God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

You accusing the Bible of not promoting the Cross is like me accusing the Quran of promoting the Cross. Muslims would think I've lost my mind if I accused the Quran of promoting the Cross, and it's no different here with what you're doing with the Bible. Believe your Muslim colleagues' reactions if you don't believe Christians.
Did Jesus promote the cross?
No, He didn’t. Jesus, like every prophet of God before Jesus and after Jesus promoted repentance, not the cross.

Indeed, the only time Jesus taught us something about the cross, he did it without any connection to a blood atonement. Did you know that? He talked about the cross as a symbol of personal, individual detachment and commitment to follow Jesus
Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. (Matthew 16:24)

It is Paul who “promoted” the cross, and he did it as a factor of unity between converts of Greek and Hebrew origin. We’ll get into that.
In the meantime, I invite you and @Johann to ask yourselves whether God suddenly changed the terms of his mercy and added requirements.

On that basis, let's explore what's truly at stake here. Forgiveness from God goes way beyond a "I forgive you" response.
I agree. God wants us to become new persons. To change our ways. To become what he wants us to become.
The fact that millions of people from all religions have been transformed from dishonest to honest from violent to meek, is an unequivocal testimony of God’s salvation in all those people. Do you have any other explanation?

It goes straight into our salvation which is the removal of the death disease/curse that all of mankind is infected of, as a result of our sins. Who can truly cure us of death which is what our sins produced? Who will step up to the plate and truly cure us of sin? Who and How??? Elon Musk and his computer chip link to the human brain? Who???
Who? God.
How? By his power. The same power that created galaxies and life on the planet is the power that creates in us a new heart. The Bible shows full confidence in God’s transformative power. Let’s recite:
Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.” (Psalm 51:10)
 
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In your understanding, how important is true repentance towards God in receiving forgiveness?

I imagine a man that steals from other people, and God prepares to put him to death, and the thief says, I repent, I will go and steal no more. And God lets him live, but two days later he steals again, and God catches him, and he cries unto God, I repent, I will not steal again. And God relents. But this man continues to steal when he thinks God isn't looking. Will there not come a time when God knows, by his works, that he isn't sorry or repentant at all? In your understanding, will God continue to forgive him his stealing or whichever commandment he believes unworthy of his respect, without true sorrow and repentance?
Wonderful post.
Yes, true repentance implies works that correspond to the conviction that I sinned, to the sorrow I felt for having sinned, and to the desire (and joy!) of a new opportunity to live without such sin.

I cannot say I repented from having stolen the 1000 dollars if I have not returned the money, provided additional compensation, and taken steps to avoid that from happening again. Certainly, I cannot say I have repented if I am secretly planning to steal again.
That’s why salvation implies a long term transformation of our lives.

When King David wrote Psalm 51, he was not asking only an instant cleansing of his sins to feel better. He was asking a real renewal of his life.
“Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.”
 
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Yes we should keep this to the teachings within the New Testament. This is where the gospel is defined for us.

Actually, God revealed Himself as Merciful long before the New Testament.
The gospel is eternal.
When Jesus spoke about repentance and forgiveness, He was not inventing new concepts.

In addition, the Chinese and the Inuit also knew about repentance and forgiveness, with no Bible at hand. So, Chinese and Inuit grandmothers can teach us one thing or two about the subject as well.
 
I can no longer stay quiet. Pancho posted the Lord's Prayer, Jesus' teaching to Peter on forgiveness, in line with the topic of his thread, which is forgiveness. Why not engage in an honest discussion of Jesus' Parables concerning forgiveness, which is the topic of this thread, instead of trying to "divert" away from the topic of forgiveness, while accusing Pancho of dishonesty? Please consider:

Gal. 6: 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Col. 3: 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Is he not right concerning forgiveness? You can call Jesus God and sing praises to Him with your lips in the Synagogues every week, and preach to the world HE is truly the Christ who died for your sins. But if you are only a hearer of His Sayings, not a doer, and lack the capacity to forgive others, or are even willing to discuss Jesus' parables on forgiveness with a "non-Christian", how are you better than a Pharisee?

" 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

After all, Paul said you will be judged by your Deeds, not Pancho's.



In Romans, Paul poses a question to the Church of God.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Why not? You just pasted a doctrine, a popular doctrine of this world's religious system I might add, that "Jesus' death "ends the hostility between sinners and God."

So why then, in Paul's Gospel, does he say to the question, "Shall we sin because we are under grace", does he answer, "GOD FORBID". That means No! Yes? But in your gospel, Jesus' death "ends the hostility between sinners and God." So whose gospel shall I choose? Why would Paul tell us sin matters, if Jesus' Death "ends God's Wrath against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men"?

Let's let him answer this contradiction between your gospel, and the Gospel of Christ.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?

But wait a minute Johann, you just got done preaching to Pancho that the Death of Christ ""ends the hostility between sinners and God."

But here, Paul is saying that Jesus' Death didn't end God's hostility towards sinners at all. That Sin still brings death to members of God's Church, even years after Jesus ascended to His Father. What else does Paul teach.

17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made "free from sin", "ye became" "the servants" of righteousness.

So then a man can call Jesus "God", and preach in His Name, and have a theology degree in Greek and Hebrew, and preach they are saved by the sacrificial Blood of Jesus, but if they continue to Transgress God's commandments, He said HE doesn't even know them.

So according to the Christ's Gospel, which is worse, a man who calls Him God, who preaches in His Name, tells everyone he is saved by the death of Jesus, but refuses to "Yield themselves" in obedience to God as He instructs?

Or a man who doesn't call Jesus "God", but Lord, and believes that "blood" means Life and therefore they are "Saved" by adopting the "Life" of Jesus as their own, which means they are "doers" of His Sayings and not hearers only?
I’ll ask for your help if I need it, otherwise, you’re not needed, @Studyman.

J.
 
