you have knowledge of those languages?
If you are interested in a deeper discussion, I encourage you to go to the appropriate thread, opened by the Administrator.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/the-baha%E2%80%99i-faith.178/

 

[Johann]

I don't know neither Arabic nor Persian, my brother. Do you have knowledge of those languages?

O my God, O Forgiver of sins and Dispeller of afflictions!
O Thou Who art the Pardoner, the Merciful!
I raise my suppliant hands to Thee,
tearfully beseeching the court of Thy divine Essence to forgive,
through Thy grace and clemency,
Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto the seat of truth.
Cause her, O Lord, to be overshadowed by the clouds of Thy bounty and favor,
immerse her in the ocean of Thy forgiveness and pardon,
and enable her to enter that sanctified abode, Thy heavenly Paradise.
Thou art, verily, the Mighty, the Compassionate, the Generous, the Merciful.



Why the Qur'an is cited in Baha'i Writings:

Respect for all Revealed Scriptures:

The Baha'i Faith holds that all the great religions of the world, including Islam, are part of a progressive revelation. According to Baha'i teachings, each Manifestation of God (like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah) brings guidance suited to the time and place, but all share the same underlying truth.

Therefore, Baha'u'llah, the founder of the Baha'i Faith, often quotes from the Qur'an as well as from other scriptures to affirm the continuity of divine revelation.
Specific References to the Qur'an:

Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently refers to verses from the Qur'an to highlight key spiritual truths or to show how His own revelation fulfills the promises and prophecies found in earlier scriptures, including the Qur'an.

For example, He often refers to the idea of the return of the Mahdi (the guided one in Islamic belief) and the Second Coming of Christ, which are themes deeply rooted in the Qur'an, and He claims that His own advent fulfills these prophecies.
Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an:

Baha'u'llah specifically addressed the Qur'an in a number of His works, including "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Hidden Words". He acknowledged the Qur'an's spiritual authority and, in many cases, used Qur'anic verses to explain or elaborate on His own teachings.

For instance, the Qur'anic concept of the "Seal of the Prophets" (the belief that Muhammad is the final prophet in Islam) is interpreted in the Baha'i Faith as referring to the completion of the Islamic cycle, which is then followed by the advent of the next Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah.
Examples of Qur'anic Citations in Baha'i Writings:
The Qur'anic Prophecy of the Return of the Mahdi:

Baha'u'llah claims to fulfill the Qur'anic prophecy of the Mahdi (the guided one), who is expected to return to lead the faithful in the end times. Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently references verses from the Qur'an that speak of the coming of a new Messenger in the future.
Qur'anic References to "The Paraclete" or "Spirit of Truth":

Baha'is interpret the Qur'anic verse (and the corresponding Christian passage) about the coming of the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16:13 and Qur'an 61:6) as a prophecy of Baha'u'llah. He is considered the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus in the Gospels and referenced in the Qur'an.
The Qur'anic Concept of God's Unity (Tawhid):

The concept of Tawhid (the oneness of God) is central to the Qur'an and is also a foundational belief in the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah reiterates this doctrine in His writings, emphasizing the unity of God and the unity of all His Messengers.
Specific Quotes from Baha'i Writings Referencing the Qur'an:
Baha'u'llah’s Explanation of Prophecy Fulfillment:

In "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" (the Most Holy Book of the Baha'i Faith), Baha'u'llah refers to Islamic prophecies and Qur'anic verses, explaining that He is the fulfillment of the awaited Mahdi and the return of Christ.
Baha'u'llah on the "Spirit of Truth" (Paraclete):

“The Paraclete is none other than Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of Truth, whose advent was foretold by Jesus Christ.” (Baha'u'llah, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Book of Certitude")
References to Prophecies of the Future Prophet:

Baha'u'llah cites the Qur'anic verse Surah 61:6 (which refers to the coming of a prophet after Muhammad) and applies it to His own mission. This verse is seen by Baha'is as a prophecy of the coming of Baha'u'llah.

This correct?

