God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
You start from the premise that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity, that Bah'a'u'lláh claimed to be that Third Person, and hence, you conclude that Bah'a'u'lláh is usurping that. But those are not the premises of Bahá'u'lláh. The concept of Holy Spirit is different in the Baha'i Faith.
You may understandably reject that. I have no problem whatsoever.
What we are discussing in this thread, though, is not if doctrine X, Y or Z are right or wrong. What we are discussing is if God can forgive and transform the life or persons even if their understanding of X Y and Z is wrong. That's the point.
Baha'is may be wrong and you may be right about, say, the nature of the Paraklete.
This DOES NOT mean that a Baha'i who stole 1000 USD from you, and repented, and was transformed into a honest man, is not under the grace of God.
If you believed that such Baha'i cannot be forgiven, would "die in his sins" and deserves to be tortured for ever, then I would have a big issue against your belief. I would qualify such belief as non-biblical, absurd, foolish, perverse, evil.
Fortunately, this is not the case, and you know that God can forgive the Baha'i who stole the 1000 USD and make of him a honest man.
You believe that God's grace is not reserved for Evangelical Protestants.
You are not under psychotherapy or suicidal ideation. You don't see Pancho Frijoles and his atheist wife and his ex-JW mother and his agnostic sister and his new-age daughters as persons who deserve to roast in unspeakable torment forever and ever
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Because I am providing a summary before Paul, as I have stated and as I had promised.
Please let us know of any other text addressing God's mercy and forgiveness that I missed within that range. If you have no other text, please retract from having called it "not good-selecting quoting".
Just to remind you of the context: the passages of my "Core Block" encompass 90% of the time needed to complete the Bible.
During that 90% of time, God has revealed his conditions to forgive.
Indeed, except for the Book of Revelation, the remaining 10% of the time was a more or less parallel writing between Paul and the gospels.
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Johann
Well-known member
So, are you not finished yet? Are you moving on to Paul-his teachings on aphesis (ἀφεσις, forgiveness) and euangelion (εὐαγγέλιον, gospel)?
Let’s remember, the gospel Paul preached is not different from the gospel of Jesus, as they both proclaim the same message of salvation through faith and the grace of God (Galatians 1:8-9, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
J.
I will but I'm in the middle of lunch here. If you want to reply go ahead.
Johann
Well-known member
I'm not retracting anything-every verse has its context. I'm not sure what you mean by 'Core Block,' but I have my e-Sword ready and can search through it in just a couple of seconds.
I understand your approach to reading the Scriptures, but I won’t allow you to deflect from directly addressing the literal crucifixion, death, resurrection, and virgin birth of Jesus Christ, brother. These are foundational truths in Christian doctrine, and I’m seeking a clear answer from you on these points.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
That proves that Baha’u’llah was ignorant of Christianity or he was dillusional. Ignorance is no excuse in this case because it was his mission to absorb Christianity into the Baha'i collective. Who in his right mind would absorb that which he has no idea of? This is irresponsibility of the greatest order.
How many flagrant and deliberate attacks on Christianity are you willing to overlook before you realize just how wrong your man-made Baha'i religion really is?
Johann
Well-known member
Something to remember-
The Bahá'í Faith is a relatively modern religion that originated in the mid-19th century. It was founded by Bahá'u'lláh (meaning "Glory of God"), born Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí in 1817 in Persia (modern-day Iran). He proclaimed himself to be the promised "Manifestation of God" for this age, fulfilling prophecies found in previous religious traditions, including those of the Baha’i interpretation of Christianity, Islam, and others.
The Bahá'í Faith officially began in 1863 when Bahá'u'lláh publicly declared his mission to be the "Promised One of all Religions". It grew out of the Bábí movement, founded by The Báb (meaning "The Gate"), who had claimed to be the forerunner of the promised messianic figure (Bahá'u'lláh). After the Báb's martyrdom in 1850, Bahá'u'lláh's teachings spread, focusing on themes of unity, peace, and the oneness of humanity.
In terms of age, the Bahá'í Faith is approximately 160 years old, having been founded in the mid-1800s, with its central tenets and global following developing significantly after Bahá'u'lláh’s declaration in 1863.