Reality does not dictate God’s terms for grace or salvation.
Reality reflects God’s terms of grace and salvation.
If you deny the reality you observe in the street there is no point in reading the Bible.
Did you know that denying reality is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Jesus constantly used facts of reality to teach eternal truths. His theology is based on the observation of reality.

Reality shows that Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, are INTERNALLY AND GENUINELY TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit into new beings, without a theoretical assent to Jesus Deity, substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection.
Are you willing to deny that fact?

Human experience is subjective and cannot define divine truths.
Jesus used human experience precisely to define divine truths.
The Bible is not the foundation of everyday reality. It is the other way around.
Wake up, my brother.

Transformation in behavior or feelings of peace can occur through psychological or cultural factors, but salvation, as revealed in the Bible, is a specific act of God's grace that reconciles sinners to Himself through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9).
No sir. I firmly reject your proposition.
Transformation and peace are possible only through the action of the Holy Spirit.
Now it seems you are taking an atheist materialistic perspective, adjudicating the transformation of a life to “psychological and cultural factors”

Your argument that references to rituals or confessions are "superstitious" misrepresents their biblical context.
Rituals and confessions become superstitious when we believe they are means of salvation. Since you don’t believe that, I congratulate you.
Others, like our brother @synergy, seem to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation.

5. Transformation without Christ is insufficient.
Transformation without Christ is impossible.

Therefore, we know that a Sikh is in Christ when it is obvious that he has been transformed.
We don’t need to ask him whether he believes Jesus has a physical body. That has become irrelevant, because we know, he knows, and God knows, that such Sikh is in Christ.

Moral improvement is not salvation. While people of various religions may experience personal change, the Bible differentiates between outward morality and true spiritual transformation.
Outward morality is called in the Bible hypocrisy.
Are you calling hypocresy the transformation of a Sikh from dishonest to honest, or from violent to meek?
Be careful with such theology, Johann.
That theology is a slippery slope towards evil.
 
Did Jesus promote the cross?
No, He didn’t. Jesus, like every prophet of God before Jesus and after Jesus promoted repentance, not the cross.
A blunt denial of passages that tie repentance and forgiveness directly to Jesus' sacrificial death.

Jesus explicitly foretold His crucifixion and its purpose:

Matthew 16:21: "From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised."

Mark 8:31: "And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and after three days rise again."

John 12:32-33: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death He was going to die.

These verses show that Jesus consistently taught the necessity of His death on the cross as central to His mission.

Jesus identified the cross as essential for salvation:

Matthew 20:28: "The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many."

John 10:17-18: "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord."

John 6:51: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

These verses make it clear that Jesus understood His death as the sacrificial act by which salvation would be offered to humanity.

Jesus tied discipleship to taking up the cross:

Luke 9:23: "If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me."
Matthew 10:38: "And whoever does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me."
Mark 8:34-35: "If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it."

These passages demonstrate that Jesus explicitly called His followers to embrace the cross, indicating its vital role in the life of a believer.

The cross fulfills Old Testament prophecy:

Isaiah 53:5-6: "But He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed."

Psalm 22:16-18: "For dogs encompass Me; a company of evildoers encircles Me; they have pierced My hands and feet—I can count all My bones—they stare and gloat over Me; they divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."

Jesus fulfilled these prophecies on the cross, showing that His crucifixion was part of God's redemptive plan.

Jesus preached repentance and the cross together: While Jesus certainly called people to repent (e.g., Matthew 4:17: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand"), He also made it clear that His death was the means by which forgiveness of sins would be secured. For example:

Matthew 26:28: "For this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

John 3:14-15: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life."

These passages tie repentance and forgiveness directly to Jesus' sacrificial death.


The Apostles confirm the centrality of the cross in Jesus' teaching:

1 Corinthians 1:18: "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Galatians 6:14: "But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Philippians 2:8: "And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

The apostles' teachings reflect the fact that Jesus promoted the cross as the cornerstone of salvation.
Matthew 27:32-44 – Describes Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross, Jesus being crucified alongside two criminals, and the mocking of Jesus by those who passed by.

Mark 15:21-32 – Simon the Cyrenian helps Jesus carry the cross, and Jesus is crucified with the inscription “King of the Jews.”

Luke 23:26-43 – Simon carries the cross, Jesus talks to the women of Jerusalem, and He is crucified and forgives the criminals on the crosses next to Him.

John 19:17-27 – Jesus carries His own cross to Golgotha, where He is crucified between two others, and His garments are divided by casting lots.

Matthew 27:50-54 – Jesus cries out and dies on the cross, leading to the tearing of the temple veil and extraordinary events like an earthquake and resurrections.

Mark 15:37-39 – Jesus dies with a loud cry, the curtain of the temple is torn in two, and the centurion proclaims Jesus as the Son of God.

Luke 23:44-49 – Darkness covers the land, the curtain of the temple is torn, and Jesus breathes His last, witnessed by all, including the centurion.

John 19:28-37 – Jesus fulfills Scripture by saying He is thirsty, and after His death, soldiers do not break His legs but one pierces His side.

Matthew 27:1-2, 11-26 – Jesus is presented before Pilate, questioned, and handed over to be crucified after Barabbas is released.

Mark 15:6-15 – Pilate releases Barabbas instead of Jesus and hands Jesus over to be crucified after the crowd chooses so.


Significance and Meaning of the Cross
1 Corinthians 1:18 – “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Galatians 6:14 – “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”

Ephesians 2:16 – “And in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.”

Colossians 1:20 – “And through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Colossians 2:14 – “Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

Philippians 2:8 – “And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!”

Hebrews 12:2 – “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

1 Peter 2:24 – “He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; ‘by his wounds you have been healed.’”

Galatians 2:20 – “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

1 Corinthians 2:2 – “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

Prophecies and Predictions about the Cross
Isaiah 53:5 – “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.”