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Baha'u'llah cites the Qur'anic verse Surah 61:6 (which refers to the coming of a prophet after Muhammad) and applies it to His own mission. This verse is seen by Baha'is as a prophecy of the coming of Baha'u'llah.

This correct?

J.

I have replied to your question in this thread: https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/the-baha’i-faith.178/

Now I will return to the main topic of this tread:
God forgives and transforms the life of people without asking them. as a condition, to believe in Jesus deity, substitutionary blood atonement or physical resurrection.

I am close to address Paul, my brothers.
Be patient. It is important, again, to grasp first Jesus direct teachings

 

[Johann]

I have replied to your question in this thread: https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/the-baha’i-faith.178/

Now I will return to the main topic of this tread:
God forgives and transforms the life of people without asking them. as a condition, to believe in Jesus deity, substitutionary blood atonement or physical resurrection.

I am close to address Paul, my brothers.
Be patient. It is important, again, to grasp first Jesus direct teachings

This should be interesting.

J.

 

[synergy]

I am close to address Paul, my brothers.
Be patient. It is important, again, to grasp first Jesus direct teachings

This should be interesting.

I just finished defending Apostle Paul's Epistles from the heretical judaizing onslaughts of Jeremiah1Five. It will be fascinating to see just how closely aligned Pancho's statements will be to Jeremiah1Five's. JWs also have much disdain for Paul.

 

[Johann]

I just finished defending Apostle Paul's Epistles from the heretical judaizing onslaughts of Jeremiah1Five. It will be fascinating to see how closely aligned Pancho's statements will be to Jeremiah1Five's. JWs also have much disdain for Paul.

Well done my brother in Christ-thank you for being my brother @synergy.

Keep the faith.

Johann.

 

[synergy]

Baha'u'llah, in His writings, frequently refers to verses from the Qur'an to highlight key spiritual truths or to show how His own revelation fulfills the promises and prophecies found in earlier scriptures, including the Qur'an.

For example, He often refers to the idea of the return of the Mahdi (the guided one in Islamic belief) and the Second Coming of Christ, which are themes deeply rooted in the Qur'an, and He claims that His own advent fulfills these prophecies.
Baha'u'llah and the Qur'an:

Excellent research Johann!!!!

This is sheer blasphemy from Baha'u'llah, considering himself being the second coming of Christ. Totally inexcusable.

Baha'is interpret the Qur'anic verse (and the corresponding Christian passage) about the coming of the "Spirit of Truth" (John 16:13 and Qur'an 61:6) as a prophecy of Baha'u'llah. He is considered the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus in the Gospels and referenced in the Qur'an.
The Qur'anic Concept of God's Unity (Tawhid):

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. It's not enough that he considers himself Christ, but the Holy Spirit also!?!?

“The Paraclete is none other than Baha'u'llah, the Spirit of Truth, whose advent was foretold by Jesus Christ.” (Baha'u'llah, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas" and "The Book of Certitude")
References to Prophecies of the Future Prophet:

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. This is totally inexcusable.

@Pancho Frijoles : What have you to say about all these blasphemous statements from Baha'u'llah? This needs to be addressed. We will not let up on this.

 

[Johann]

Excellent research Johann!!!!

This is sheer blasphemy from Baha'u'llah, considering himself being the second coming of Christ. Totally inexcusable.

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. It's not enough that he considers himself Christ, but the Holy Spirit also!?!?

More blasphemy from Baha'u'llah. This is totally inexcusable.

@Pancho Frijoles : What have you to say about all this blasphemous statements from Baha'u'llah?

I need to tread carefully, @synergy. I have permission to ask @Pancho Frijoles questions, but I must ensure I don’t overstep the rules of this forum, and I fully respect that.

Johann.

 

[Studyman]

Yet Jesus’ disciples, like all their ancestors, knew that God forgave and changed the lives of those who sincerely repented.
This is an important point, civic, as God did not add requisites overnight.
God’s love and willingness to forgive has been the same before and after crucifixion. The same in Hangzhou, Jerusalem or Chichen Itza. Do you agree with this? I would like to know your opinion.