For further reading and detailed insights into the history of the Bahá'í Faith, you can explore their official website or other scholarly sources.
Now-for interesting info-
The Bahá'í Faith did emerge in the context of Islam, and it was considered an affront by many in the Muslim world. The Bahá'í Faith grew out of the Bábí movement, which was founded by The Báb (meaning "the Gate"), who was considered a forerunner to the Promised One of Islam, according to Bahá'í beliefs. The Báb's claims, including his assertion that he was the Mahdi (the guided one in Islamic eschatology), were seen as deeply heretical by the Islamic clergy.
When Bahá'u'lláh (the founder of the Bahá'í Faith) later proclaimed his own divine mission and his claim to be the promised "Manifestation of God" for this age, it further alienated Islamic authorities. Bahá'ís believe that Bahá'u'lláh fulfilled the prophecies of the return of the Messiah in Christianity and the return of the Mahdi in Islam. However, many Muslims rejected this claim, seeing it as an affront to the core tenets of their faith, especially since Bahá'u'lláh's teachings were seen as superseding Islamic doctrine.
The Bahá'í Faith is often considered a separate religion from Islam because it reinterprets key Islamic teachings, but its origins are deeply tied to Islamic thought and eschatology. This relationship, and the perceived challenge to Islamic teachings, led to significant persecution of Bahá'ís in predominantly Muslim countries, especially Iran. Bahá'ís have faced restrictions, imprisonment, and even execution due to their beliefs being seen as contrary to mainstream Islamic doctrine.
Thus, while the Bahá'í Faith does not directly attack Islam, its claims to fulfill the role of the promised Mahdi and Manifestation of God were seen as a challenge to Islamic authority and prophecy.
Maybe we need a Sam Shamoun @synergy? Beginning to see a pattern? Why they are persecuted?
J.
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Sorry, I totally disagree with you
John 8:24 (LEB) — 24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
as you simply ignore and baldly deny what the verse states.
Forgiveness of sins very much depends on believing who Jesus is
You didn't mention anyone following the Catholic Church. Has the Catholic Church failed Mexico? I'm not Catholic so you can be honest with me.
When Christians talk about forgiveness from God we usually speak of it from the point of salvation. Of course, we don't need to know all the facts of that redemptive history to be saved. Who does?
We've gone through this debate concerning non Christians before. For those who are not Christian, these are the Biblical guidelines:
Non-Christians will be judged according to their Good Works, the Law in their Hearts, their Conscience, their Heart, their Mindfulness, their Mercy, etc... according to each individual's specific case. The model remains the Gospel (Cross, Resurrection, Ascension, etc...). Read Rom 2:12-16.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
My friend Pancho. It's too bad we don't have a time machine where we can transport ourselves into Old Testament times when the Jewish Temple and its blood sacrifices for the people's forgiveness of their sins reigned supreme in the life of Jewish Believers.
The Temple blood sacrifice was central to the ancient Jewish understanding of forgiveness from God, serving as both the ritual means of atonement and a profound symbol of future messianic redemption. Additionally, the Temple itself was visually, positionally, and spiritually central to Jewish life and worship.
1. The Centrality of Blood Sacrifice in Forgiveness
Biblical Foundation of Atonement: The Torah explicitly connects blood sacrifices with the forgiveness of sins. Leviticus 17:11 states:
> "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." This verse highlights the role of blood as a substitutionary offering, symbolizing life given in exchange for sin.
Types of Sacrifices: The sacrificial system detailed in Leviticus (e.g., sin offerings, guilt offerings, and burnt offerings) was instituted to restore fellowship between God and humanity. These sacrifices symbolized repentance, purification, and reconciliation.
Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement): On Yom Kippur, the High Priest would offer the blood of a bull and a goat in the Holy of Holies to atone for the sins of the entire nation (Leviticus 16). This ritual emphasized the collective need for forgiveness and God's provision through sacrifice.