Psalm 22:16-18 ent.”– “Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garm

Zechariah 12:10 – “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

Isaiah 53:12 – “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Daniel 9:26 – “After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.”

Isaiah 50:6 – “I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.”

Psalm 69:21 – “They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.”

Psalm 34:20 – “He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.”

Isaiah 53:3 – “He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.”

Psalm 109:25 – “I am an object of scorn to my accusers; when they see me, they shake their heads.”

The Power and Effect of the Cross
Colossians 1:22 – “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.”
2 Corinthians 5:21 – “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
Galatians 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.'”
Ephesians 2:13-14 – “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.”
1 Peter 3:18 – “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.”
Romans 5:10 – “For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”
Ephesians 2:18 – “For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.”
Romans 6:6 – “For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.”
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 – “but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
Christ’s Suffering and Sacrifice on the Cross
Hebrews 9:28 – “So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”
1 John 3:16 – “This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.”
Romans 5:8 – “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
John 10:17-18 – “The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
Isaiah 53:7 – “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
Mark 10:45 – “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Philippians 3:10 – “I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.”
1 Peter 4:1 – “Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.”
Hebrews 2:9-10 – “But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.”
Luke 24:46-47 – “He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.'”
Redemption and Reconciliation through the Cross
Romans 3:24-25 – “And all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.”
Ephesians 1:7 – “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.”
Colossians 2:20-22 – “Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: ‘Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!’? These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.”
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 – “For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.”
Romans 5:18-19 – “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”
Hebrews 10:14 – “For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”
Galatians 4:4-5 – “But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.”
1 Peter 1:18-19 – “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.”
Ephesians 3:12 – “In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.”
Hebrews 9:15 – “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
 
@Pancho Frijoles

The Power and Effect of the Cross
Colossians 1:22 – “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.”

2 Corinthians 5:21 – “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

Galatians 3:13 – “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ‘Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.'”

Ephesians 2:13-14 – “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.”

1 Peter 3:18 – “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.”

Romans 5:10 – “For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

Ephesians 2:18 – “For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.”

Romans 6:6 – “For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.”

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 – “but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
 
Reality reflects God’s terms of grace and salvation.
If you deny the reality you observe in the street there is no point in reading the Bible.
Did you know that denying reality is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Jesus constantly used facts of reality to teach eternal truths. His theology is based on the observation of reality.

Reality shows that Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, are INTERNALLY AND GENUINELY TRANSFORMED by the Holy Spirit into new beings, without a theoretical assent to Jesus Deity, substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection.
Are you willing to deny that fact?


Jesus used human experience precisely to define divine truths.
The Bible is not the foundation of everyday reality. It is the other way around.
Wake up, my brother.


No sir. I firmly reject your proposition.
Transformation and peace are possible only through the action of the Holy Spirit.
Now it seems you are taking an atheist materialistic perspective, adjudicating the transformation of a life to “psychological and cultural factors”


Rituals and confessions become superstitious when we believe they are means of salvation. Since you don’t believe that, I congratulate you.
Others, like our brother @synergy, seem to believe that baptism is necessary for salvation.


Transformation without Christ is impossible.

Therefore, we know that a Sikh is in Christ when it is obvious that he has been transformed.
We don’t need to ask him whether he believes Jesus has a physical body. That has become irrelevant, because we know, he knows, and God knows, that such Sikh is in Christ.


Outward morality is called in the Bible hypocrisy.
Are you calling hypocresy the transformation of a Sikh from dishonest to honest, or from violent to meek?
Be careful with such theology, Johann.
That theology is a slippery slope towards evil.
I am deeply astonished by what you promote and by the manner in which you read and twist the Scriptures. It is truly concerning that there are not more voices here to firmly refute your claims about religion, particularly your blunt denial of the necessity of the cross, the death, and the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your disregard for the clear teachings of Scripture about the rebirth in Christ is a tragedy, and I know the seriousness of what you are doing, even if others may not. Let me remind you of the severe warnings from God’s Word about falling away from Christ and rejecting His truth:

1. Falling away from Christ leads to judgment:

Hebrews 10:26-27: “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”

Rejecting Christ’s work on the cross leaves no alternative for salvation, only the terrifying expectation of divine judgment.

2. To reject Christ after knowing Him is to trample on His sacrifice:
Hebrews 10:29: “How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?”

Denying the cross, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is an act of outrage against the grace of God and His Holy Spirit.

3. It is impossible to restore those who fully reject Christ:
Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding Him up to contempt.”

Falling away from Christ after encountering the truth is like crucifying Him all over again and treating His sacrifice as meaningless.

4. Christ’s death and resurrection are non-negotiable for salvation:

1 Corinthians 15:3-4: “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.”

The cross and the resurrection are the foundation of the Gospel. Without them, there is no salvation, no forgiveness, and no hope.

5. To reject the Gospel is to face eternal destruction:
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9: “...in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might.”

Refusing to acknowledge Christ’s lordship and His redemptive work leads to eternal separation from God.

6. Denying Christ’s work is the mark of antichrist:
1 John 2:22-23: “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.”

To reject Jesus as the Christ, who accomplished salvation through His death and resurrection, is to align with the spirit of antichrist.

7. Apostasy leads to eternal loss:
2 Peter 2:20-21: “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Those who reject Christ after knowing Him face a fate worse than if they had never known Him at all.

8. Rebirth through Christ is essential for salvation:

John 3:3-5: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Jesus Himself teaches that rebirth through the Spirit is not optional—it is a requirement to enter the kingdom of God.

9. The cross is God’s power for salvation:

1 Corinthians 1:18: “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

Denying the cross shows that one is perishing, while embracing it is the source of true spiritual power and salvation.

Your denial of the cross, the necessity of rebirth, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not only heretical but puts you in grave danger before God.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear that to reject Christ and His saving work is to invite eternal judgment. For your own soul’s sake, I implore you to turn back to the truth of the Gospel, to embrace the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and to recognize that salvation is found in no one else (Acts 4:12).