If I may ask another question of you. I noticed that you reference eternal torment for humans from time to time. You know that I have left this world's religious businesses and sects who call Jesus Lord, Lord and have placed my Faith in God for understanding and instruction in righteousness. It is my conclusion from many years of study and prayer that we humans are born "Mortal", and that Immortality is a precious gift worthy of Seeking, that God Gives to some men, as Paul also teaches in a rebuke to religious men of his time.

Rom. 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against "the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God"; 6 Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds: 7 To them who by "patient continuance in well doing" seek for "glory and honour and immortality", eternal life:

There is many more such Scriptures, but to keep it short, this would certainly seem to teach me that men are not born with immortality, and that God Gives Immortality "To them" as Paul describes.

Now there is a popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religious sects and businesses, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that preaches that God raises "ALL" men from the dead, and gives "ALL" humans immortality, some to a life forever in His Kingdom with Jesus and the Faithful, and some to be tortured and tormented forever in a fire reserved for immortal but wicked angels.

I have come to reject this popular teaching that God raises men from the dead, and gives them the gift of immortality, only to throw them in a fire reserved for the devil to suffer an eternal torment which never ends.

I find sufficient evidence in the scriptures to show that men will be raised, shown the results of their life's choices, and then destroyed as Jesus teaches.

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I can see how a man would be angry and gnash his teeth when he sees what he traded to save him from a little humility and submission to the God who certainly showed him a righteous "Way". But I can't find enough support in Scriptures to believe that God holds such a grudge against His Creation, that HE would grant them immortality just so they would be tortured forever. I believe they will simply cease to exist, having already received their reward as Jesus speaks to in Matt. 6.

Does the Bahi'i speak to eternal life, and a forever torment? And what are your thoughts regarding this issue, if you don't mind me asking.

 

[synergy]

I need to tread carefully, @synergy. I have permission to ask @Pancho Frijoles questions, but I must ensure I don’t overstep the rules of this forum, and I fully respect that.

Johann.

I did a quick check myself and the consensus is that Baha'u'llah did in fact assign himself all those Deity titles.

Exposure of the truth, in all its spiritual forms, is what I believe this Forum is all about. @civic even assigned his team at CARM the name of Team Truth, which many of us were part of including myself.

Excellent job of doing just that!

Keep standing for the Truth, Jesus being the Way, the Truth, and the Life!

 

[Johann]

I did a quick check myself and the consensus is that Baha'u'llah did in fact assign himself all those Deity titles.

Exposure of the truth, in all its spiritual forms, is what I believe this Forum is all about. @civic even assigned his team at CARM the name of Team Truth, which many of us were part of including myself.

Keep standing for the Truth, Jesus being the Way, the Truth, and the Life!

This doesn’t mean you go your way and I go mine-stay close, @synergy !

I don’t have many friends here, and I truly value your friendship and your knowledge of the truth.

Baruch tiheyeh v'shmor al ha'emunah!

Johann.

 

[synergy]

This doesn’t mean you go your way and I go mine-stay close, @synergy !

I don’t have many friends here, and I truly value your friendship and your knowledge of the truth.

Baruch tiheyeh v'shmor al ha'emunah!

Johann.

@civic has set up a terrific Forum here and I hope you stay close here also.

I said it before and I'll say it again. You have a gift for languages that very few possess. You should take full advantage of it and maybe attempt to reach a certain people, like maybe the Jewish people. Maybe write a book.

I have an excellent command of Greek but that's it. You know more languages than that. Sam Shamoun knows many languages and see where that's taken him.

 

[Johann]

@civic has set up a terrific Forum here and I hope you stay close here also.

I said it before and I'll say it again. You have a gift for languages that very few possess. You should take full advantage of it and maybe attempt to reach a certain people, like maybe the Jewish people. Maybe write a book.

I was banned here for a while,a LOONG while @synergy, and only logged back in a few weeks ago. When I did, I noticed my avatar, "Rocky," had been tampered with, and I faced some challenges while I was here-but it’s all good now.

I currently fellowship with One For Israel, where I’m also learning Hebrew, brother.

God bless.

Johann.