2. The Temple’s Visual and Positional Centrality
Geographical and Spiritual Focus: The Temple in Jerusalem was the focal point of Jewish worship and life, fulfilling Deuteronomy 12:5-6, which commanded the Israelites to bring sacrifices to "the place the Lord your God will choose." Its location on Mount Zion reinforced its status as the spiritual heart of the nation.
Pilgrimage and Community: Three major festivals (Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot) required pilgrimage to the Temple, emphasizing its central role in uniting the Jewish people in worship and covenant renewal.
Visual Symbolism: As a magnificent structure, the Temple stood as a visible reminder of God's presence among His people. Its design and rituals proclaimed God's holiness and the importance of maintaining purity in the covenant relationship.
3. Sacrifice as a Symbol of the Future Messiah
Foreshadowing the Ultimate Sacrifice: The sacrificial system was seen by later Jewish and Christian interpreters as a shadow of the ultimate redemption to be accomplished by the Messiah.
The Passover lamb (Exodus 12) symbolized deliverance, foreshadowing the Messiah as the "Lamb of God" who would take away sin.
Isaiah 53 speaks of a "suffering servant" who bears the sins of others, echoing the substitutionary nature of Temple sacrifices.
Messianic Hope in Temple Worship: Many traditions viewed the Temple sacrifices as anticipations of the Messiah's atoning work. The blood of animals symbolized the temporary covering of sin, while the Messiah’s work was expected to bring ultimate and eternal reconciliation with God.
The Eternal Redemption: Prophetic writings like Jeremiah 31:31-34 spoke of a "new covenant" in which sin would be fully forgiven, a hope intertwined with the messianic expectations reflected in the sacrificial system.
4. Integration of the Temple’s Roles
The Temple blood sacrifices were not only practical rituals for achieving forgiveness but also powerful symbols of God's covenant and promise of redemption. As the visual and positional center of Jewish life, the Temple reinforced the people’s reliance on God’s mercy. At the same time, the sacrificial system pointed toward the future Messiah, who would provide the ultimate atonement for humanity's sin.
In summary, the Temple and its sacrifices were indispensable to the Jewish understanding of forgiveness, worship, and messianic hope. Together, they formed the heart of Israel's relationship with God, offering both immediate atonement and the promise of future redemption.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Since you respect what is written in Scripture, particulary the words of Lord Jesus, you will recognize that the interpretation you offer contradicts the 20 passages of the Core Block, adding a new requisite for the forgiveness of sins.
In addition, since you abhor evil, you will reject an interpretation that leads to the perverse conclusion that millions of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Baha’is, Jehovah Witnesses, agnostics, etc. will die in their sins and be tortured day and night forever and ever…
Therefore, I gently encourage you and @Johann, who gave a “like” to your post, to rethink your interpretation
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I’m afraid I don’t understand what you mean. Could you please rephrase?
This post of yours is a great post and I appreciate it.
I may make a short comment later on or tomorrow.
You mentioned a whole assortment of beliefs below. Nobody is Catholic? Has the Catholic Church failed Mexico?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
If Pastor Paul of Tarsus came to your city claiming to be a disciple of Jesus and to preach the gospel of Jesus, you would examine Pastor Paul ideas to see if they are aligned with Jesus’ ideas.
If you didn’t know much about Jesus, you would expect at least to be aligned with the Hebrew Scriptures.
If you didn’t know the Hebrew Scriptures, you would still expect them to be aligned with reason and the ethics embedded in your heart (what I call the morality of mom and grandmom).
Although you could expect Pastor Paul to add details that fit the needs of your church, you would not expect him to introduce radically new ideas… particularly if those ideas were absurd or immoral.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I have cousins who are Catholic, but I don’t know them well enough to say they still are.
Within my circle of friends, though, many are Catholic. I was raised a Catholic, and a devote one.
That's exactly what happened but with the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek OT, not the Hebrew Text. All Diaspora Jews spoke and read Greek so it was the Greek OT that the Diaspora Jews consulted to critique Paul. Paul passed the test and the rest is history.
Paul passed the test and the rest is history.
Why did you abandon the Catholic faith? What happened? I'm not Catholic so I'm just asking out of interest.
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