I do not for a moment believe that the @Administrator is unaware of what you are doing, @Pancho Frijoles. While you may seek to curry favor with him, your voice will ultimately be silenced, for truth will always prevail against falsehood. You offer no scriptural rebuttals to the clear truths presented, instead relying on philosophical arguments that have no foundation in God’s Word.

With each post, you grow bolder in your lies, twisting and perverting the Scriptures in ways that are evident to those who faithfully study God’s Word. Scripture warns about those who distort the truth:

1. Twisting Scripture brings destruction:

2 Peter 3:16: “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
Twisting God’s Word is not a harmless act—it leads to spiritual ruin.

2. False teachers are marked by bold lies:
2 Peter 2:1-2: “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.”

Your increasing boldness in promoting heresies is a clear marker of the behavior Peter warned against.

3. Those who reject God’s truth suppress it in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:18: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.”

By twisting and perverting Scripture, you suppress the truth of God’s Word, and such actions are deserving of God’s wrath.

4. Philosophy is worthless apart from Christ:
Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”

Your reliance on philosophical arguments rather than Scripture reveals the emptiness of your position.

5. God will silence lies and uphold His truth:
Psalm 12:3-4: “May the Lord cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts, those who say, ‘With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is master over us?’”

God Himself will silence those who speak lies and boast in their own words.

6. Scripture is the standard of truth, not human reasoning:

2 Timothy 3:16-17: “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Your philosophical reasoning holds no weight compared to the authority of God’s Word, which is sufficient for all matters of truth.

7. Lying lips will not endure:
Proverbs 12:19: “Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue is but for a moment.”

Your lies may seem bold now, but they are fleeting. God’s truth will stand forever.

8. Perverting the Gospel is a serious offense:

Galatians 1:6-9: “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.”

By twisting Scripture and denying core truths, you bring yourself under the curse Paul speaks of.

9. The Word of God cannot be silenced:

Isaiah 40:8: “The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.”

No matter how you distort and attack it, God’s Word will remain unshaken, and His truth will always prevail.
Your actions may deceive some for a time, but God’s Word exposes every falsehood.

Repent of your bold lies and turn to the truth before it is too late, for God will not allow His Word to be mocked without consequence (Galatians 6:7).

J.
 
@Kermos, brother, could you create a chart showing what @Pancho Frijoles is teaching and how his views deviate from the teachings of Jesus and Paul? It would be helpful to lay it out clearly for everyone to see where his ideas veer away from the truth of Scripture.

Shalom.

J.
 
Did Jesus promote the cross?
No, He didn’t. Jesus, like every prophet of God before Jesus and after Jesus promoted repentance, not the cross.
This is a bold lie @Pancho Frijoles!


The early church fathers (ECFs) consistently taught that repentance is intimately connected to the cross of Christ, emphasizing that His sacrificial death is both the means of forgiveness and the call to turn from sin. Below is a collection of quotations from ECFs on this topic, along with supporting Scripture references they often cited or echoed in their teachings.

Early Church Fathers on Repentance and the Cross
1. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–110 AD):
"Let my spirit be counted as nothing for the sake of the cross, which is a stumbling-block to those who do not believe, but to us it is salvation and life eternal. Where is the wise man? Where the disputer? Where is the boasting of those who are called understanding? For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation, of the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit, who was born and was baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water."
(Epistle to the Ephesians, 18)

Connection to repentance: Ignatius highlights the purifying work of Christ’s passion (His suffering and death on the cross) as the basis for salvation, which includes the call to repentance.

Scripture referenced: 1 Corinthians 1:18 – “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

2. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD):

"Christ took upon Himself the curses of all men, for the whole human family. For the Father of all willed His Christ to take upon Him, for the whole human family, the curses of all, knowing that after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up. He gave Him as the light of the Gentiles and the glory of His people Israel, and He has been made a purification for sins, bringing repentance to sinners and healing the sick."
(Dialogue with Trypho, 95)

Connection to repentance: Justin connects the crucifixion of Christ with His role in leading sinners to repentance, fulfilling His work as the purifier of sin.

Scripture referenced: Acts 3:19 – “Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.”

3. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD):

"He Himself, therefore, bore our sins in His body upon the tree, so that we, having died to sin, might live for righteousness; and by His stripes we are healed. And, in accordance with this design, the Lord declares, ‘The Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost,’ pointing out to them their fall, and calling them to repentance, as John also preached when he said, 'Do works meet for repentance.'”
(Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 17)

Connection to repentance: Irenaeus emphasizes that Christ’s suffering and death were aimed at leading people to repentance and righteousness.

Scripture referenced: 1 Peter 2:24 – “He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.”

4. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD):

"He Himself suffered for our sins, and He has exhorted us to repentance before Him, because He is merciful to all sinners who turn to Him. This is the sole and entire reason He was crucified, so that man may have a pathway to eternal life." (On Repentance, Chapter 3)


Connection to repentance: Tertullian directly links the crucifixion with God’s call for sinners to repent and turn back to Him for mercy.
Scripture referenced: Luke 5:32 – “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

5. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD):
"The blood of the Lord is twofold. There is the blood of His flesh by which we are redeemed, and the blood of His teaching, by which we are fed. His sufferings save those who repent and who follow after His guidance." (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)
Connection to repentance: Clement emphasizes that Christ’s sufferings and blood offer salvation, but only to those who repent and follow Him.

Scripture referenced: Mark 1:15 – “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

6. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD):
"The Lord’s passion shows us that those who have fallen can repent, and that those who sin can obtain forgiveness by washing their sins in the blood of Christ." (The Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise XI, 15)

Connection to repentance: Cyprian ties the suffering and blood of Christ to the forgiveness available through repentance.
Scripture referenced: Hebrews 9:14 – “How much more will the blood of Christ... purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Summary of Themes from the Early Church Fathers

The cross is the central act of redemption, through which sinners are called to repentance.