 

[synergy]

I was banned here for a while,a LOONG while @synergy, and only logged back in a few weeks ago. When I did, I noticed my avatar, "Rocky," had been tampered with, and I faced some challenges while I was here-but it’s all good now.

I currently fellowship with One For Israel, where I’m also learning Hebrew, brother.

God bless.

Johann.

"One For Israel" sounds like a very noble cause. I wish you the best of luck there.

I might call on you for Hebrew help. Because I don't know Hebrew, I always resort to the Septuagint to understand the OT since my Greek (Modern and Koine) knowledge is very good.

 

[Behold]

I am opening the thread to discuss and refute the commonly

You can't have a True NT Gospel unless you have "Jesus died for you sins"....so that is the Blood Atonement.

And Paul's Gospel does state that Jesus died and was resurrected.

So, as both of those are a core part of Paul's Gospel.......>He says that anyone who disputes this, is teaching a false Gospel, and they are this one..

Galatians 1:8.

In fact, they are an enemy of The Cross, as to deny the shed blood and resurrection, as a part of the Gospel of the Grace of God, is to deny The Cross, itself.

Beware of deceivers who will do that, as they are anti-Christ, and that is a fact.

See, you can't be Anti-Cross, which is to be anti-Gospel, and not be Anti-Christ.

 

[Johann]

"One For Israel" sounds like a very noble cause. I wish you the best of luck there.

I might call on you for Hebrew help. Because I don't know Hebrew, I always resort to the Septuagint to understand the OT since my Greek (Modern and Koine) knowledge is very good.

I'll be more than willing to assist-just give me a call.

J.

 

[Johann]

"One For Israel" sounds like a very noble cause. I wish you the best of luck there.

I might call on you for Hebrew help. Because I don't know Hebrew, I always resort to the Septuagint to understand the OT since my Greek (Modern and Koine) knowledge is very good.

I'm not going anywhere-this Forum is my last stop @synergy.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I just finished defending Apostle Paul's Epistles from the heretical judaizing onslaughts of Jeremiah1Five.

I have refuted through reason and Scripture the claims made by @jeremiah1five that Gentiles were hybrid heritage Hebrews. But even more importantly, I have made clear before @jeremiah1five that any thesis supposedly based on a sacred book should be rejected automatically if it is evil.

As I have said, grandmom's and little children's notions of good and evil come first. The Bible comes second.
The inspired authors of the Bible started writing under the premise that their readers could tell right from wrong... and had a basic understanding of what "mercy", "justice" or "love" means.

So, if the theology of @jeremiah1five proposes that God does not love the Congolese, that we should not love the Congolese, and the only fate of Congolese is a well-deserved and painful destruction... then his theology is wrong by definition, because it is evil. There is no truth in evil, and that applies to the topic we are discussing in this thread.

If you, @synergy, or @Johann or @TomL[/USER] come to conclude that 15 millions of Sikhs deserve to be tormented in hell forever because of their doctrinal views, then your theology would be automatically wrong, because it would be evil... and then you should become the kind of Christians that abhor those views (there are millions of those Christians, fortunately!) .
Of course, what I still believe is that in your heart of hearts you are pretty sure that God, somehow, through a process unknown to you and me, forgives them and transform them and saves them.

It will be fascinating to see just how closely aligned Pancho's statements will be to Jeremiah1Five's. JWs also have much disdain for Paul.

Hi @synergy and @Johann
Hi everyone

It is weird that, when I announce that I will review Paul, Johann writes "It should be interesting" and synergy writes "It will be fascinating"... as if reviewing the direct sayings of Christ, as I am doing, was not the most interesting and fascinating thing for a Christian!
So, as I get closer to review Paul, I want to insist on the obvious:

1. Jesus was not an apostle of Paul. Paul was an apostle of Jesus.
2. Christians consider Christ, not Paul, as the Founder of the church, and the rock of their faith.
3. We don't study Jesus's words as a complement of the theology exposed by Paul. We study Paul's words as a complement of the theology exposed by Jesus.

I hope all my Christian friends agree with me on these three statements.