Repentance is essential to receiving the benefits of Christ’s death, as it aligns the sinner’s heart with God’s will.

The blood and suffering of Christ are frequently emphasized as the means of purification, accessible only through repentance.
The early church fathers consistently root their teachings in Scripture, recognizing that Christ’s work on the cross demands a response of repentance and faith.

Key Supporting Scriptures:
Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations.”

Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Romans 2:4 – “Or do you presume on the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?”

Revelation 2:5 – “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first.”

The early church fathers, echoing Scripture, affirmed that the cross of Christ is inextricably linked to repentance.

Repentance is both the response to and the fruit of Christ’s atoning work on the cross, leading sinners to forgiveness, transformation, and eternal life.

Where will you run to next? You confess you are not a Christian and your wife an Atheist so why should I trust you in your eisegesis of the Scriptures?


Some people think they will go to heaven because, in their estimation, they are good people. Yet Psalm 14:3 says, “They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one” (NKJV). We have all sinned (Romans 3:23). As Jesus said, “No one is good—except God alone” (Luke 18:19).

When the Bible says that “there is none who does good,” it doesn’t mean that people are as bad as they can be or that people are morally incapable of doing anything right. People are capable of doing good things. They can be kind or thoughtful, give generous gifts, and care for the disadvantaged. Even an atheist can be a philanthropist.

However, no amount of “good deeds” can change the fact that all people are sinful by nature. Psalm 14:2–3 explains: “The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.” Only God is good all the time and in all things (1 Chronicles 16:34; Psalm 25:8; Mark 10:18), and He declares that all people are sinful. “Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20). No one is naturally inclined to do what is good or to seek after God.

Paul affirms that Jews and Gentiles alike are under the power of sin (Romans 3:9). He quotes Psalm 14:3 in Romans 3:12: “There is none who does good, no, not one” (NKJV). All people are in need of God’s salvation; the unsaved will pay the consequence for their sin, which is death (Romans 6:23).

Salvation is not based on a person’s goodness; if it were, no one would be saved, since there is none who does good.

The Bible teaches that we can never be good enough to get to heaven (see Matthew 5:20; Titus 3:5). We must recognize that we are sinners who fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23). Fortunately, God made a way for us to be forgiven of our sin and be saved through Jesus Christ. Salvation is based on Jesus’ goodness, and “in him is no sin” (1 John 3:5). While we were in our sinful state, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8), and if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved (Romans 10:9). Christ alone was good enough to earn heaven, and He declares righteous those who trust in Him for salvation (Romans 1:17).

There is none who does good is a universal indictment of mankind. No one lives up to God’s standard of righteousness; everyone lives in a state of depravity. Everyone has turned from God and His rule, from truth into error, from rightness into sin, and from wisdom into foolishness. While people can do good things, none of their good deeds are inherently good, untinged or unaffected by sin, and none of those good deeds are good enough to undo the penalty of sin. The only One who is good, God Himself, offers the free gift of salvation to all who believe (Ephesians 2:8–9) and invites everyone to “taste and see that the Lord is good” (Psalm 34:8).

All your claims refuted.

J.
 
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The Bahá'í Faith, while emphasizing moral and spiritual transformation, does not align with the Christian doctrine of repentance being inextricably linked to the cross of Jesus.

The Bahá'í teachings recognize the need for spiritual renewal, but they interpret salvation and repentance through a framework that differs significantly from the biblical perspective on Christ’s atoning work.

1. Christian Understanding of Repentance and the Cross:
In Christian doctrine, repentance is directly tied to the cross of Jesus Christ, as His death is viewed as the atoning sacrifice for sin. Repentance, in this context, is both a turning away from sin and a turning toward God in faith, acknowledging the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice. Key scriptures make this connection clear:

Matthew 4:17: "From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.'"

Here, repentance is linked to the gospel message of salvation, which is fulfilled through Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross.

Luke 24:46–47: "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations."

Jesus Himself ties repentance to His own death and resurrection, showing that the repentance of individuals is made possible through His sacrificial work.

Romans 6:3-4: "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."

Repentance involves a transformation that is made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ. It is a recognition that the old self is crucified with Christ, and a new life is given through His sacrifice.

2. The Bahá'í Perspective on Repentance and Jesus:

The Bahá'í Faith acknowledges Jesus Christ as a divine figure, but it views His death and resurrection differently from Christianity. In Bahá'í theology, Jesus' role is seen more as that of a teacher and spiritual guide, whose teachings are part of a broader process of spiritual growth across various religious traditions. The Bahá'í Faith does not place the same emphasis on Christ's sacrificial atonement for sin, nor does it view repentance as necessarily linked to His cross in the way that Christian doctrine does.

Repentance in Bahá'í Theology: Repentance in the Bahá'í Faith is seen as a turning toward God and striving to live in accordance with divine will. It focuses on spiritual transformation through prayer, reflection, and personal growth. However, there is no explicit link to a sacrificial atonement through Jesus' death.

Bahá'í Teaching on Jesus' Role: Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, teaches that all major religions, including Christianity, are part of a progressive revelation from God. While Jesus is revered as a Manifestation of God, His death is not viewed as the necessary atonement for humanity's sins. Instead, the emphasis is on the transformative power of God's message, which includes Jesus' teachings, but not on His crucifixion as a pivotal event for repentance or salvation.

3. Contrasting Views on Repentance and Atonement:
In Christianity, repentance is inseparable from the understanding that Jesus' death on the cross paid the penalty for human sin. The necessity of His sacrifice is rooted in the belief that humanity is inherently sinful and cannot be reconciled to God apart from Christ's atoning work (Romans 5:8-11; 1 Peter 3:18).

In the Bahá'í Faith, while repentance is seen as important for spiritual growth, it is not directly connected to the death of Jesus or any other specific sacrificial act. Repentance is about striving to align one's life with God's will, but the atoning work of Christ's crucifixion is not central to this process.

4. The Danger of Disregarding the Cross (From a Christian Perspective):
From a Christian point of view, disregarding the centrality of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is seen as a denial of the core of the gospel message. The Apostle Paul expresses this clearly in 1 Corinthians 1:18:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

This verse illustrates that the message of the cross is central to the Christian faith, and rejecting its significance undermines the entire purpose of Christ’s mission on earth.

In Romans 10:9-10, Paul also teaches that confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in His resurrection from the dead are essential for salvation. These actions are rooted in repentance, which is inseparable from acknowledging the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross:

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

While the Bahá'í Faith emphasizes moral and spiritual transformation, its understanding of repentance and salvation does not align with the biblical teaching that repentance is directly tied to the cross of Jesus. For Christians, the cross is not only the foundation for repentance but also the only means by which sinners can be reconciled to God. To reject the atoning work of Christ's crucifixion is, in Christian theology, to deny the very means of salvation. The Bahá'í Faith, while revering Jesus as a teacher, does not hold to the necessity of His death for human salvation in the way that Scripture teaches, which creates a significant theological divide between the two faiths.

J.
 
Did Jesus promote the cross?
No, He didn’t. Jesus, like every prophet of God before Jesus and after Jesus promoted repentance, not the cross.
This is totally outrageous. You're already buried under an avalanche of verses courtesy of @Johann proving that you are denying reality.

If I had done something similar to Muslims, like trying to convince them that the Quran promotes the Cross, my sanity would immediately be called into question by them. Since you revere Islamic behavior permit me to emulate it and call into question your perception of reality, at least as far as the Cross being central to Christianity is concerned.
 
This is totally outrageous. You're already buried under an avalanche of verses courtesy of @Johann proving that you are denying reality.

If I had done something similar to Muslims, like trying to convince them that the Quran promotes the Cross, my sanity would immediately be called into question by them. Since you revere Islamic behavior permit me to emulate it and call into question your perception of reality, at least as far as the Cross being central to Christianity is concerned.
What I would like to see is more members stepping up and standing united against this individual's boldness in twisting the Scriptures. @synergy

J.
 
Actually, God revealed Himself as Merciful long before the New Testament.
The gospel is eternal.
When Jesus spoke about repentance and forgiveness, He was not inventing new concepts.

In addition, the Chinese and the Inuit also knew about repentance and forgiveness, with no Bible at hand. So, Chinese and Inuit grandmothers can teach us one thing or two about the subject as well.
The gospel of Christ began after His death and resurrection. The disciples did not even understand it until His resurrection from the dead.

I addressed the gospel in posts 19-22

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet. The disciples didn't understand the Passion until after His Resurrection, they were in denial.

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.” — John 13:7,19

After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. John 2:22

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. — Matthew 16:21

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!” — Matthew 20:17-19

After His Resurrection

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. — Luke 24:25-27

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.Luke 24:44-45

Are you teaching others the one true Gospel ?

Ones salvation depends upon the one true gospel !

The gospel is Christological or Christ centered. The message is about Jesus. So, the question becomes one of identity. Who is Jesus? Let’s see what Scripture declares about the identity of Jesus and the salvation message. We see in the opening of Matthews’s gospel that Jesus is identified as Immanuel which means literally that God is with us. In Luke’s gospel we see that Jesus was born the Savior of the world. In John’s gospel we read that the Word was with God and the Word became flesh. We beheld His Glory. We also read in the same gospel (meaning good news) that God sent His Son to be the Savior. Where did He send Him from? Jesus gives us the answer to the question in John 17:5. He was together with the Father before creation and shared His Glory which is Gods alone. Jesus also tells His followers why do you ask to see the Father? To see Me is to see the Father. The Father and I are One. Basically, He is telling them He is God, you are looking at Him. This is why the Pharisees tried to stone Him on many occasions for claiming to be God (see John 8:56-60)

Also, we see the His Apostles identify Jesus as God. Thomas in John 20:28. Paul in Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13. Peter in 2 Peter 1:1,11. Hebrews 1-2, Jude and John in 1 John 1 and 5:20. Also the entire book of Revelation.

Acts it declares there is no other name given by which men must be saved! Not the name of the Father, not the name of the H.S. but the name of Jesus who represents the Godhead.

So, the gospel is Christ centered and one must know in whom they are placing their faith in to be saved.

Can I place my faith in Paul and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Peter and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Mary and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the pope and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Father and be saved?
Can I place my faith in a god and be saved?

The answer to the above is a resounding no according to Scripture. There is no other name by which men must be saved period, end of story.

So, one must know and understand who the gospel is about and what He did for us. He came from heaven as God( the Word was God John 1:1, the Word became flesh John 1:14) to earth as a man to die for the sins of the world. This is the gospel by which men must be saved. He rose from the dead by the power of the Godhead (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) together raised Jesus the man from the dead.

hope this helps,
 
This is totally outrageous. You're already buried under an avalanche of verses courtesy of @Johann proving that you are denying reality.

If I had done something similar to Muslims, like trying to convince them that the Quran promotes the Cross, my sanity would immediately be called into question by them. Since you revere Islamic behavior permit me to emulate it and call into question your perception of reality, at least as far as the Cross being central to Christianity is concerned.
He is not going to answer your question but deflect and question you with analogies @synergy.


Jewish Methods of Interpretation:
Jewish tradition has developed a sophisticated and multi-layered system of biblical exegesis. The primary methods of Jewish interpretation are grounded in the Midrashic tradition, and more specifically, the following four modes:

Peshat (פשט): This is the literal or plain meaning of the text. Peshat seeks to understand the text as it was originally intended, without much focus on allegorical or mystical interpretations. It is the most straightforward and literal level of interpretation.

Remez (רמז): This level of interpretation looks for hints, allusions, or deeper meanings within the text. Remez connects the text to other parts of Scripture, finding intertextual references that may not be immediately obvious but are understood to carry significant meaning or symbolism. This mode involves interpreting the Scripture in a way that may suggest connections to broader or hidden truths.

Derash (דרש): This interpretive mode seeks to derive lessons and teachings from the text. It is the homiletic or ethical dimension of interpretation. Derash often involves rabbinic stories, parables, and creative exegesis to explore the moral, ethical, or legal implications of the text. Derash is more interpretive and can involve extrapolating lessons that go beyond the plain text to apply in different contexts.

Sod (סוד): The deepest level of interpretation, this is the mystical or secret meaning of the text. The Sod level seeks to uncover hidden truths, often associated with Kabbalistic teachings and the mystical traditions of Judaism. The focus here is on symbolic, spiritual, and esoteric meanings, which are seen as truths accessible only to those with deep spiritual insight.

These four methods are often referred to collectively as the PaRDeS (פַּרְדֵּס), an acronym derived from the first letters of each of these methods:

Peshat (literal)
Remez (hint or allusion)
Derash (homiletical or ethical)
Sod (mystical)

Comparison of Bahá'í and Jewish Interpretation:
Literal vs. Symbolic: In Jewish tradition, the Peshat method focuses on the literal meaning of the text, while in the Bahá'í Faith, there is a stronger emphasis on symbolic interpretation, especially when interpreting the Bible and other religious texts. For example, while Jews may accept the Peshat meaning of the prophecies in the Hebrew Bible, Bahá'ís might view these prophecies as allegorical, pointing to the coming of Bahá'u'lláh rather than a literal future event.

Progressive Revelation vs. Continuity of Tradition: The Bahá'í Faith embraces the idea of progressive revelation, meaning that each religion builds upon the other. This differs from Jewish tradition, where there is a strong emphasis on the continuity of tradition and the importance of the Torah as an eternal and unchanging document. In Bahá'í belief, the interpretation of Scripture must evolve to align with the latest revelation.

Role of Authorized Interpreters: In the Bahá'í Faith, there is a clear distinction between the interpretation of the sacred text by the appointed figures (Bahá'u'lláh, `Abdu'l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi) and individual believers. This contrasts with Jewish tradition, where interpretation is often communal and can involve a wide range of rabbis and scholars offering different perspectives.

Mystical Interpretation: Both traditions have a mystical component, with Jewish Kabbalistic traditions focusing on the Sod (secret) interpretation and Bahá'í teachings often drawing upon spiritual and symbolic interpretations. However, Bahá'í interpretation is generally less focused on hidden, mystical teachings and more on the broader, practical spiritual message that is meant to guide humanity’s moral and ethical behavior.

--and to make matters worse they don't HAVE a Bible but a collection of writings on par with the Quran.

J.
 
The gospel of Christ began after His death and resurrection. The disciples did not even understand it until His resurrection from the dead.

I addressed the gospel in posts 19-22

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet. The disciples didn't understand the Passion until after His Resurrection, they were in denial.

Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.” — John 13:7,19

After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. John 2:22

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. — Matthew 16:21

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!” — Matthew 20:17-19

After His Resurrection

He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. — Luke 24:25-27

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.Luke 24:44-45

Are you teaching others the one true Gospel ?

Ones salvation depends upon the one true gospel !

The gospel is Christological or Christ centered. The message is about Jesus. So, the question becomes one of identity. Who is Jesus? Let’s see what Scripture declares about the identity of Jesus and the salvation message. We see in the opening of Matthews’s gospel that Jesus is identified as Immanuel which means literally that God is with us. In Luke’s gospel we see that Jesus was born the Savior of the world. In John’s gospel we read that the Word was with God and the Word became flesh. We beheld His Glory. We also read in the same gospel (meaning good news) that God sent His Son to be the Savior. Where did He send Him from? Jesus gives us the answer to the question in John 17:5. He was together with the Father before creation and shared His Glory which is Gods alone. Jesus also tells His followers why do you ask to see the Father? To see Me is to see the Father. The Father and I are One. Basically, He is telling them He is God, you are looking at Him. This is why the Pharisees tried to stone Him on many occasions for claiming to be God (see John 8:56-60)

Also, we see the His Apostles identify Jesus as God. Thomas in John 20:28. Paul in Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13. Peter in 2 Peter 1:1,11. Hebrews 1-2, Jude and John in 1 John 1 and 5:20. Also the entire book of Revelation.

Acts it declares there is no other name given by which men must be saved! Not the name of the Father, not the name of the H.S. but the name of Jesus who represents the Godhead.

So, the gospel is Christ centered and one must know in whom they are placing their faith in to be saved.

Can I place my faith in Paul and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Peter and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Mary and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the pope and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Father and be saved?
Can I place my faith in a god and be saved?

The answer to the above is a resounding no according to Scripture. There is no other name by which men must be saved period, end of story.

So, one must know and understand who the gospel is about and what He did for us. He came from heaven as God( the Word was God John 1:1, the Word became flesh John 1:14) to earth as a man to die for the sins of the world. This is the gospel by which men must be saved. He rose from the dead by the power of the Godhead (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) together raised Jesus the man from the dead.

hope this helps,
Amen! Didn't see the edit-

The key to understanding the gospel is to know why it’s good news. To do that, we must start with the bad news. The Old Testament Law was given to Israel during the time of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:1). The Law can be thought of as a measuring stick, and sin is anything that falls short of “perfect” according to that standard. The righteous requirement of the Law is so stringent that no human being could possibly follow it perfectly, in letter or in spirit. Despite our “goodness” or “badness” relative to each other, we are all in the same spiritual boat—we have sinned, and the punishment for sin is death, i.e. separation from God, the source of life (Romans 3:23). In order for us to go to heaven, God’s dwelling place and the realm of life and light, sin must be somehow removed or paid for. The Law established the fact that cleansing from sin can only happen through the bloody sacrifice of an innocent life (Hebrews 9:22).

The gospel involves Jesus’ death on the cross as the sin offering to fulfill the Law’s righteous requirement (Romans 8:3–4; Hebrews 10:5–10). Under the Law, animal sacrifices were offered year after year as a reminder of sin and a symbol of the coming sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:3–4). When Christ offered Himself at Calvary, that symbol became a reality for all who would believe (Hebrews 10:11–18). The work of atonement is finished now, and that’s good news.

The gospel also involves Jesus’ resurrection on the third day. “He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus conquered sin and death (sin’s penalty) is good news, indeed. The fact that He offers to share that victory with us is the greatest news of all (John 14:19).

The elements of the gospel are clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:3–6, a key passage concerning the good news of God: “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living.” Notice, first, that Paul “received” the gospel and then “passed it on”; this is a divine message, not a man-made invention. Second, the gospel is “of first importance.” Everywhere the apostles went, they preached the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Third, the message of the gospel is accompanied by proofs: Christ died for our sins (proved by His burial), and He rose again the third day (proved by the eyewitnesses). Fourth, all this was done “according to the Scriptures”; the theme of the whole Bible is the salvation of mankind through Christ. The Bible is the gospel.

“I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile” (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a bold message, and we are not ashamed of proclaiming it. It is a powerful message, because it is God’s good news. It is a saving message, the only thing that can truly reform the human heart. It is a universal message, for Jews and Gentiles both. And the gospel is received by faith; salvation is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8–9).

The gospel is the good news that God loves the world enough to give His only Son to die for our sin (John 3:16). The gospel is good news because our salvation and eternal life and home in heaven are guaranteed through Christ (John 14:1–4). “He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you” (1 Peter 1:3–4).

The gospel is good news when we understand that we do not (and cannot) earn our salvation; the work of redemption and justification is complete, having been finished on the cross (John 19:30). Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2). The gospel is the good news that we, who were once enemies of God, have been reconciled by the blood of Christ and adopted into the family of God (Romans 5:10; John 1:12). “See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!” (1 John 3:1). The gospel is the good news that “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

To reject the gospel is to embrace the bad news. Condemnation before God is the result of a lack of faith in the Son of God, God’s only provision for salvation. “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son” (John 3:17–18). God has given a doomed world good news: the Gospel of Jesus Christ!


J.
 
Can I place my faith in Paul and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Peter and be saved?
Can I place my faith in Mary and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the pope and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Holy Spirit and be saved?
Can I place my faith in the Father and be saved?
Can I place my faith in a god and be saved?

The answer to the above is a resounding no according to Scripture. There is no other name by which men must be saved period, end of story.
 
Ignorant of Jesus’ Death, burial, and resurrection
1. Matthew 16:21-22 – Jesus first began to tell them of his death and yet Peter tried to prevent it.

2. Mark 8:31-32 – Another account of Peter rebuking the Lord for speaking about his death.

3. Mark 9:31-32 – After hearing about the death and resurrection of Jesus the disciples “understood not and were afraid to ask him”

4. Luke 9:44-45 – “But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.”

5. Luke 18:31-34 – “And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.”

6. John 2:21-22 – They did not understand the resurrection until after it happened.

Disbelief in the Resurrection

7. Mark 16:5-14 – The ladies were afraid when they found the tomb empty. The disciples did not believe after two witnesses testified of the resurrection.

8. Luke 24:1-4 – The ladies were perplexed about what had happened to Jesus.

9. Luke 24:8-12 – The stories of Jesus’ “disappearance” were idle tales. Peter wondered what happened.

10. John 20:2 – Mary Magdalene thought someone had stolen Jesus after he had resurrected.

11. John 20:7-9 – The disciples after seeing the empty tomb believed Mary that someone had stolen Jesus. They did not know about the resurrection yet.
Did not understand the cross for salvation

12. John 20:21-23 – Even after the resurrection, the disciples did not understand what it accomplished. Here they are given the authority to remit sins.

13. Acts 3:14-15 – The crucifixion was presented as a murder indictment to Israel at Pentecost. The resurrection as a warning that he would return to seek vengeance.

14. Acts 5:28 – Instead of the blood being payment for sins it was presented as the evidence of guilty murderers.

15. Acts 7:52 – Stephen accuses the rulers of betrayal and murder of the Just One.

16. Acts 10:39 – According to Paul’s gospel Christ died willingly in the place of sinners. According to Peter he died because he was slain by certain Jews. Could it be that Peter does not yet understand the mystery of the cross?
Conclusions:

This list does not prove that the Twelve were disobedient to the gospel that was presented to them. Contrarily, they were some of the first believers in the gospel of the kingdom. They were among the faithful remnant of Israel who trusted that Jesus was the Son of God and promised Messiah.
However, these verses show that the gospel they knew and trusted was not the preaching of the cross that Paul taught. Whereas they knew Jesus Christ as Messiah to Israel, Paul would later teach Jesus Christ on the cross as payment for sins to Gentiles.

The preaching of the cross was offered for salvation first through the Apostle Paul as the Lord revealed the meaning of the death, burial, and resurrection. The Twelve apostles were ignorant of this message.

J.
 
What I would like to see is more members stepping up and standing united against this individual's boldness in twisting the Scriptures. @synergy

J.

I will be glad to exchange views with as many Forum members as possible.
The Scriptures I have quoted are there and do not change. I have not twisted them. They address the issue explicitly. If someone has a different interpretation for the passages I’ve quoted, please share it.
The reality of forgiven and transformed men from all religions is also there and does not change. I am one of those men.
 
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